Deepfake Porn, Break Ups & Mental Health with Jennifer Savin | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: discussion of suicide from the beginning of the episode
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host Hannah Witton. This week I am joined by Jennifer Savin. Jennifer is a Cosmopolitan UK award-winning Features Editor whose work regularly sees her go undercover to explore and expose issues important to young women today.
She is passionate about covering mental health, often writing personal pieces about anxiety and depression, cultural trends, and feminist issues. She regularly campaigns for abortion rights, recently helping persuade MPs to vote in favour of keeping the option of pills by post abortions in England, and intimate image abuse such as the threat of revenge porn. Jennifer's recent report on the deepfake porn epidemic was featured in a BBC documentary, Deepfake Porn: Could You Be Next, which she also acted as a consultant on. I wanted to get Jennifer on the show to share some of what she's learned about deepfake porn and personal advice she's learned about how breakups can impact mental health.
Jennifer and I chatted all about deepfake porn: what it is, why women are more likely to be impacted by deep fake porn, and how a friend being a victim of it made Jennifer wants to deep dive research into it. We discussed the complicated balance between protecting yourself from internet image abuse whilst not censoring yourself as a woman online. Jennifer told me about what current laws look like around deepfake porn and how they are essentially non existent. However, since recording this interview the government announced plans to make sharing nonconsensual, deepfake porn images illegal so we shall see what happens there. We talked about how long it can take for laws to catch up with technology but also how some revenge porn laws have helped people who've been victim of deepfaking.
We also got into the interaction of dating, breakups, and mental health. Jennifer spoke from personal experiences how if you are predisposed to mental health conditions, how a breakup can be incredibly damaging for people and exacerbate your condition. Jennifer talked about how, after one really difficult breakup, she attempted to take her life through an overdose, and we discussed why we need to take breakups seriously and not dismiss people's pain and experiences when the pain of breakups can be extremely damaging and risky.
Jennifer shared her advice for breakup mental health care, and how each experience of a breakup will totally vary, depending on the unique relationship and breakup itself. We discuss whether you can or should avoid being in contact with exes after breakups, and Jennifer spoke about her belief of taking a detox period after any breakup. She also talked about how therapy is so helpful after a breakup and the importance of not staying silent and letting people know how you feel, asking for care and support. Jennifer also emphasised a need to strip things back to the basics after a breakup, whether eating in a way that makes you feel good, being cautious about how much alcohol you drink, exercising, getting enough sleep, and really prioritising the fundamentals to help care for yourself.
I really enjoyed this chat and discussing with Jennifer how complicated it is finding the balance between protecting yourself as a woman online, but also not censoring yourself.
Please note, we do talk about suicide in this episode so take care of yourself before listening or just skip this one entirely if you need to.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Instagram @doingitpodcast. If you like this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really appreciated.
And we have a special bonus Patreon episode for you up as well. After we finished recording this interview with Jennifer, me and my producer Mia hopped on a call and asked hey, so how was that for you? And you can find our little Doing It debrief and look into the behind the scenes of making the podcast over on patreon.com/hannahwitton. And thank you so much to our patrons for supporting this show. And without further ado, here is my chat with Jennifer Savin.
Hello, Jennifer. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? I'm very excited to chat with you.
Jennifer Savin
Thank you, Hannah, I am very excited to chat with you as well. I love listening. So yeah, it's really, really thrilling to be along and have an episode with you too.
Hannah Witton
Excellent. And so one of the things that I really want to like dive in with you about is something that you did a lot of research into and have written about, and it's something that I think I'm scared of, which is why I haven't looked into it a lot.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah
Hannah Witton
And that is deepfake porn.
Jennifer Savin
Yes.
Hannah Witton
What made you want to look into that? What kind of like sparked your interest?
Jennifer Savin
Yeah. So I guess just for context, I mean, I've been at Cosmopolitan, I've been a journalist full time for like seven years now. So I'm naturally very curious. But a friend of mine, it was about, probably about six, seven years ago as well, she was deepfaked but back then we didn't really have the language to describe what it was. So it was a really terrible situation. There were pictures of her. So it was her face put on a pornographic kind of body, it was put into different pornographic scenes, and uploaded on website. And the person had said, you know, "This is my friend, her name is Dina, she's happy to be mentioned, because you know, she's in the article that I've written, you know, come and make comments about her." Identified her. So I kind of had a natural - not a natural awareness. I guess I knew what deepfaking was as a concept from the very beginning. And then just over time, through my work on the features desk at Cosmo, I kept an eye on it, I started seeing how pornographic websites that focus only on deepfakes have gotten bigger and bigger. I've seen how apps are kind of popped up making it easier for people to do it themselves without having to have a whole load of tech knowledge. So yeah, it's just something that I've been tracking for a while now. And it felt like, okay, this is the time to really do a deep dive on it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And so for people listening who are like, "Wait, hold up, backup, what is deepfake porn?" Can you give us a quick overview?
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, I've realised I've not explained. So deepfake porn, it's kind of - it's what we would call a synthetic video. It's like a synthetic video. It's synthetic pictures. But essentially, anyone could take a real life pornographic video, and superimpose your face on it. And it can look really realistic. It can also be pictures, but at the moment, the big conversation is around video, because I feel like we're kind of used to looking out for people using like filters and Photoshop on images, still images, but videos, we still kind of have a bit more of a level of trust with them. So yes, it's basically just very realistic looking porn, which has been created, oftentimes, sadly, without consent. And women are most likely to be the victim of that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like I've mostly encountered like deepfake stuff, when people have like made videos like fake - deepfake videos of politicians. And, and they also do the, like, have their voice as well. So they've like managed to artificially create an entire speech. And like and it looks like them and it sounds like them. But it isn't. It's completely fake. It never happened.
Jennifer Savin
Exactly. Yeah, you can deepfake audio. I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with Anthony Bourdain. You know, he was a TV chef, and he very sadly passed away, he committed suicide. But he ended his life before this documentary that he was working on had been fully produced and wrapped. So they deepfaked his voice as like a voiceover. And there was a lot of conversation around that around the ethics. It's like, well, you know, he'd already stayed on to do this project. It's art, you know, they're not making him say anything controversial. But is it right, that we can do that?
Hannah Witton
Oh, wait, hold on. Is it - so os it the same technology that is used in like the Star Wars films, when they've like gotten actors who have died? And like because their character is still in that show? Or film? Is it the same thing?
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, it's very similar. Very similar. Yeah. And it's also I mean - we're speaking about it, and now we're calling it deepfakes. And especially if we're talking about deepfake porn, it's in my mind, it is predominantly videos. But you know, photoshopping is kind of also deepfaking, do you know what I mean, it's altering images, but we're just getting so much more advanced and able to do it so much more easily now, which is, yeah, that's where the concern comes in. And it's hard, because, you know, you mentioned at the beginning, you're like, "It's scary." And it is like, you want to talk about these things to raise awareness and encourage the government to put laws in place. But you also don't want to be scaremongering people. But yeah, that's kind of the - that's the position that we're in with it all right now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because on the one hand, I'm just like, well, if there's this technology out there, and like, whenever there is a new technology, like there are always going to be people abusing it. And also, whenever there's a new technology, like the porn industry is also usually like two steps ahead as well, in terms of embracing new technology.
Jennifer Savin
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
And then also, we live in a patriarchy and misogyny is absolutely rife. So I can - I can see how we've gotten to this place where women are more likely to be like victims of being deepfaked in porn, and I'm trying to figure out, like, where - how I feel about it all because I'm like, well, then, should we just never post pictures of ourselves online ever just in case we get deepfaked? Is that even - is that even a verb? Is that even how you say it?
Jennifer Savin
I think it is a verb. Yeah, unfortunately, it is.
Hannah Witton
And then that's victim blaming, though, as well, isn't it?
Jennifer Savin
Exactly. It's the same.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah. So I mean, with, you know, working for Cosmopolitan, it's a really fortunate position when it comes to like asking a lot of women and non binary people, all at the same time, what their thoughts are and their feelings. And one of the things that we did ask people was, you know, will this impact the way that you use social media now that you know what deepfake is? And, you know, the response was, like, more than a third of people who were like, "Yeah, it's making me rethink." So, you know, there are certain images that are easier to deepfake. So for example, like bikini photos. And that's not to say that, you know, you can't ever post any holiday photos now in a bikini, because it will get deep faked. And, you know, it's - it's hard because you want to empower women.
Hannah Witton
Without trying to be, like, going down, like the victim blaming route, like, what - what are some things that you would encourage people to understand and be aware of? Whether it is a case of like reducing the chances of it happening to you? Is that even possible? I don't know. Or maybe like how to be more like vigilant in like recognising it and like understanding or, you know, just kind of like being a bit more critically aware of like porn that you consume? Like, what kind of - yeah, what's your takeaway on that? From the research you've done?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jennifer Savin
You know, the answer isn't all of us deleting every image of ourself off the internet and living underground, like mole people, because that's just restricting our quality of life. And it's the same kind of train of thought of like, "Well, don't wear a short skirt, if you don't want to get harassed." It's like, why do we have to keep doing all the admin and changing our behaviours and the way that we move through society? I think what we really need is society to step back and go, "Actually, how do we treat women? How do we view their bodies? And like, why do people feel so entitled to them?" I think that's a big key thing with deepfakes: this sense of like, "Well, if she won't give it to me, I'll take it anyway." It's also, you know, it's designed to humiliate, it's designed to make you feel small. And often, I mean, deepfakes started originally by really targeting celebrities, because there's obviously a lot more media out there. You know, they've got films, they've got high quality red carpet images, and then it kind of trickled down to influencers, to people who still have a public platform. And that was kind of deemed fair game. But now we're at this point where everyday women are being increasingly targeted, and it's like, the boundaries of what - I mean, none of it's ever okay, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying, "Oh, it's fine to do Angelina Jolie or Zendaya." It's not, it's never fine. But the boundaries and, you know, that kind of side of it is shifting, and it's just yeah. It's - it is worrying.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That reminds me like years ago, when I was still on Tumblr, I remember coming across this photo that it turned out, it was entirely photoshopped of Jennifer Lawrence, because remember she had her nudes leaked at some point. And then there was this photo that was going around on Tumblr, where it seemed like it was from her. And it was her being like, "Well, if you're going to leak my nudes, like, here's a picture of me." And she was wearing - it was like a sheer top, so you could kind of like see her boobs and nipples like through the top. And I remember like, as a feminist, being like, "Yeah, you go girl, like, you reclaim your body like, blah, blah, blah." And I reposted it on my Tumblr. And then I got messages from people being like, this isn't real, this is fake. And I deleted it immediately as soon as I heard but like, again, like I was - like, you know, like, I'm an internet social media person and like, even just stumbling across like a typically photoshopped image of a celebrity that is like being them made to look nude without their consent. And I, yeah, I felt, you know, I felt trapped by that, and, you know, reshared it and became part of the problem. It's so tricky, because, like, I feel like there's some people who - like younger people especially, who have like, grown up online and are a lot more digitally literate when it comes to these things and like, recognising, you know, like when they see something fake in images, but like you said, like, we do trust video a lot more.
Jennifer Savin
They do.
Hannah Witton
And now what are we supposed to do? Can't trust anything!
Jennifer Savin
I know, I know. And it's really hard as well, because it's not like - say, you know, somebody did deepfake you or I and that got spread around. It's not like we can be like, "Oh, here's an actual naked picture of myself. See, I don't have that tattoo." Or like, you can't - it's very difficult to kind of say this isn't real. Yeah. I mean, obviously, the Revenge Porn Helpline and people like that are amazing at supporting people who have sadly fallen victim to this digital sexual crime and there are ways you can request to get the material taken down. But unfortunately, you know, if it's going around on WhatsApp, it's harder to get that to stop.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Cuz it's all being shared in private messages.
Jennifer Savin
Exactly. And I think with the Jennifer Lawrence picture you mentioned as well, and and in any deepfake scenario, it's not just the one person who's had their face superimposed that's the victim. You know, whose body is this being put on as well? Like who, you know, that adult performer hasn't consented to being misused in that way, as well. So it's really never just the one victim.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that adult performer, their work is being erased. They're not being credited for their incredible work.
Jennifer Savin
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
There's that element too. What do you think, like, needs to be done? Like, are there laws around deepfake? Like, how long does it take for, for it to like catch up with technology like this? You mentioned the like revenge porn helpline. So like, what kind of - what are structural things that are in place to kind of help prevent things like this happening, but then also support people who are affected by it?
Jennifer Savin
So in terms of the law, right now, it's kind of non existent, which is crazy, right? Like, it's almost as though our laws today, it thinks the online world is one other like mythical place that's not really real. And then we have laws to protect us in our actual real life offline worlds. But actually, we spend so much time every day online that it's just the same world. So we need the laws to catch up and reflect our actual day to day living. But at the moment, you know, the Online Safety Bill is kind of going through a reform and there are amazing campaigners, so like, the guys from #NotYourPorn and Professor Claire McGlynn, she's, you know, been really petitioning and lobbying the government to be like, "Look, deepfake porn is a problem. We need laws to reflect that it's not okay to make this and distribute it."
Jennifer Savin
And it's the same with things like, if you're talking about genuine revenge porn, so an image that is real that has been taken and shared without your consent. The laws around that, like, it's only just kind of been, you know, the government have just said, "Okay, yeah, we're gonna make it illegal to threaten somebody with revenge porn." But prior to that, you could do it. And as long as you were like, "Oh, my intention was never to cause distress." There was a huge loophole, if you, you know, it was all about intention. So if you were like, "I just did it for a laugh." Then you're like, "Oh, no, no laws have been broken. That is fine." When it's not fine.
So, yeah, at the moment, we're at the spot where we need the law to reflect reality, In terms of support that's out there. I mean, the Revenge Porn Helpline they do incredible work. They are, you know, not a huge organisation. And every time I speak to somebody over there, they're like, "The calls that we get, it's the numbers are increasing. And it's not just deepfakes. It is, you know, genuine revenge porn, it is other kinds of digitally centred sexual crimes." But yeah, I think it is always still worth reporting things to the police. So when it happened to a friend of mine, she did report it to the police and the images were taken down. And she could actually work out who it was that had done this to her.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, it's pretty rare that actually they can do that. But -
Hannah Witton
A success story!
Jennifer Savin
Yeah! We love to hear it. Because she could see the username of the guy who had uploaded the images. He'd also sadly targeted a mutual friend of theirs, so she could kind of work out - and it was somebody that she worked with, which is adds another layer of like awfulness to the whole story. But yeah, so I - she said that the police contact kind of dropped off, but they did go and speak to him. So yeah, we're in a real kind of limbo stage with the law actually being solid. And then of course, like once you get a law passed, it's also the next hurdle of like, okay, how do we get people to actually put it in practice?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. This is all so interesting. And like I said, scary, hence why I've never like talked about it before because I'm just like, "Oh God, why technology and why horrible people?" Because I guess yeah, it's not the technology that's the problem is just people. It's people misusing it.
Jennifer Savin
It's the users.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but I'm gonna really do a 180 and shift gears because I also really want to talk with you about like dating and breakups and mental health stuff as well. But I guess a lot of the stuff around like deepfake porn and revenge porn, like that's hugely also tied into mental health as well just because of the the impact that it can have on people massively. Just in terms of your work, and also personally, how do you see breakups like impacting mental health? And do you think that breakups are often like not taken seriously enough in the way that they can impact you?
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, I do, actually. So, in terms of the mental health repercussions of deepfakes, I mean, I've interviewed both survivors, victims, you know, everyone has their own preference in terminology, but survivors of deepfake porn and survivors of genuine revenge porn and the same feelings come up. The same kind of phrases come up like that, you know, "I was paranoid, I was anxious, I was depressed, I was afraid to leave my house, I felt so exposed. I felt like everybody in the world had seen it, and you feel so vulnerable." So that, of course, is going to have repercussions on your mental health. You know, I've heard about women who had this happen to them and they've stopped working, because they're so scared to go back to work. And they've tried to change their appearance and like all of this feeds into your self esteem, and it can have massive ramifications. So yeah, so that that is a genuine, real concern.
In terms of, you know, your question about mental health, and breakups. Yes, this is also something that I've written about a lot. It's something that I have a personal interest in because I've had those experiences, and you know, I'm, very fortunate with my job, as I'm sure maybe you feel the same - once you have a personal experience, we're really lucky that we can access you know, therapies, therapists, and we can interview them. And it's kind of like free therapy. So you're like, "Right, I'll write about this, but also explore it on a deeper, deeper level."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you've figured out the real reason that I host this podcast. You sussed me out.
Jennifer Savin
I love this podcast, and I listened to your episode with Emily Nagoski and I was like, "Oh, I'd love to speak to her. I'm so jealous."
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. That was a dream. That was - that was such a dream speaking to her. But yeah, thank you.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, I mean, all your episodes are great. But that was a real personal fave. Yeah. So I've written about mental health and the impact that not only a breakup of a long term relationship, but also kind of those situationships that have never been defined. I think we kind of almost feel embarrassed for mourning them, which I personally - I think is not right. I think, you know, why can't they count? Why is it embarrassing to grieve a relationship that's not fully formed or fully defined? You know, I've interviewed psychologists and one of them said to me, that, you know, the mortality rate related to heartbreak is high. And, you know, we know there's been so much in the media about loneliness, and how loneliness kills in the last few years. That's just one, you know, side effect of a breakup. If you're more predisposed to mental health conditions, like depression, like anxiety, a breakup, which is - it's a a loss, it's a bereavement, that can really, you know, that can be very damaging for people. And, you know, one of the pieces that I've written about previously, in its most extreme example was, you know, after one breakup, - I, you know, I have been diagnosed with depression and anxiety before. So I have those tendencies within my chemical makeup, but after one breakup, you know, things got really, really bad. And at the worst point, I did attempt an overdose. And, you know, imagine I look back now and I'm like, if that had been successful, what a waste of a life. How heartbreaking and it was, yeah, that was after a three year relationship ended. So I think it is something that we need to take seriously.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I do think that there's that like tendency, when we think when we hear like stories like that, something so drastic and like happening in response to a breakup, and the whole like not taking it seriously thing because there's like this, I don't know, I feel like there's just this instinct to like judge and shame and just be like, it was, you know, like, "What's the big deal? Like, there's, you know, there's always like, there's plenty more fish in the sea." And like, there's, you know, all of that advice that goes round and like, "Oh, you know, like, just give it time." Or even just like, "Oh, they're a piece of shit anyway." And that often like in that moment, like, doesn't help.
I remember - I can't remember who said this, but I just remember hearing ages ago, years ago, somebody's talking about breakups and heartbreak, and talking about how we really struggle - just other people tend to really struggle with people going through - struggle to empathise with people going through heartbreak, like we cannot imagine what that feels like even if it is something that we have felt ourselves in the past. If we aren't currently feeling it, it's really difficult to empathise with like, specifically like a heartbreak kind of pain. And I really - that really like - I don't know, it really stuck with me because then I remember a friend of mine going through a breakup, and it really, really impacting her, to the extent where she was like, so upset she was throwing up, like it like physically made her be sick.
Jennifer Savin
Oh my gosh.
Hannah Witton
And I remember my first thought was just like, "Oh my god, how ridiculous." Like that was like my brain went rather than like, "Oh my goodness, you poor thing." Yeah, I don't know. I just think that - maybe - it's maybe it's me, maybe I'm the problem. "It's me."
Jennifer Savin
No!
Hannah Witton
But, but I do. Yeah, I do think that there is - I don't know. We take - we think of relationships as like this end goal thing of like, you know, a romantic relationship is like the ultimate end goal of life. You know, like, that is what you should be aspiring to. But then when it doesn't work out, we expect people to be fine.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, that's such a good point and really interesting about you know, that study, you mentioned about not being able to empathise and stuff, even if you've been through it. It's almost like this thing of like, you're allowed to be upset for a certain amount of time. But once it goes beyond that, it's like, "Okay, it's time to move on. This is boring now."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah. I think - but that's not always the reality for people, it's - it can be really hard to pick yourself back up. And I think, especially if you're younger, and it's like a first relationship, or, I don't know, what other support do you have around you? I mean, these things can really - these things can drag on. And I think your coping mechanisms, they can either really help or hinder. So I know that, you know, in the past, after both longterm like legit established relationships, and this one particular very turbulent, and I don't want to overuse like therapy speak but it was kind of traumatic, like situationship with a lot of gaslighting and ghosting. You know, I would, I would turn to like unhealthy coping mechanisms. So, I would just sit and drink on my own and smoke for hours. And it's like, none of that is going to make you feel better. But you just kind of get locked in this bubble of misery. And it's really - it's hard to break out of it. It is.
But I think, for me personally, when I was in that state, it's because I had kind of grown up with this idea that you put like, as a woman I was like, "Right, you are the ride or die." Like, you know, I grew up in the noughties listening to rap music. That was the key message. It was like the good woman stands by the bad man. And like, you take whatever shit comes your way. Like if they cheat on you, you stay put, like you hold it down, the man is the focus. And so when the relationship goes wrong, or things fall apart, you know, I always imagine it like a wheel, right? This is maybe a very cliche analogy. But if you've got like a relationship in the centre of the wheel, and then you've got all these spokes coming out of it, which is like your career, your friendships, your family, or whatever, if the thing in the middle of the wheel goes wrong, and is yanked out from underneath you, all the other spokes collapse and fall in, like your whole universe shatters. So that's why you have to kind of put yourself in the middle of the universe. Because even if things go wrong, like it's not going to be the end. You know that there's, you know, there's things beyond this. It's not going to make it magically disappear overnight. But if you put yourself as your core focus - that was my kind of key thing that I've learned over the years anyway.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What kind of is your like mental health care like 101? For someone like who's maybe listening to this and currently feeling a bit of heartbreak and going through a breakup?
Jennifer Savin
Yeah. I mean, it's tricky. And I think oftentimes, it's, well, the way that you respond to a breakup is the way that it actually happens. So like, for example, if it's a big shock, if you didn't see it coming at all, your whole world has just been rattled, right? Like, our brains, they like patterns, they like order, they like to know what's going on. So if suddenly, someone's turned around and been like, this is over. You're like, "Oh my god, I have to recalculate the whole image I had in my head of my future. That's all had to change now." So, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jennifer Savin
The way things end is key and like, I've been ghosted before and that, you know, that really fucked my shit up. That was bad. Like, I couldn't fathom what had I done wrong? And it's big dents to your self esteem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz you're not given like closure or answers.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, and you fill in the gaps with like, "Well, it must have been me, like, what did I do wrong?" Yeah, it's easy to excuse other people's behaviour, I think, especially if it's somebody that you're in a situationship with so you're not established, like a lot of that is fantasy, right? And the highs that come with that are so high, if you don't know where you stand with someone, but that also means the lows are so low, and it's almost like an addiction and like you want to keep -
Hannah Witton
Yeah!
Jennifer Savin
- yeah, you want to keep trying and rewriting the pattern. You're like, "I will fix them, I will change their behaviour!" But you can't, and you also can't rely on someone else to fix you. So in terms of like advice from, you know, a mental health, you know, self care perspective. Not everyone agrees with this. I was having this discussion with my boyfriend last night. I was like, "If you're breaking up with someone," I was like, "Delete. Block, delete, they live in a graveyard in your head. They don't exist to you anymore." And he was like, "But that's really sad. Like, if we broke up, I'd want to be friends." I was like, "No, sorry, you would be dead to me, like that could not happen."
Hannah Witton
Wow. Yeah. I think like what you said at the beginning, though, about like what was the cause of the breakup and how did the breakup go will dramatically impact your response to it. Because I've definitely had breakups where I felt relief afterwards. And then obviously, some where I've had like, complete heartbreak.
Jennifer Savin
Of course.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I also generally advise the block, delete. At least for a mourning period, you know, just like however long you need to like be able to almost stem that addiction, you know, like, you're going into withdrawal, you have to go cold turkey.
Jennifer Savin
100%.
Hannah Witton
And then like, I remember once, like, my friend deleted his number from my phone, but she kept it. And so she was like - if I wanted his number, if I wanted to reach out to him, I had to go through her. And like she'd be like, "No, you're not ready."
Jennifer Savin
Yes. I've done that as well. I've done that with my friend Josie. We did it for each other. So that was kind of, yeah, good timing.
Hannah Witton
I will say for that context and for my specific situation then, it was very helpful. It was exactly what I needed. I think - I think like what your boyfriend said, like, all well and good when you're currently in the relationship, and you like the person, to say, "Oh, I would want us to stay friends if we were going to break up." Like, mate, like you don't know, like... you never know.
Jennifer Savin
You can't predict that. You never know. So I think you need a kind of, yeah, like you said, a detox period, shake the addiction of that cycle off if you're coming out of a toxic, you know, draining, emotionally damaging situation. Obviously, it's a real privilege but if you can afford it: therapy, like talking therapy. Obviously, there's lots of different kinds of therapy out there in the world. Like I've tried CBT; personally, it didn't do too much for me. But psychodynamic therapy, which kind of really - you kind of unpack your whole life and repackage it and look at patterns and like, knowing why you feel certain ways, and why you're attracted to certain characters and relationships, I think, can be very helpful and helpful for, you know, breaking that cycle when you're ready to date again.
I just, you know, and if you can't, if you can't afford therapy, never feel embarrassed to ask for help. I know we hear that a lot. But honestly, like, embarrassment can be such a killer, like when I did, you know, sadly, attempt an overdose, after a few hours of feeling really, really sick and being in this awful state, I kind of - it was like the fever dream sort of paused for a minute. And I was like, "Oh my god, no, I want to live." And I called 909. I asked for an ambulance. And I was like, "But please, can you send it with no flashing lights, no sirens." Because I'd be so embarrassed about one having to wake up my mom and say, 'Look, I've done this really stupid thing.'
Hannah Witton
Oh wow.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, or have the neighbours see it? And like, I didn't really realise it until I was writing about it years down the line. But I was like, Jesus, in that moment, I literally made the choice of like I would rather risk my life than have people know that my mental health is in a really bad state right now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jennifer Savin
So the embarrassment like, it's never - the trade off is not worth it. Like, you know, friends, family, even your employer, you might have like a workplace scheme that offers a few counselling sessions. Like you might need to try all these different people before you get to something that helps you, but just don't stay silent.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you kind of said earlier about like you had like some unhealthy coping mechanisms and it's about like for each person to find what the healthy coping mechanisms are for them. I know one thing that's always really worked for me is like having something that I can focus on, like having something that like will completely absorb me in a task. Whether that is a hobby, or like an activity, or something, and I would actually - I would have to like really actively like schedule those things in and like book those things in whether it was like doing it by myself or doing it with other people. Because I feel like often when you're like fully absorbed in a task or an activity or whatever it is, then actually what happens is you - you momentarily forget the heartbreak. Yeah. And even if after that activity is done, it then comes back to you. And you're like, "Oh, I'm feeling heartbroken again, like that, this sucks." At least you like have the knowledge that it is possible to still have fun, and still be yourself and still like feel like you're you can be engaged in like your life, even if it is for like a short moment. And then hopefully what happens is those moments just get a bit longer and a bit longer and a bit longer.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, fully, fully agree. I think that's a great approach. And it's kind of almost like trying new experiences as well. So like do something you've never done. Just something to put distance between yourself and this bad situation you've emerged from, like, push it further and further to the back of your brain with like fun new experiences. And, you know, if that feels like too much, then I think I'm always a big fan of stripping things back to the basics. Like I know it sounds, I don't know, obvious, but things like diet. When I was in really deep pits of depression and anxiety, it was just fully the predominant feeling in my life. My diet was awful. I was just eating like brownies, crisps, like a lot of junk, which isn't like ideal for every single meal of the day. So look at what fuel you're putting in your body.
Jennifer Savin
And alcohol. You know, we live in a society where it's like, "Bad day? Have a glass of wine."
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jennifer Savin
And like, it's very hard to drink yourself better when it's a depressant. So that. And exercise. You know, sleep. All these things that, yeah, we all know we should do, but -
Hannah Witton
The fundamentals.
Jennifer Savin
The fundamentals, Hannah! But yeah, just like make those a priority, and find joy in those like moments of doing good things for yourself. Because that also, I think, can feed back into rebuilding your self esteem, which I think can also be part of the reason why, you know, if you're somebody who really struggles deeply with breakups, and emotional turbulence, like a lot of it, I think, personally for me came down to having absolutely fuck all self esteem. So yeah, build that back up.
Hannah Witton
Exactly. Um, so one of the things that I spotted when I was like looking into your work and like the things that you've written about. This is - this is so silly. So you tasked yourself at one point to only date men called Daniel.
Jennifer Savin
I didn't know we were gonna chat about this, but yes, I love it, go on.
Hannah Witton
So the reason why this stood out to me is because I married a Daniel.
Jennifer Savin
You did, didn't you! Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
And so I want to know, what was it about Daniels that made you decide, "I'm going to just date men called Daniel?" Like, what - what is it about Daniels? And then what did you learn about Daniels? Have I made a good choice in spouse is basically what I want to know from you.
Jennifer Savin
Do you know what, I mean, from what I've seen of you guys online, it seems like you've made a very good choice, and you're very well matched. And I've listened to the episodes where you have him on, so love to hear it. So basically, the whole concept of this - so obviously, like working at Cosmopolitan, I get to do a huge broad range of stories. So from the really serious things that are hard hitting and involve going undercover, so deepfakes, but also the more fun and light hearted dating stories. And at that time, I was, I guess - I guess you would call it like a serial dater, like I really was like, on the scene, I was on all the apps like I, you know, I would love to get in a couple of dates a week just to meet everyone.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Jennifer Savin
But it wasn't really going anywhere. And I kind of realised that oftentimes, with apps, you know, they're so gamified, aren't they? And they seem really, you can get quite picky. And your criteria can be really savage. So you could be missing out on a lot of people that actually you might love in real life. So, I kind of just got to the point where I was like, "Okay, I'm fed up of just saying no to people because of small things like oh, they - I know sounds awful, but like, 'Oh, they look too small. Like I don't want someone who's the same height as me.' And stuff like that." So I was like, great, what can I judge on that's like really arbitrary. And I ooking for a name which was, you know, it's not - it's kind of lends itself well to like all races, like all backgrounds, things like that. And then I looked and found some recent that said, "Daniels are also meant to be like the Most Generous name for a man" or something like that. It was flimzy research, but it was a good jumping off point for the feature.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Jennifer Savin
And so that's what we did. We set up - I set up a little email address, which was like dating daniels@gmail.com. I put a big like posters on the tube. I was like, "Is your name Daniel? Like, email me." I was like swiping to find Daniels.
Hannah Witton
I love it.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah, and you got - I got to meet a lot of people who I probably wouldn't necessarily have swiped right on, you know, so it was great for pushing me out of my comfort zone.
Hannah Witton
Do you have any like broad observations or generalisations about Daniels? Is it safe to say -
Jennifer Savin
No.
Hannah Witton
Or are they all different? They're all unique individual Daniels.
Jennifer Savin
That was it. That's the take home and I think, yeah, you can't judge anyone by a name. Like it was a very tongue in cheek article. Do you know I mean, it was just like a fun device to like date new people. But they were all very different. Most of them were lovely. One was a bit rogue, but he said a few things that I was like, "Ooh, not not into that. Red flag." But most of them are great. So on the whole, thumbs up to you, Daniels. Yes.
Hannah Witton
Yay, well done.
Jennifer Savin
Although my boyfriend now is called Ben. So.
Hannah Witton
Well, what are you gonna do, there are only so many Daniels in the world. Can't marry them all.
Jennifer Savin
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Right, we have some questions from folks on Instagram as well. Somebody has asked: what is your advice to feel the healthy pain after a breakup without suffering too much? This question just made me laugh a bit. Because I was like, "I want to feel some pain. But not a lot."
Jennifer Savin
It's interesting, because I do kind of almost feel like depression and anxiety and these really intense miserable emotions that you feel after a breakup can almost become a bit addictive. Because I remember like after I'd kind of recovered from a really harsh breakup, I was like, "Oh, I just feel like nothing now. What - what's going on here?" So I guess, I mean, it's not - it's not something you can put a strict time limit on, like, "I'm gonna feel bad for two weeks, and then I'll feel fine." But I think try not to wallow in it and try not to feed into it to the point where it's like, you know, if you're at the point where you're not able to work and you're not able to shower, like things have really gone wrong, like that's when you need to seek help urgently. But yeah, feel the pain. But just try and push yourself a little bit, a little bit at a time, until you get back to that point where you're like, "I feel good, I feel fulfilled. And I'm -, I know I can take care of myself." And ironically, that's normally when you meet someone and you're like, "I'm not looking anymore. I'm actually really good on my own."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, pretty much. The thing that I find interesting about this question is like the phrase 'healthy pain', because there's almost like this pressure or assumption that like, you have to feel something. Like you have to be hurt by a breakup. But it's also fine to not be. I just wanted to put that out there. It's like, if you aren't heartbroken, lucky you!
Jennifer Savin
No , I fully agree. And I feel like that's what is so fascinating and that's kind of why I've written about, you know, situationships, and like the damage that ghosting can do, because like I've had those experiences and been really like cut up about them. But then same time, I've ended like, you know, year and a half long relationships and been like, "Yeah, I'm all right." There's no rhyme or reason to it. I guess. It's just, you know, the, it's like the intensity versus length of time, the kind of theory.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, they're completely different. They're not necessarily going to be correlated. This person has asked: how to get out of the mindset of "they're the only perfect person for me, I will never find anyone like them."
Jennifer Savin
Oh my gosh. I mean, the first thought I had was like, on a practical level, there are like almost 50 million people that live in this country. So the odds of that being true are very, very small. But I completely get you. Like, I remember, you know, I had a breakup that I really - I struggled to recover from, and he moved on quite quickly and kind of strung me along a bit. You know, he was still dating this other girl, but he'd still message me like, "I love you." And I was like, "I love you too." And that was awful. And he's now married to her and like I literally feel no type of way about it but one point in time I thought, "This will be the end of me. If this happens, and they stay together, I will be destroyed." So even though it feels probably like that right now, they're not and you probably broke up for a reason, right? So try and think about those reasons and why they make that person not the perfect person for you.
Hannah Witton
My only piece of advice for this person is to listen to the Tim Minchin song, If I Didn't Have You. Have you heard this?
Jennifer Savin
Oh my god. Yeah, I thought - I saw him at Latitude like years ago and he performed it and it was so funny.
Hannah Witton
It's so good. So Tim Minchin is an Australian musician and comedian. And he is probably middle aged now, I don't know. But he has been with his wife - like they met when they were 17. Like, it's one of those stories of like, we met in school and you know, we've been together ever since kind of thing. But he has this song called If I Didn't Have You, and literally the punch line in the lyrics are, "If I didn't have you, someone else would do." And it's such a beautifully romantic song to his wife, but it's also just like a, "Hey, I would probably, like, if we weren't together, I just probably was somebody else who'd be like just as nice."
Jennifer Savin
Exactly!
Hannah Witton
It's so funny and I love it so much. And I think it is like, because it also is funny and like comedy like helps in a lot of like heartbreak situations. But also a lot of what he's saying, I think is really true in that song. I would just - I would just highly recommend anyone who is in that mindset of like, "Oh my god, am I never gonna find anyone like this again?" Have a listen, have a laugh. Have a little ponder. It's a great song.
Jennifer Savin
And also - yeah, it is a great song. And I also think, like, if you're feeling that way, like this is the only person in the world. So much of that, like we build people up in our heads. But they're not actually that. That is fantasy. Like, we're so good at creating fantasies. So like, you know, you think that they're this person that you can't do without, but they probably don't actually exist. Do you know what I mean? And like, it's really dangerous to fall into that cycle. And putting so much on it? And yeah, it's a real risk. Don't do it. Don't advise.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh my god, I definitely used to fall into the trap of, like, falling for the fantasy of someone and not like who they actually were. Which definitely made those heartbreaks like even worse, because you're mourning something that you like made up and you made up it to be like, really excellent.
Jennifer Savin
Exactly. I was speaking to a therapist about this before, someone I was interviewing, about, you know, when we have these really intense relationships, and you get the super super highs, and then the super low lows, and like the uncertainty, it's like this adrenaline and it's like, you're stuck, and you're locked on it. And she was like, you know, and then when you go and find a nice, healthy, stable, normal relationship afterwards, you can almost be like, "Wait, this is boring. What is this? Like, there's no drama." And it's something that is true. And she was like, "Interesting." She was like, you know, "A healthy way to explore that is like BDSM, because it's the same kind of power dynamic at play." And I'm just like, oh, I've always thought that was so interesting. So like, yeah, healthy relationships, we stan, but also like, sometimes you have an adjustment period of being like, "Wait, this person, this guy is nice and straightforward. And I'm not second guessing myself all the time. What is this?"
Hannah Witton
"What is going on? Why is this boring?" Yeah, no, I 100% relate. This person has said: my partner says he'll fall apart completely, if we break up. How to navigate relationship conversations? What's your take on this?
Jennifer Savin
Oh gosh. See, that sounds to me like that's very, it's almost like emotional blackmail. So, I don't know. I think and it's important - you know, I would want to clarify that when I'm speaking about my past relationships, where I'm like, you know, my mental health was really bad, I'm not like, "Because this guy." I think it's a myriad of factors. And, yeah, I don't think it's right to just say like, "This person, is the reason for all of my problems." Like sometimes, yeah, in like, in some situations, that is true, but not all so, you need to make that distinction. And also do some like, introspective looking in as well. But if someone's saying to you, like, "I'm gonna fall apart without you." That's really hard. Like, you're not responsible for somebody else's emotional happiness. Like, obviously, don't be a dick in your relationship. But yeah, that's tricky. Like, if you have a mutual friend who could kind of intervene or speak to them and make sure that they're doing welfare checks, almost.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's like your wheel analogy as well, like that this person's partner sounds like they've got them in the centre of their wheel and, like, you know, if you're wanting to stay with them, and you're having these conversations, like what are ways that you can encourage them to build out their life outside of your relationship?
Jennifer Savin
Yep.
Hannah Witton
You know, so that they so that they can like start building some security and foundation, not with the intention of "Oh, so then when I break up with them, they'll be fine," but actually just because you want your partner to have like, a fulfilling and engaged life outside the relationship, you know, when you intend to stay with them, as well.
Jennifer Savin
Exactly. the best relationships are two fulfilled happy people who choose each other but they're not like codependent to the point of like, "I will self destruct If this ends." And we want that. We want that for everybody.
Hannah Witton
We do. Um, Jennifer, thank you so much. This has been such a lovely chat. Please, like, tell people where they can find more of you and your work and like all of the different things that you've written about.
Jennifer Savin
Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you. It has been a lovely chat. I've really enjoyed speaking with you.
Hannah Witton
Aw, thanks.
Jennifer Savin
So where can you find me? I mean, obviously, I'm Features Editor at Cosmopolitan. So I'm always on the website, I'm in the print magazine, across our social channels. My own personal socials exist. Twitter, it's @jennisavin and then my Instagram - my Instagram handle's really lame. I feel like I should change it. But you know, when you've had it for so long, you're like, "Oh, I'm almost like nostalgic." But it's -
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness. I love that.
Jennifer Savin
It's @savcity. So S A V C I T Y
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Jennifer Savin
And that came about from when we were at uni and you know that a song by Tiger like rack city? "Rack city, bitch."
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Jennifer Savin
My friends used to say "sav city". So as I'm like, "I'm like I'm trying to be professional adult now. So I should probably change that."
Hannah Witton
I made that is a decision for you and you alone to make.
Jennifer Savin
I know.
Hannah Witton
Well, thank you so much. And thank you all so much for listening. Goodbye.