Gender Diversity in Relationships and Non-Binary Masturbation with Dee | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone, welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This episode is all about being non binary and gender diversity and my guest is the wonderful Dee.
Dee is a non binary qualified sex educator in the UK who creates educational content online via their platform @s3xtheorywithdemi on all things sex, gender, and sexuality, as well as through their full time job at PinkNews. Dee is someone I've been following for a while and I really wanted to get them on the podcast as they create so much important content around being non binary and what the whole enby spectrum can look like. We started off hearing about Dee's MA in gender, sex, and sexuality at Birkbeck, and why their favourite module is all about prostitution and how queerness and gender diversity showed up in it. We discussed how interesting and complex it is to look back at gender diversity in history, and not really knowing if examples were expressions of gender diversity, or people changing their appearances to get access to rights that they wouldn't have had access to otherwise. We spoke about trans being an umbrella term, but why it took Dee time to feel comfortable to use it for themselves, Dee's journey with exploring their gender identity, and why they love the term non binary but also how non binary people can often feel alienated in trans spaces because they don't feel trans enough.
Dee talked about how whilst labels can be so important and gender affirming for people, they can also be confusing and rigid for some others. Dee talked about the importance of being free to try labels on, to change labels if you may change, and to not feel you have to be constricted to one label at all. We talked about non binary tropes and how Dee and other non binary people can feel pressured to appear and dress androgynous to have their non binary identity taken seriously. We also spoke about what masturbation is like as someone who is non binary, and Dee shared about how masturbation allows them to explore their own sexuality and pleasure in a way not attached to genitals, which really helps with gender dysphoria. Dee also spoke about trans inclusive sex toys, how packaging can really impact someone who is trans or non binary, and also how sex toys can be really gender affirming within sex by allowing them to explore different roles.
We also spoke about non binary relationships, what it is like coming out and transitioning whilst in a previously cis het relationship, and Dee gave advice for others in these dynamics and we talked about how a partner's sexuality doesn't change if they don't want it to just because their partner is non binary. And Dee also spoke about how to help guide your partner to being gender affirming in your relationship and in sex. I really enjoyed hearing Dee share their own journey with their gender identity and how this is a continuous fluid journey.
And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram, @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify; it is really, really appreciated. And you can keep the show going by supporting us over on patreon.com/hannahwitton, where you will find a bonus episode recorded with my producer Mia right after we finished recording this episode in a little Patreon exclusive series called So... How Was That for You? Thank you so much to our patrons who support the show. And without further ado, I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode. Here is my chat with Dee.
Hi, Dee, welcome to the podcast. How you doing?
Dee
I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
Oh, thanks for being here. I'm really excited to chat with you. Because I feel like I've seen a lot of your work online and very much kind of like, you know, in the internet sex ed realm. We both have our certifications from AASECT.
Dee
We do!
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And so yeah, I wanted to chat with you all about your work and what you do. I guess first off, I wanted to chat with you about your MA. Did you finish that now? It's done?
Dee
Yeah. So I finished it about a month ago, and it's all submitted, dissertation's done. It was only a year instead of a two year course. I crammed it all into a year whilst also working full time.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Dee
It was quite crazy. I don't know how I did it
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. I don't know how you did it. I was I was flirting with the idea of doing a similar MA. I don't know where you did yours so it might have been one of the same but like a gender, sexuality, and culture one, and then I decided that actually no, I don't like research enough to wanna like go back into academia. So anyone who has done it like literally like the same, like almost exact same courses that I was flirting with the idea of doing I'm like, "How was it? What did you learn? Like, tell me everything. Tell me all the secrets."
Dee
Yeah, it was I really enjoyed - so I did my course at Birkbeck. And it is -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's the exact same one I was looking at.
Dee
Most people do at Birkbeck, because they are really good. And I really did enjoy every module that I did there. And I did Gender, Sexuality and Culture, you could just do Gender and Sexuality as well, that was a different side thing, that I think you didn't have as many modules. And then obviously, you have one module that you have to take, and then you have several modules that you can pick. So one of the modules that I picked that I really remember quite vividly was the prostitution module, because that was so unique, and especially being gender diverse and non binary, it was so interesting to see how sex work is represented in non binary individuals. And if we are even documented for our history, which we're not, unfortunately, and that was one of my papers was talking about how you can't figure out if people were really gay, or if they were doing sex work, because they were both labelled as either sex work or as being gay.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dee
So there's such a mix there that it's quite beautiful. And it's quite interesting, because it was either gay for pay, or just everyone wad gay. So it's really fascinating. Yeah, and then I did about - I think it was about four modules in the year, had about a paper each, a paper each for each module, as well as a book review for each as well. And then my dissertation, which was 15,000 words.
Hannah Witton
Oof.
Dee
And yeah, doing that whilst working full time was hard, as well as changing jobs halfway through.
Hannah Witton
What on earth! Yeah, I feel like there's probably like a handful of people listening - maybe more than a handful, who knows - who are also interested in kind of like, pursuing these topics further in study as well. So it's always good to kind of like, hear people's experiences. That's so interesting, what you're saying about, like, prostitution, especially like in terms of history, because I did a history degree. And I remember there being a lot of issues as well around things like sodomy and how that's defined. Because if somebody was like tried and found guilty for sodomy, actually like it could have been anal sex, or it could have been like adultery, or it could have been like bestiality, like it just kind of like, you don't actually know. They'd just be like tried for this one thing but you're like, "But what actually was it?"
And the same with kind of like trans and like gender diverse people throughout history, because like, we know that they've always existed, but without kind of like, I guess, modern language. For there's so much like, I guess, like, cross dressing and genderbending in history, but it's like, were they were they trans in the way that we would understand trans now? Or were they just like - or were they a cis woman who was actually just trying to access certain things that they wouldn't be able to get if they were perceived as a woman? Or were they gay, and they wanted to like marry the person that they wanted to marry? There's just like, so much, like you said, it's kind of beautiful when you're like, "It's super messy. Like, who knows?" But everyone there in the past and present.
Dee
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Was there anything that like surprised you? Because I feel like you were probably going into it with like a lot of understanding and knowledge about gender and sexuality. But was there anything that you were like, "Whoa, didn't know that."
Dee
Um, I think for me, the entire course. And I kinda want to say sorry, to all my lecturers, the entire time, I was like, "What about gender diverse people? Let's talk about this." Because a lot of our studies on gender and sex is based on women, which I love, beautiful, like the feminist modules as well, were absolutely stunning. I didn't take any of them but I luckily was able to access some of the reading through other friends that did. But every session, I would say, "But what happens if we don't know the gender of this person? If, you know, on documents, they say female, but that only tells us their sex. Like what is it not telling us?" And a lot of my - a lot of my papers were like, "This is what the history says. But let's talk about the fact that it might not be that." I think I might have annoyed a few lecturers because I was just like, "But what about this? What about that?"
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's a lot of information missing because no one actually documented it.
Dee
Yeah, as well as a lot as you said, our language like transgender is technically a new term and how we understand it is as well. And you know, some people were just dressing in different ways because they just wanted to and it had nothing to do with gender. And it maybe had to do with sexuality, like a lot of lesbian history is about dressing like quote unquote "men" or masculine individuals, but that doesn't mean that they're trans or gender diverse. They're just dressing in suits.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dee
So I was quite fascinated at kind of trying to find where, like, there was missing information about people outside of the binary. And I think that's why - that was one part of why I did a trans-related dissertation, like my actual dissertation was trans-related, because I felt like there was so much missing. And all of my lecturers were really happy with me choosing that topic as well. And yeah, just like a side note, as well, if you want to like go into Gender and Sexuality Studies, please remember that there's like - it's not just as black and white as like a lot of the history books say. It's not just like, "Oh, they saw a woman or a man." Like, we don't know. So some people were really great at passing as well back then. So you really don't know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, true. Speaking of kind of like the modern language and terms and stuff, so you identify as non binary. Any term within that massive umbrella, or just non binary?
Dee
So at the moment of recording this...
Hannah Witton
Okay! Because it could change.
Dee
Yeah, anything could change. That's another thing. I could say this now and when this is released, I could be another gender identity. Who know.
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Dee
But so obviously, you have transgender as the umbrella term, and then non binary comes within that. And I've really struggled with using the term trans for a long time. I didn't feel as if it spoke about my experiences, and I didn't feel connected to it. But interestingly, since I've been able to explore my expression a bit further, since moving away from home, since being in a queer, really queer space in my workplace, I've kind of begun to feel comfortable with that term. So now I'm kind of more leaning towards trans and non binary as both, to have them as like a dual identity. But for - I've been through quite a few non binary identities. I was genderfluid, genderqueer. But non binary feels really like home to me, it's the only identity that I've never questioned. I've always known that that was the one. And maybe there was other ones that I could like dabble in, but like non binary has been the one for the last two years that just feels - just feels right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, do you have any advice for people who are like kind of in that boat where like, "I'm really sure that I'm non binary. But there's so many kinds of like terms, underneath, like gender terms underneath that umbrella, and different identities." And like trying to figure out - how to figure out like which one feels right for them?
Dee
I think my biggest bit of advice for anyone who's ever questioning labels, and whether that's sexuality or gender identity is that it's completely okay to change labels. It's completely okay to try one on. And if it doesn't fit, or if it doesn't feel just right, it's okay to drop it or just to kind of leave it on the back burner for now and return to it. You don't have to adopt a label forever. And a lot of the time people want to really, you know, find a label that's really precise. And sometimes you can't, so using an umbrella term, like non binary or trans is, in my opinion, a good place to start, because it gives you wiggle room to decide, "Okay, maybe I'm more trans non binary or trans masc or trans femme, or maybe I'm more fluid." And then once you feel comfortable with those questions, you can then begin to look at the micro labels and see if you want to use them. And I personally don't use micro labels. I like the umbrella term because it means I can kind of dabble in it all, but some people like having like, "I'm this thing," because it's so specific. And I think that takes time to work out whether you want something as specific or you just want to have something that's quite overarching.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess it might be the case that there isn't a term that currently exists to describe your specific gender. Because if we really like boil it down, then you know, like, every individual person has got their own individual, specific gender. But I mean, I'm not going to sit around coming up with 7 billion words for that. No, thank you. But you kind of touched on something there that I think comes up a lot, at least I've heard, in terms of like non binary people like feeling not trans enough, even though non binary does like fall under the trans umbrella. Is that something that you've felt or that you kind of like have encountered? And kind of like what advice would you have for people who are maybe feeling a bit like that?
Dee
I think I really experienced that when I attended - it was - I cannot remember the actual name of it, but it was a trans rally, or it was a trans speaker event in London. And I was non binary. I didn't identify with trans and I was quite, I was quite openly voicing that. And I was with my friend who was a trans man. And the speeches were beautiful. They were about transness. And weirdly, I didn't feel part of the community even though non binary is part of transgender. And I felt like an outsider even though the speeches and the event that I was at was about my identity and about people like me or people in my community. I didn't feel as if I belonged there. And I think that came from a lot of internal questions of questioning my own identity and a lot of my expression. At the time I presented in a quite femme way, and I didn't feel comfortable with that but I wasn't ready to kind of experiment with my look and style yet. I was still living at home so it wasn't really - wasn't really able to, which being 21/22 at the time was difficult because I was an adult, but I still didn't feel comfortable enough to cut my hair in my own home because I wasn't ready to take that leap.
Whereas now when I'm in those spaces, I do feel like I'm part of the trans community. For example, at work whenever we talk about transness, or non binaryness, like I'm one of the first people that will be like, "Oh, here's an idea for a video we could do," or "I want to do a talk on this," and I am openly now putting my - like, openly now, being part of the community and I do feel closer to the trans identity than I ever have before and I think that's because I see myself closer to my idea of transness, which, as you said is unique to everyone. My non binary looks different to somebody else's non binary. And the same with transness. And now I feel closer to it than I had before. And if you're experiencing that, maybe have those questions of why. Like maybe sit with yourself and it is okay, if when you sit with yourself, you realise some things that are a bit uncomfortable with, like, uncomfortable at first, and then if you need to really like, get to the root of it. It's okay if there's some parts of you that are like, "Ooh, that's a bit weird of me to think," or "Ooh, that doesn't align with this and that." It's okay to be uncomfortable with with those questions, because it can be uncomfortable. Gender can be really uncomfortable. Especially figuring it out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. Do you think there's kind of like, a lot of feeling of pressure to kind of - to like conform to like tropes of what like non binary looks like? So if you're non binary, then you have to have like an androgynous look? Because I do feel like that question does like exist out there. And like, how would people kind of like overcome that? Like, what's a way to kind of like, try and figure out, actually, what does your non binary look like?
Dee
Yeah. When I first came out as non binary, I did the very typical thing of I got rid of all my dresses, put my hair up so it was hidden, I would only wear trousers and shorts and no makeup, and I really went for long androgyny because I - and after a while of discussing this with my then partner, I realised I was doing that because I wanted people to see me as non binary. And the only way I felt that that was possible was if I looked so different from what the traditional feminine look was.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Dee
If I looked so opposite from that, then they have to think that I'm either a trans man, a man, or non binary and I was okay with those labels, but I wasn't okay with being seen as a biological woman or a "traditional" woman as I thought. And I still to this day, there'll be days where I wake up and I think "I look too femme" or "I look too masc, I look too this, I look too that." And even today, even though I'm so comfortable in my identity, I still wake up sometimes with that fear of not presenting in a way that makes me feel more comfortable and for me at the moment, that's androgynously, and that's more masc-leaning, but I think - I think there is a pressure definitely for non binary people to be seen as the middle ground and that is androgyny, to kind of prove in a way that non binary exists, because if they look too femme or they look too masc then they're seen as either men or women, or a trans man or a trans woman, so if they're completelylike androgynous then they're completely in the middle, which we know non binary can look like anything and can be - it can be femme, it can be masc as well, and I think that's something that not a lot of us at the beginning of our journey realise: that you can be non binary and femme leaning and that's completely okay. Especially if you're biologically female as well. It's okay to lean into your biology or lean into traditional views of gender as well. You don't have to just like throw it all away or go for the opposite gender. It is completely okay to align with your sex as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think I've definitely heard like folks talk about like becoming more comfortable with their gender, and gender identity, and then feeling like they can then reclaim aspects of expression that are more like typically associated with like the sex that they were assigned at birth, whereas before they were like, "I must -" like, like you "Like, must distance myself as far away from these dresses as possible." But then maybe it's something that you might come back to, or never, who knows.
I wanted to kind of switch gears a little bit and talk about masturbation.
Dee
Love that.
Hannah Witton
From gender to masturbation. Because you've recently captured a whole journey of masturbation with Brook. Can you talk us through that project and like what happened and what that was like for you?
Dee
Yeah, So I believe it was in 2020 when I first - when sex education and sex positive, the online movement, really flourished during lockdown. And we saw all these amazing accounts blossom. And it was during that period when I first wrote my first ever masturbation blog for Brook. And I was talking about the fact that I'd never used a sex toy before. And it was the first time I was using one, I was 21 years old, and it was such an amazing experience. And I was so - but also so terrified about it. And I didn't know what what I was doing. But it was so fun to explore it. And how I was tackling a lot of internalised misogyny and how I viewed sex and my body and my ownership of my body back then. And then they reposted that article a year later, and I had to message them and say, "This doesn't feel like me anymore. I'm non binary now and I want to talk about my body in a different way." So then I revisited it as somebody who's non binary, and I believed at the time I used multiple pronouns as well, so I could even do a part three because now I'm on they/them so, you know.
Hannah Witton
Love it.
Dee
But I revisited it and said, like now sex toys allow me to connect with my body in a way that I couldn't before. And especially with gender dysphoria, sex toys really allow me to explore my body without the attachment of gender and without the focus of sex. It's completely about me and pleasure. And now I use a variety of toys and I see them all as genderless and I always use gender inclusive stores or shops or small like trans-related shops as well.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I thought you were about to say "I always use gender inclusive names for my toys." I thought that was where that was going, for some reason.
Dee
I should, I should. Well, to be honest, I do call one of my toys "Red", and I feel like Red's probably like a very non binary name, just like, "Oh, my name's Red." Like that just feels like something we would do.
Hannah Witton
Yep.
Dee
But yeah, so I - it's funny because now I have two blogs. One from when I was first discovering sex toys as a she/her queer individual to now how sex toys helped me as a gender diverse individual. And I guess now the further step would be how sex toys - how I use sex toys within the bedroom with my partner who's a bisexual man and I'm a non binary masc-leaning individual who likes to change roleplay in the bedroom, so then I'm more masc-presenting and more dominant, because I'm much smaller than partner and I'm much more - I'm a small boy compared to him. So the use of sex toys allows me to be in those more dominant roles that I can't - I wouldn't have been able to get in if I didn't have the aid of a toy as well. So maybe part three. Brook! Here!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there you go. I'm here for it. I'm well excited. This also just reminded me of I remember encountering some sex toys that were called things like The Tennis Coach and The Millionaire and The Frenchman and things like that. It gave me such an ick. I was like, "No."
Dee
Yeah, I do not like that.
Hannah Witton
I was like, "I don't wanna put them near my body!"
Dee
No. But I think recently as well there's been such a surgence in trans-inclusive toys and there's so many amazing like strokers out there or grinders that are gender inclusive, that are neutral, that when I first discovered sex toys weren't really a thing. It was always like pink and woman and this and that.
Hannah Witton
For her. For him.
Dee
I'd always buy a sex toy and get rid of the box, because the box would be like a woman just like posing and I thought, "Why do we need that?" Whereas now I always buy from inclusive brands that don't have things like that, they might just have like a fun colour and like a little emoji, not these terms that would make me and other gender diverse people feel uncomfortable.
Hannah Witton
Do you have any recommendations off the top of your head for like gender inclusive sex toy retailers? We love a good recommendation here.
Dee
I do. I think Carla - gonna say this - Cara Delevingne's sex toys are completely genderless and gender neutral in their packaging and their branding and their like representation.
Hannah Witton
I've not tried any of them.
Dee
So Red is one of them.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay.
Dee
I can't remember what the actual name is, but Red, and it's my go to and I remember receiving the packaging and it was like yellow and white and I was like, "This is such a nice fresh like packaging." And it had nothing sexual on it. It just looked like a really nice gadget and I was like, "That's really nice actually."
Hannah Witton
Love a good gadget.
Dee
Yeah, that we don't have to see like water or like lube on it, it just looked just like this is what you - that like this is an aid to help you and it was really cool.
Hannah Witton
I'm now wondering if I want to like switch from using the language of "sex toys" to "sex gadgets."
Dee
Sex gadgets? I'm gonna say. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Dee
Plus Cara is queer as well. So having a queer individual as the owner of the store just makes me feel even better about buying something from there or receiving a gift from there as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I actually, in my long list of video ideas that I want to get around to doing at some point is trying different celebrities sex toys, because there's quite a few celebrities who've got sex toy ranges like, Demi, Lily Allen.
Dee
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, a lot. So I'm like, "Need to get around to that." I'm like, "Add Cara to the list as well."
Dee
That'd be great, yeah.
Hannah Witton
You mentioned your partner as well, and that he's, he's bisexual. And I think - I mean, I feel like this comes up with bisexuality as well and like, you know, when you go into the etymology of the word, like, "bi means two, and so it's about attraction to men and women." Can you just do a quick explanation? Just to clarify if there were any people listening to be like, "Wait, but if he's bi and they're non binary, how does that work?"
Dee
So [bi] recently had its term updated to go from two gender identities to two or more gender identities. So that includes non binary gender identities, that can also include trans people, it can include people that don't go by any gender. And bisexual has always meant that though, and a lot of the bisexual community say, "Oh, but I have been with trans men and trans women and I have been with non binary people." And it's only now recently that people have said "bi means two", and it's - it means two or more, which, with the amount of genders that we have, can include a variety of genders.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dee
And my partner - I've had discussions with my partner about this, because I've always said, you know, I want to be with a partner who obviously sees my gender identity as non binary. And unfortunately, in the past, I have been with people that haven't seen it, and they've only seen my sex. And that's been really difficult for me, especially when I was going through my journey. But I met my partner as non binary. So he's never known me as anything other than that. And when I met him, and we spoke about our queerness, and he said he was bi, he was like, "I'm into everyone. So if you're having femme day and you wear a dress, that's cool for me. If you want to cut your hair short -" like I did " -that's cool. Like, do whatever you want to do." And I think within the bedroom, it also helps because there isn't any pressure to fulfil a certain gender role within the bedroom. Like, it doesn't matter who tops or who bottoms, you know, who penetrates, who doesn't, because it's so diverse. And his sexuality is so fluid, and my gender identity and sexuality is so fluid, that it just means we can kind of explore anything, which is really affirming to me, and really fun for him. So.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. This has led me down a train of thought. Have you seen the season three of Sex Education? So the non binary character, Cal, and they kind of have this like romantic situationship going on with Jackson, who, up until that point, we've - he's kind of been presented as a cis straight boy. And he's starting to have a bit of a crisis because he - maybe kind of similar to your own experience of like, he doesn't see Cal as nonbinary, he sees Cal as a woman. And so - but then obviously, Cal isn't - doesn't find - Cal finds that frustrating, rightly so. But Jackson isn't ready to kind of be like, "Wait, does this make me queer? Like, what does that mean if I'm attracted to somebody who's not a woman?" And yeah, I just wanted to get your kind of thoughts on that. Because I feel like, it might be a case of like, "Oh, if you're nonbinary, the easiest thing to do is like date bisexual people, because then they'll be more accepting of your gender and like understanding." So what does happen if a nonbinary person is dating a straight person? And like navigating that whole discussion between people in terms of like what does that then mean for that person's sexual orientation and identity and like all of that? Like is, is that a thing that you see come up in terms of like conversations that are being had between partners, especially like if somebody is coming out whilst in a relationship as well?
Dee
So that's actually something that I spoke with a follower about recently. They reached out to me, because they had that same experience. Their partner has just come out as non binary, but they are a cis straight man, and they didn't know what to do in that situation. And my advice, or my - the information I gave him was that your partner's gender identity doesn't affect your sexuality. They're not - they're not affecting of each other. So that's why for example, you can have lesbians who are in relationship with non binary people, and that's still a very valid identity. So your sexuality isn't impacted or dictated by your partner's gender identity. However, you do want to affirm your partner's gender identity and if you identify as straight then, are you saying "Well, my partner is..." - are you focusing on your partner's biology rather than their gender identity? And that's a really complicated thing. So yeah, I think when it comes down to, as I said, your sexuality and your partner's gender identity are not the same. However, if you are able to be intimate and have these relationships with somebody who is not cisgender, maybe have a think with yourself about what that means. And even if you don't go too deep into it, maybe consider, "Does this open up my horizon for different identities?" And a lot of the time, people will say that they're queer if they have a non binary partner, because that's just like an easy go to term, which I love. I love the term queer. And I do think it is a go to term if you're figuring things out, because it doesn't say specifically what you are. But it says you are flirting with the idea that you're not straight.
But if you're non binary, in my opinion, I found that I prefer to date queer people, because - not only because they saw me as non binary, but they understood it a little bit more than cisgender straight people and from my experiences, I felt more affirmed in queer relationships. But that was a personal preference. That doesn't mean that every non binary person feels the same. They may have a straight partner, and they may feel completely fine with the fact that they identify as straight, because they're so solid in their gender identity that it's okay. So it really is down to the person. And it's really down to having a conversation with each other as well to see if maybe you can come up with something together and maybe see if how you identify affects your partner, maybe have a conversation as to why that is and what that means, and maybe what labels you could use. Or maybe you just don't label yourself. Maybe you just say, "My partner's non binary, and I'm dating them at the minute. And that's all that matters. You don't have to know about my sexuality, because right now, this is my partner. And that's it." And that could be a good thing to do, or a good way to kind of avoid labels, because I do think labels can be really restricting at times, especially if you're new in the community; they can be really scary. And it feels like you have to grasp at a label. And you don't. You can be like labelless. I was labelless for a few years. And that was probably the most freeing I felt for a very long time because I didn't have to tell anyone what I was. I was just like, "I like him. I like her. I like them. That's it, doesn't matter."
Hannah Witton
What do you think of the terms like heteroflexible and homoflexible? I feel like they could do, you know, give you a little bit of like breathing - a little bit of breathing room? Maybe? In those kinds of scenarios?
Dee
I definitely think so. I think - I think obviously, these labels are created because people want to feel grounded, and they want to feel as part of the community and that they can put words to something that they feel. But I also think that it's not always necessary. You can just say, "I'm in love with this person" or "I'm sleeping with this person." Like sometimes it's okay to not create another word, or to attach yourself to a word, but if you want to, go for it, and, you know, it can help you, as you said, like dabble in and kind of figure out where you're going. And if it works for you, it works for you. And as long as nobody's getting hurt, do as you please.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the whole kind of like centering - it being like this is who I'm in a relationship with right now. Um, obviously, that works if you're currently in a relationship - if you're single, less so, but it might be more about like, this is who I'm crushing on. But it reminds me this conversation I was having with a friend of mine who is a cis gay man. And we basically realised that we are attracted to the same people. But I'm attracted to those people from like a straight woman perspective and him from a gay man perspective. But the labels that we use, like, I'm straight, he's gay. So even though we're attracted to the same people, we have different labels. And we were like, "Oh my god, what if we actually stop using like sexual orientation labels that include your own identity? And actually, it'd be only about who you fancy?" And then we just, I don't know, we just feel like it's - it was, I think it was like one of those like, one too many gins moments. Like, "Wait, I know, we've solved it, like, why don't we just do this instead?"
Dee
I think that could definitely work. There are identities that are less focused on you. And it's more about the dynamic of the relationship at the moment. So for example - I hope I pronounce this right - it's Enbian. And it's non binary people who are attracted to other non binary people or who are in relationships with non binary people. So that's like an identity in of itself that doesn't focus too much on you but focuses on the relationship you're currently in or there's the people that you're currently - like women loving women or T4T, those kinds of orientations focus less on you as an identity - like you, and more the current situation that you're in, or the current relationship that you're in. And that could be a good way of not putting the label on yourself, but just on what you currently have, or what you're currently into. So it could change from day to day, if you think, "Oh, I'm, I'm into women. So I'm like women loving women" and then the next day you could be men loving men, and so on and so forth.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. I just feel like there's a lot more creativity to be had, in the way that we think about gender and sexuality. Like you said, sometimes the labels that currently do exist can be quite restrictive, even though obviously, they they're also a way that many people feel like a sense of community and belonging, kind of like, it's all the same.
Got a bunch of questions from folks on Instagram. And actually one of them kind of ties into what we were talking about but like, from a different perspective, like the other side, so somebody said: ways to explore gender identity while in a cis straight relationship? What to say to partner? So like, yeah, if there's something that you are currently going through solo, like how to then like broach that with your partner.
Dee
So I went through this. I was in a three year relationship with a cisgender straight man and I began questioning my gender identity about two and a half years into it, two years into it. And I was in full panic mode. I was anxious beyond anxious. I was literally scared to tell him because I knew he - I knew his sexuality. And then in my mind, I thought, "If I'm not that, if I'm not what he's attracted to, then he's gonna leave," and all this kind of stuff. So for a while, I actually didn't tell him and I kept it in and that I - as we know, buttoning things up does not work. And I got to the point where I was just so frustrated whenever I heard the term "girlfriend", and I hated it, because I was like, "I'm not that." And I just didn't feel comfortable with it. So I started to slowly introduce gender neutral terms to him and words. So I would say things like, "Oh, why don't we use partner instead of girlfriend? Because it sounds more mature." Or, "Why don't we use this instead of that."
And then eventually, one day, I did bring up to him that I wanted to use different pronouns. And I explained what that meant. And at the time, I wasn't nonbinary. But I was like, dabbling in they - they and she pronouns at the time. And he said, you know, he'll try his best, he'll to try to remember, and I think the best thing that I did was I took it very slow. And I said, "Look, it's okay to make mistakes. I still misgender myself. It's alright. You know, you're gonna make mistakes. It's okay, we can do this together. But I want you to know, these words don't make me feel comfortable. Can we not use them?" So girlfriend, girl - in the bedroom, as well as which was quite hard, because I'm - I like to communicate a lot in the bedroom. And a lot of those terms are unfortunately gendered.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dee
So I had to say, "Can we not use them? Can we use gender neutral terms? Or can we come up with some cute, fun nicknames in the bedroom that aren't gendered." Which was really fun eventually, after we'd kind of got through the first awkwardness of we're about to say it and then go "Aaah.. actually no." But yeah, it was - a my, my biggest piece of advice would be, if you're with somebody who isn't part of the community, they may not know a lot about what you're experiencing, or even nonbinaryness or transness if you're thinking of transitioning. So give them information as well. You don't have to be the educator, but you can maybe say, "Hey, here's a post that kind of explains it." Or a video. "Here's how I'm feeling." And maybe write it down if you don't feel comfortable talking to the person. I preferred texting my partner, because I was able to really write it out and get my words in such a way that was concise and it made sense to me. And it didn't mean that I had to panic, or - it was just all perfectly written down. So then he could also refer back to it as well, which is a good thing, because sometimes they may forget like, "Oh, is it - is it they? Or is it she? Is it this today? Is it that?"
Hannah Witton
Just like having a cheat sheet for your partner?
Dee
Yeah. And then just saying, "Okay, this doesn't make me feel comfortable. This doesn't make me feel comfortable. But this does." So replacing words or terms or things. So for example, I didn't like my partner picking me up too much, because that felt - because of his stature and stuff, that felt quite feminine to me, and I didn't feel comfortable with it. So we changed it to just holding hands and stuff like that. So you're able to say, "This doesn't make me feel comfortable. But here's an alternative that's just as fun as well."
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dee
But - and he did get it. Obviously, he made mistakes here and there, but that's part of learning as well. And then eventually, when I did come out as non binary, I explained to him what that meant and what that meant in terms of language going forward. And then that's when he actually said to me, like, "Oh, so what does that mean for me? Like, am I queer now?" And I was like, "That's up to you."
Hannah Witton
"Up to you!"
Dee
"You decide." And from there, yeah, that was with that partner. And now my current partner only knows me as non binary. But I've begin to dabble with using more masculine terms and using he and him just as like fun. And he quite enjoys that as well. And he knows it affirms me. So he'll just throw a little he into the sentence. And I'm like, "Oh, thank you." So yeah.
Hannah Witton
Aw, I love that. Hopefully that that helps as well, this person asking. Good luck. Somebody asked: how can non binary people talk about sex and intimacy without disclosing slash centering their assigned gender at birth?
Dee
Good question. So if you're - I'm guessing this is probably from like a dating perspective, I want to say. From like...
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's probably a more generally talking about sex and intimacy, because once you get talking about it specifically with someone who you are gonna have sex with your assigned, like, gender, or your assigned sex at birth is relevant. Or at least the the mechanics that you're working with, the body parts you're working with, become relevant there, but they're not in general conversations about sex and intimacy.
Dee
Could you repeat it one more time, please.
Hannah Witton
They have said: how can non binary people talk about sex and intimacy without disclosing slash centering their assigned gender at birth?
Dee
So, for me, something that I had to unlearn is that body parts equal gender or body parts equal sex in terms of the overarching term. So for me, when I talk about sex, I'll talk about body parts. And I've - I've been able to do degender them. So when I talk about a penis or a vulva, I don't see it in the gendered way, I just see it as it is. And so a lot of the time when, as a sex educator, when I say these terms, I don't mean them in a gendered way at all. I mean them in just like, this is a body part, just like this is a hand.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dee
It isn't a man hand or a female hand or whatever hand, it's a hand. So I think learning to separate body parts from gender is a really good way of allowing yourself to not feel so uncomfortable with talking about sex in that way. And understanding that body parts are just body parts, that they don't, you know, anyone could have that body part. And most people have that body part. But if you want to completely remove the focus of genitals, or body part, or sex from the equation, just talking about things like that work for you - I'm trying to word this.
Hannah Witton
I guess it's kind of like sex isn't just about like the sex acts and the genitals involved. A lot of it is about how you feel. And like you said before, about the dynamics as well. So that's a way of talking about sex and intimacy, without getting into the like, "And then this happened with a penis."
Dee
As well as talking about what feels good for you, what doesn't feel good for you, what's off limits, what's great. And, you know, you can also talk about sex toys without it being related to genitalia as well: you can use terms like penetration, which could be anyone's game, or external and internal usage. So changing the language I think is really important and learning to use language that is universal, like internal and external is really good and is a good way to kind of suggest what you mean by meaning like either vaginal or anal penetration, but without stating it. So it's still inclusive to most people. And then in terms of like roles and that within like the bedroom and that, it's all - it's all everybody's game. They don't - they don't have any sex or gender. It's whatever you want it to be.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Well, Dee, thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful. Please, please plug away like all of the amazing work that you do, and where people can find more of you on the internet and in life.
Dee
So I am on Instagram, I am @s3xtheorywithdemi. And I also work at Pink News and I create a lot of sex ed content via that. I also do a lot of talks with Just Like Us and other organisations and I'm always willing to be loaned out for a sex education workshop or a talk. I'm also on Twitter @s3xtheorydemi and on TikTok with @s3xtheorywithdemi as well. So they're the kind of places you can find me. You'll probably see my face on PinkNews somewhere as well, so. But yeah, that's me.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye!