How To Know If You're Asexual & Ace Dad Advice with Cody Daigle-Orians | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I am joined by the brilliant Cody Daigle-Orians. Cody is an asexuality educator and writer. He is the creator of Ace Dad Advice, a social media based asexuality education project designed to support young people exploring asexuality and anyone questioning their sexual orientation. The project provides clear accessible information on asexuality as well as advice and encouragement on living your best ace life. And his book, I Am Ace, one of the first YA nonfiction books on asexuality, is out tomorrow from when this episode goes out. So please do go and buy and support Cody's important work.
We've had so many requests to explore asexuality more on the show. And so I wanted to get Cody on to share all of his brilliant advice and expertise on how to explore if you are asexual and how to live your best life if you are. Cody talked about how it's actually a very large spectrum and people can have all sorts of experiences underneath the asexual umbrella, including things like greysexuality, and demisexuality. We talked about what sexual attraction actually means, and the difference between romantic and sexual attraction and lots of other different kinds of attractions. Cody also talked about learning about asexuality later in life and his journey from coming out as gay when he was 18 to understanding he was asexual at the age of 42. All thanks to Tumblr.
Cody talked about growing up and how he always felt out of step with his gay peers because he wasn't connected to sex in the same way as other gay people around him, and how that made him feel like a bad gay. We talked about how important the language of asexuality was in then understanding that he isn't broken. And why he wrote this book to create a tool that was the book that he needed when he was a young person but never had.
Cody gave lots of advice on how to know you're asexual and the importance of having a lot of questions and giving yourself the space to not know everything or have all of the answers right away. We talked about asexuality and dating and Cody spoke on how to regain confidence after getting rejected for being asexual. And also Cody drew on his own experience of being in a polyamorous marriage with allosexual people and how it can absolutely work to have ace and allo relationships. We discussed whether ace and allo relationships can also work if monogamous, and how, like all relationships, they require communication. And this is something that you need to do with your partner and to collaborate together to make it work. I loved how Cody talked about exploring your sexuality and understanding if you're asexual as a continuous journey and to give yourself permission to ask all of the questions that you want to.
As usual you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram @doing it podcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is greatly appreciated. And without further ado, here's my chat with Cody.
Hello, Cody. Welcome to the podcast. Absolute pleasure to have you here. How are you?
Cody Daigle-Orians
I am great. I'm really happy to be here.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm happy too. I'm really excited to get into a lot of the work that you do around ace dad advice. Sounds so cool. And I guess first off for any listeners who haven't come across asexuality before or are just interested in hearing your take on it: how do you define asexuality?
Cody Daigle-Orians
So asexuality is a sexual orientation that describes people who don't or rarely experience sexual attraction. Seems pretty straightforward, but that really describes a very wide variety of experiences that people have with sexual attraction and also their relationships to sex. It's not just about the kind of sex or the amount of sex someone wants to have or doesn't want to have. It's about their relationship to sexual attraction.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so can we define sexual attraction?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Okay. Yeah. So once you get that it gets into like these like really complicated definitions. So sexual attraction is broadly understood as the kind of attraction you feel for a person or a kind of person that makes you want to have sex with them. So a lot of times, we sort of talk about sexual attraction through like this hunger metaphor, like hungry, you can just sort of feel generally hungry for something but nothing in particular. And that's sort of like libido or arousal, that kind of - that side of things. But attraction would be like, "I am hungry for pizza." That direction, attraction, and wanting to have sex. That's attraction.
Hannah Witton
Do you know what, I'm so here for food and sex metaphors. Like, I honestly think that they work so, so well sometimes, it's excellent.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Everybody eats. So everybody understands
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's some connection there. But, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, because I think we can conflate things like sexual attraction and sexual desire and arousal. But when it comes to asexuality, we're talking specifically about sexual attraction. So when it's directed at somebody in particular, or a particular gender, or genders, as well.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Or a particular gender, yeah, and that's, you know, human sexuality is incredibly complicated. So that is a very broad, open kind of way to begin. It's much more nuanced and complicated as you sort of explore into it. But in a broad sense that is a useful way to start a conversation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And so what are some of the kind of like more specific identities and terms that kind of come under this, like big asexual umbrella?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Sure. So under the larger umbrella of asexuality there are folks who don't experience sexual attraction ever. And generally, they sort of refer to themselves as asexual. I fall under that part of the asexual umbrella. But there are people in the community that do occasionally or under certain circumstances experience sexual attraction. So greysexual folks will sometimes experience it, or will sort of experience it at a very low level to where it really has no impact on their lives. But they do sort of experience it. So it's in that grey space. And demisexual folks are also under the asexual umbrella. So for demi folks, they don't experience sexual attraction. But when they develop an emotional connection to someone, they can experience attraction - sexual attraction to them. So it's under that specific circumstance that it happens.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then again, just like recognising the difference between like sexual and romantic attraction as well.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Right, right, because those two are still separate. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. How did you first come across the term asexual and what was that like for you in terms of going, "Ooh, that's me"?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Sure. So that happened late in life. I'm 46 now. I didn't come out as asexual until I was 42.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah. When I came out, I first came out as gay at 18. And so I understood I was queer. But that was sort of how I understood my queerness. And it wasn't until my husband introduced me to Tumblr that I started to -
Hannah Witton
Amazing.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, so thank you, millennial husband and Tumblr. I would encounter posts about asexuality, hearing asexual people talk about their experiences and what asexuality meant to them, how they lived it. And I recognised myself in those posts, and in those stories, and that was how I connected asexuality to what I had been experiencing my whole life. I just hadn't, until that point, had the language for it.
Hannah Witton
What kind of were those earlier experiences of like figuring that out without having the language or really understanding that there was like an identity that was what you were experiencing and what you were feeling? Like, did you kind of just think, "Oh, I've just got a really low libido?" Or like, what, like, what was that like for you?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah. So I knew that I was interested in having relationships with other guys. And so that language of gay made sense to me. But I always felt sort of out of step with my gay peers, because sex didn't mean as much to me. I didn't - I didn't prioritise it or it didn't - I didn't - wasn't connected to it in the same sort of way. And I did, I assumed, "Well, I'm gay, but I'm maybe just a bad gay. Maybe I'm just like a lousy -"
Hannah Witton
Oh no!
Cody Daigle-Orians
Right? Or, or, you know, "There's just something wrong with my hormones or just my libido is really low, or there's just something wrong with me." I never - I didn't have access to the language or the experiences to connect what I was experiencing to something that wasn't broken, which is what I had sort of assumed was happening. That wouldn't come until a whole lot later.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I guess like, I feel like that's probably something that a lot of people can relate to when it comes to experiencing like any kind of like queerness, potentially, when you're like don't have the language for it and you're not really sure like, "Why do I feel this certain way? Like, am I broken?" Like how - like, was it - how did you kind of like, deal with that up until the moment of like, "Oh! This!" Were there - was it a constant struggle? Or were there things that you kind of did to kind of like help you through that time of being like, confused? Maybe?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, it was - it was always sort of a struggle to find self confidence as a queer person and to find like confidence especially in relationships, pursuing relationships, or sort of existing in the community that way. I didn't handle it very well. I just I sort of internalised it all and just sort of assumed there was, you know, I wasn't - I just wasn't up with my peers. Always feeling just really out of step with the community that I was a part of. Yeah, it was - it was always a struggle, and I'm finding now as an openly ace person, I'm still unpacking a lot of that stuff that happened as I was going through that time, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you feel like there is a lot more understanding and acceptance now in the queer community around asexuality? And so like, for younger ace people now, who are also queer, that it might be a better experience? Hopefully?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Oh, yes, it'd be certainly because now there are places, particularly online, there are places where other young ace people can connect with each other and share their experiences and realise that they are not alone. There are more resources, there's - we're starting to see more representation in some television shows, in books, so people have more access now to information about it so it's not so hard to find.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And we even have the A at the end of like LGBTQIA. As a - standing for asexual and aromantic.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Exactly, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're there, you made it. So I wanted to talk about your book, Ace Dad Advice. How did how did this come about? Why is it something that you wanted to write? And who is it for?
Cody Daigle-Orians
The book happened rather quickly and it was - it was the publisher reached out to me based on the work I was doing online, And was like, "Hey, I, we we're really interested in what you're doing. Would you ever be interested in turning it into a book?" And I jumped at the opportunity to do that. Yeah, the book takes all of the work that I've been doing online under Ace Dad Advice and turns it into a book form that kind of takes someone - the goal of the book was to take someone from the first question of like, what is asexuality and is that me? All the way through an understanding of how as an asexual person you can exist in the world and how asexuality exists in the world. So it's aimed to be helpful to answer all the basic questions, to be an empowering tool. It's basically the book I needed when I was 18. And the book I didn't have so that's, that's the boo. It's called I Am Ace.
Hannah Witton
Nice, there you go, plug plug plug. And at the time that this episode is coming out, it will be like out now or imminently. So.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Awesome.
Hannah Witton
Excellent stuff. So in terms of young people who might be accessing your Ace Dad Advice, and also your book and stuff, how, like, what is kind of like your advice, I guess, around young people who are trying to figure out like am I asexual? Or am I just like, not ready? Or like just not interested in sex yet? Because obviously, like everybody like comes to that at different times or not at all. And so, yeah, what's kind of your advice around that and like in terms of like, navigating that coming of age, and trying to figure out like, am I a late bloomer, or am I ace?
Cody Daigle-Orians
So I always really encourage people to not - first of all, don't be afraid of having questions and having a lot of questions. Identity is really complicated. And it's - and especially if you're exploring asexuality, your asexuality isn't going to be existing in a silo, it's going to exist in all of your identities and how they intersect. So when you're undertaking this journey, be open to having a lot of questions, and asking them, and pursuing those answers, and giving yourself space to not know everything right away, but to walk slowly and learn and absorb and try things on as you go. I think the best - for me, the best thing that I gave myself was permission to try different parts of asexuality on as I went along to see what best fit for me. And I didn't have to have all the answers right away. You don't have to have all the answers right away. You can take your time, explore, be curious, absorb as much as you can, until you find the thing that is the right fit for you. I think there's a lot of pressure for us to know the answer right away as soon as we we sort of suspect there might be some bit of queerness in us, to know immediately what that is. It's a journey, take yourself on that journey, and give yourself space to happen.
Hannah Witton
And it sounds so simple just to like just ask questions. But when you're kind of - because of like heteronormativity and just like the really dominant and normative framework and like path that is set out for people, like you just kind of start on it and you don't ask any questions. And you don't - you don't even think to, so I think it's a really great thing to just like, give people permission, to be like, "Hey, ask questions, like, the whole time." It also makes me think that - it makes it makes me mad, actually, that the kind of thing of "it's a phase" is like weaponized against queer people who are like, "No, I know who I am. I know what I am. It's not a phase." Like it's something that they constantly have to battle against in order to be taken seriously. And I wish that that wasn't the case. Because like you said, like you can try things on. And actually something being a phase is okay. But it's often - because it is often weaponized against queer people, it can be seen as then you're not queer enough, or whatever. It just makes things like so much more complicated. And I just like, it's fine to ask questions, and for things to be a phase, but it's also fine to like, you know, be a four year old who's just like, "This is me."
Cody Daigle-Orians
Absolutely. Well, I think too, when people sort of mention it as a phase, the connotation is that it's like, it's like a frivolous choice you're making or, or something that you're not taking very seriously. And we really - what the "it's a phase" suggests is that we are changeable creatures, we evolve and grow over time, we can't stay stagnant in - or we don't have to stay stagnant in one thing for our whole lives. As we move through life, we can change and grow. And you know, those things weren't frivolous phases that we didn't take seriously. It was just a truth at this point. And now there's a new truth here. And that's a beautiful thing.
Hannah Witton
It is indeed. Also, I wanted to ask about parenting, and like having conversations with kids, and so like younger than teenagers, so we're kind of like before adolescence - what's a good way to kind of like bring up things like asexuality and aromanticism as well with younger kids to help them kind of like understand this full spectrum of orientations?
Cody Daigle-Orians
You know, so I think one of the best places to start is to address some of the cultural things that exist around asexuality and aromanticism. The ideas of like compulsory sexuality, this idea that sex is an essential thing for a person to be a real adult, or to be a true person, or to be happy. And also, you know, amatonormativity, the idea that you have to have romantic love in order to be a full person. If we can from the time kids are young empower them that you know like love and sex are great if those - that's what you want, wonderful, pursue those things. But if they aren't what you want, that doesn't mean you're broken. That's just another option that you have. There are lots of ways that we can experience the world. They can include love and sex, they don't have to. So not every story has to end in a happily ever after romantic love with a super hot sex life. Cool if it does, but it doesn't have to.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that starting from just kind of like breaking down the norms, because you'll just find, I guess, like in media and everything that they consume is that all of those assumptions are kind of like being made. And you always have to kind of be quite proactive in like, "Hey, guess what friendships can be just as fulfilling."
Cody Daigle-Orians
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But talking about romance: when it comes to dating as an asexual, what would be your advice in terms of dating when asexual when disclosing your asexuality either on dates or online dating?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Sure. So I think for people who know they're asexual, there's a lot of pressure that we feel to disclose immediately with potential partners because we're afraid of rejection and we are sort of socially conditioned to understand that rejection is probably inevitable, because, you know, who's going to have a relationship that won't include sex. I always encourage people though, to really take charge and, and power over when you disclose. You disclose when you are ready to with a potential partner. If you feel like the relationship is something that you want to invest that kind of time and emotional space in, then you you can disclose but you don't have to right away. It is not our job as ace people to to bend and change ourselves to make sure that allo people in our lives feel centred and fulfilled. Like, we can also ask for what we want too. And you know, if - when you are ready for that person to know that about you, and to start to navigate what that means in the terms of your relationship, then that's the time to do that. And I think it's also important for us to, when we do disclose, really know how to talk about it. Be sure that you can like talk about how asexuality works for you, what it means for you, and what your deal breakers are, what your yeses are, what are the things that you're open to exploring with a partner, so that when you do have that conversation, you are empowered, and you are ready to go, and are like as confident as you can be to enter that conversation with someone.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I guess it also kind of like, lays everything on the table, sets boundaries, sets expectations, so that everyone feels like they're on the same page. And also like when you feel empowered in that way, and you can be really upfront and honest about like your identity and how that works for you, it also, I guess, opens the door for the other person to do the same with you.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, I mean, when we should. Those - these are conversations that we should be having no matter ace or not. We should be talking about what we're into, what we don't want to do, what we want to explore. And we should feel comfortable about having those conversations. Yeah, like, if - as an ace person, you want to share those things with your partner but I want to hear those things back. I want to know what makes you turned on. And what would be fulfilling for you so that we can collaborate on what a fulfilling sex life for us as a couple would look like. And everyone should be doing that. Why isn't everyone doing that?
Hannah Witton
Everyone should be doing it, it's true. In terms of asexual people dating and having relationships with allosexual people, what advice do you have for those kinds of relationships? In terms of like, obviously, communicating the needs and stuff, but I feel like a lot of people would have like the assumption of like, "Oh, well, that could never work." But do you have some lovely positive stories of like ways that absolutely can work? And how?
Cody Daigle-Orians
I do; I live it. I am - I am married, in a polyamorous relationship. I have two partners. Both of them are allo folks. And we have a wonderful, intentional family all together.
Hannah Witton
Are you a triad? Or do you have two separate partners?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, there are four of us. So my husband and I are sort of -
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Cody Daigle-Orians
- my husband and I have been married for nine years. We each have other partners and the four of us are - we call ourselves the constellation. That is how we refer to our -
Hannah Witton
Aw!
Cody Daigle-Orians
Right? Isn't that - it's great.
Hannah Witton
So that's the name of your polycule? Am I getting my lingo right?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, my partner Scott is an astrophysicist so we thought it was appropriate that we call - the constellation is what we call it and I'm the only ace one in the constellation. It is absolutely possible for it to work. You do have to - you have to have a lot of conversations and also know that you have the right to ask for what you want from your partners. I think we feel like we have to change ourselves for our allo partners because so much of the world is built around allonormative ideas that being allo is the normal way to be and we are this somehow wrong way to be, and that's not how we should approach relationships. I always tell people: make sure with your allo partner, you're not apologising for your aceness, your aceness is what you bring to the table. It's part of you. It's part of what's made you uniquely you. They should celebrate that as much as you do and it should be part of how you negotiate the life and world you build together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I guess one of the first things that comes to my head that maybe some listeners are thinking, which is: is the only way to make an ace and allo relationship work polyamory? And are there ways to make it work within a monogamous context?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Certainly. I mean I think in a monogamous context, if you're asexual and sex is not part of your life, and you don't want to make it part of your relationships, it does become a lot harder to have a relationship with an allo partner. Like, not pretending that that's not complicated, and not very difficult. But, you know, all relationships require negotiation between the two people in them, and to sort of meet somewhere in the middle of who they are and what they want. So that's no different for an ace and allo couple. If you want to be in a monogamous relationship, and one of you is ace and one of you is allo, you just have to talk to each other and see if there is a place in the middle where both of you can be happy with that. It's not impossible. It isn't something that you should automatically take off the table. Is it harder? Sure. Being ace in the world -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I mean there will always -
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, it's harder. It's always going to be harder. But it's not impossible. You just have to be willing and find a partner who's also willing to come to the table and have conversations and collaborate with you on the relationship that you build together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, you can always find like allo couples who break up because of sexual incompatibility.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
And so, you know, it is, like you said, just about finding that common ground and like, how important is it to you, as well. Like, it might be a case of like, "Oh, that would be nice but actually, it's not a deal breaker." Yeah, so you're right. It absolutely can work. Yeah. So you mentioned that you have a husband and that you identify as gay. Do you still very much identify as gay since discovering your asexuality as well?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, I probably use queer more than anything.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Because it is a shorthand that - I often joke like, I say I'm queer, because then I don't have to do the PowerPoint of explaining all of the different parts and pieces of my - of like how it works. But yes, I mean, I still do very much identify as gay. That is a part of - that's how I build romantic relationships, it's a community that I've been - I was a part of for my whole adult life. They exist together now in a way that is mostly harmonious. Mostly harmonious. But queer is normally where I will land mostly just because I - it's easier sometimes to just say queer.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What kind of advice do you have for people when it comes to - like ace people - when it comes to exploring and figuring out like what their romantic orientation might be? And like how within their asexuality be able to kind of affirm that, I guess. Like, feel like a part of that, especially like if they are queer.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah. So I think it's, again, it's about allowing yourself the space to ask as many questions as you need to. And I think particularly whenever you were sort of making that distinction as an ace person trying to figure out what your romantic connections are, try not to let the baggage of your ace journey impact that journey as you're figuring yourself out romantically. Just try to, like, follow what it is your heart and mind is telling you about who you want to have those romantic relationships with. You can figure out later how to shove those two things together and how to make those two sides work. But when you're just exploring and figuring it out, focus on the one part and figure out what you are drawn to in that respect.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Okay. We've got a whole bunch of questions from Instagram. Lots of people wanting that ace dad advice.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Cool.
Hannah Witton
And so, yeah, I just wanted to dive into some of them. Somebody asked: tips for understanding whether it's grey asexuality or you're just not that into them? I love this question.
Cody Daigle-Orians
That is a really challenging question. I think for - it's about understanding how you identify with attraction. Like how you in yourself have described - defined what attraction is, what sexual attraction is, and so that's like the thing that you're in the grey area about, and then lining that up with whatever feeling is going on with this person that you're not quite so sure about. Knowing that you know what attraction is and isn't and you're defining that for yourself, then you can decide if this is an example of, "Nah, I'm just not feeling so much sexual attraction to this person" or "Nah, I'm just not - I'm just not vibing with this person."
Hannah Witton
Overall.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Overall, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because you might feel yourself drawn to them, like, in other ways, like romantically. And so yeah, like figuring yourself out and really knowing like, how does it feel to you when you are romantically attracted to someone? How does it feel to you when you're not? Or how does it feel to you when you do experience some sexual attraction? And being able to kind of like hone that and be like, "Aha, I understand how I'm feeling about this person now."
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah. And it's really important for us to -
Hannah Witton
It takes practice for everyone.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah. And I think it's really important for us to remember that we get to decide what our feelings are. We get to decide whether this thing is attraction or not. It's not about external people making those decisions for us. We decide whether we are feeling that, we decide what it is, because no one else knows what you're feeling except for you. You're the authority. Take that role. Decide for yourself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there you go. Figure - you can figure it out. You have all of the tools you need. You've got this. Someone asked: how do I regain confidence after getting rejected for being asexual? And they've said in a romantic sense. So romantic confidence, moving forwards.
Cody Daigle-Orians
I think it's really important to remember that people's - when someone rejects you for being ace, that is about them. That is about something in them. And that is not a reflection of a truth about you. People have the right to decide whether or not they want to pursue relationships or not. That's just how it goes. Just as we do as well: we get to decide who we are in relationship with; they get to decide that too. Remember that what it - however they've come to that decision is about them. It is not about you, it is not about your aceness, and it says nothing about the value of your aceness in your life or you in the world.
Hannah Witton
Exactly. Well said. Someone asked: how do you navigate sex in a relationship, especially if your partner is allosexual?
Cody Daigle-Orians
You're going to have to talk a lot. You're gonna have to talk.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Cody Daigle-Orians
It's really important to just be clear with yourself about what's on the menu and what isn't. Know for yourself: these are the things - these are the things around physical intimacy and sex that I am comfortable with; these are the things that are absolutely off the table; here's the stuff in the middle that I'm open to talking about; we can work on this together. And then presenting that to your allo partner and going, "Alright, this is this is what I know. Let's start from there." So you know, if you have things that you are comfortable with physically, that's a place for you to begin with an allo partner. The middle part is - and it's negotiable too. This can change as you go. As your relationship develops, if you feel like there are more things you want to explore, great, add those to the menu, but continually talk about it be open about where you are, have them be open about where they are too. Think about building your physical - your intimate relationship with your partner as a collaborative effort. It's not something either one of you has to make work on your own. You're building that together. So have fun, play, explore. Create something cool together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Create like your want, will, won't lists together.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
And for anyone listening who is like, "Wait, wait, hang on a second, I thought asexual people didn't like sex or don't have sex." Can we just do a quick clarification about why some asexual people might actually have sex in relationships?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, sure. So asexuality is just about our experience of sexual attraction. That doesn't mean that we are not having sex. There are some ace folks who do enjoy sex and seek it out. Because there are more reasons that we have sex than just being sexually attracted to someone. We can have sex because we enjoy what it feels like. We can have sex because we enjoy pleasing our partners or we enjoy the closeness. I include sex in my relationships because it's a way for me to express my other attractions to my partners and to experience like closeness with them. So there's like - there's a a menu of things I'm comfortable with sexually that I participate in with my partner's not because I'm attracted to them sexually, but because I like them. And it's a fun thing for us to do together. And, you know, it's like it's fun sometimes. There are all those reasons why we can -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and listeners need to - yeah -
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, there are all those reasons.
Hannah Witton
- need to think about like, yeah, all of the times that you may have had sex with someone who you actually weren't really that attracted to. Like. Come on.
Cody Daigle-Orians
We all do it. Like it happens. It totally happens.
Hannah Witton
I just heard something that you said. And it like, fired off my brain. But I have no idea if this will actually lead anywhere. But you said, "other attractions," plural, that you have to your partners. And the other one that I can think of is like romantic attraction, and then maybe like, throw in, like aesthetic attraction? Or are there like specific other attractions that you have in mind when you say attractions, plural?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Yeah, I mean, I think about things like emotional attraction, you know, just really sort of liking about - liking the way that they communicate their feelings or make me feel. Intellectual attraction, liking the way they think, and the way they sort of view the world. There are all these lenses through which we can experience attraction to someone. I mean, I'm aesthetically attracted to my partners, I think they're, they're handsome gentleman. And so like, that's one way I can be attracted to them. And it's actually a way that, when I have begun relationships, tried to sort of frame why it's cool to date an ace person. You know, sexual attraction isn't the only way that one can be attracted to you. I can be attracted to you in a lot of different ways. There's just this one that's not on the table for me, that's just not possible. But there are all these other ways: I can be romantically into you aesthetically, intellectually, emotionally. There are all these other ways that we can connect and vibe and build something.
Hannah Witton
I really love that framing because I feel like we often put like sexual attraction and also like romantic attraction, kind of like the two together and that they have to be in sync, like we very much like put them as these are the most important and these like are absolutely necessary for like a healthy, happy relationship to occur. And like you just talking about that, like made me think of like, "Oh, attraction plays into all of my friendships as well, then."
Cody Daigle-Orians
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we're definitely attracted to our friends in a whole bunch of ways that keep those relationships thriving and keep them exciting for us and fulfilling for us. The same is true in any kind of romantic relationship or partnership you're building with someone that's not a friendship necessarily.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that. You mentioned near the beginning about kind of like there being a lot more ace representation. And somebody actually asked: do you have any recommendations for stories, film, books, TV with a sexless romantic relationship?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Um, there's a wonderful book by TJ Klune called How to Be a Normal Person that is a very sweet male/male, one of the characters is ace, romantic book, lovely. There's no sex on the table in the book, but it's incredibly charming and very well written. TJ Klune is asexual so it's - it's accurate.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Cody Daigle-Orians
And the books of Alice - the books of Alice Osman, like Loveless.
Hannah Witton
Loveless, mmhmm.
Cody Daigle-Orians
She's wonderful and that's definitely really positive representation that is also a delight to read.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've not read Loveless. I'm a big Heartstopper fan.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Very much so yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I absolutely love it. Okay, and then somebody has asked: how can I know for sure that I am on the ace spectrum? I feel like, I want to hone - like, we've kind of like gone through this a lot. But it's one of the main questions that I see coming in. It's just like, how do I know that I am asexual? Yeah.
Cody Daigle-Orians
So it maybe will feel like an unsatisfying answer, but I would say you don't have to know for sure. You just have to - if asexuality resonates with you, if calling yourself ace and using it to describe what you experience in the world feels right, then it's right. If it helps you find community, it's the right words for you. There isn't a checklist that exists that like says you have to hit all these things and the ace police are going to come to your house if you don't hit the checklist and cart you off, like that's not going to happen. Taking the pressure off yourself to knowing for sure - who knows for sure about anything about themselves.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No idea. You figured it out in your 40s!
Cody Daigle-Orians
In my 40s.
Hannah Witton
And perhaps still figuring things out, who knows.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Who knows what's going to change as time goes on. But if in the moment right now asexuality describes what you're experiencing, it feels right to you, and it feels empowering and makes you feel more like yourself: that's how you know.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Okay, you've given a lot of advice, and your whole thing is like Ace Dad Advice. But my final question to you is: what's the best piece of advice around like asexuality and relationships that you've ever received?
Cody Daigle-Orians
Best piece of advice that anybody ever gave me? When I was in therapy, when I first came out, I met with a therapist for a while, because I was really trying to sort all this stuff out. And it was just really, really complicated. And I was having such a hard time about it. And I mostly was really just sort of freaking out about all the ways that me being ace would change my relationships, and it would change the way people saw me. And it would change all those things. I was really freaking out about them. And my therapist just said, "What's the worst thing that would happen if you became a better version of yourself?" And I was like, "Oh, I mean, I guess if you put it that way. You put it that way. I guess nothing." Right? Like recognising that while yes, change can be very disruptive in your life and in the world, if you are moving towards something more complete or better, what's the worst that could happen? You're becoming a more complete you. Just go with it and see where that road leads. Don't freak out so much about positive change.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that. Cody, thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful. Where can people find your work online? And also, once again, please plug your book.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Oh, sure. So I am kind of everywhere on social media. I'm on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, you can find me as at @acedadadvice. I'm also on YouTube as Ace Dad Advice. And my book is called I Am Ace: Advice on Living Your Best Asexual Life. It comes out in January 2023. And it's everything you love about the online stuff in a book form. I'm really excited about it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, congrats on that. I'm very excited too.
Cody Daigle-Orians
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
And thank you all so much for listening. Goodbye.