Combating Kink Shame, De-Gendering BDSM & Jewish Sexual Values with Emerson Karsh | Transcript
CW: sexual assault, discussions of abusive relationships, discussion of abortion, brief mention of racial violence and police brutality, discussion of raceplay and Nazi Germany kink play.
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone and welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I am joined by the brilliant Emerson Karsh. Emerson is a sex and kink educator, content creator, and writer and the person behind the Instagram account @thekinkeducator. She has a degree in human sexuality and her work aims to make kink and sex education accessible to everyone.
I wanted to get Emerson on the podcast after reading their posts about the risks of the show How to Build a Sex Room from a kink educator's perspective to talk more about kink. We covered so many interesting topics: first off, how Emerson has always been kinky from a young age but then seeing so many friends getting into kink later in life without any information made her see the need to provide education around kink. Emerson also shared with me about her first time entering a dom and sub partnership whilst at college, but without fully understanding consent and finding herself in an abusive, toxic dynamic. And while studying for her degree in human sexuality, for the first time learning about consent helped her realise the relationship that she was in was very unhealthy and that she had been experiencing sexual assault. Emerson talked about the importance of having proper kink education and kink communities like FetLife being so crucial and helpful for understanding what is and isn't healthy kink dynamics.
We talked about the show How to Build a Sex Room, what Emerson thought was positive about the show, including the featuring of taboo kinks, but also several problems, like going against people's consent, and doing things that made many participants uncomfortable, as well as a lack of education around kink practice. We had a really interesting conversation about what degendering kink means, how kink can often be gendered, especially when it comes to the expression of dominance and submission, and how to explore submission in a way that isn't stereotypical to being female if that's not what you want.
We also spoke about Emerson being Jewish and the messages Emerson got around sex from Judaism, including the practice that sexual pleasure is very important and it is a Jewish value that divorce is permitted if your wife is not being satisfied sexually. Emerson also talked about the relationship between Jews and abortion and that abortion is not illegal in Judaism. Rather, reproductive justice is a Jewish value. We also talked about what it is like being Jewish in kink spaces, and that whilst Emerson hadn't experienced antisemitism in the kinkcommunity, Nazi raceplay does often happen in power dynamic play in kink spaces, and that she would like people who engage in it to be more sensitive of how it impacts Jewish people. I really enjoyed this conversation with Emerson and getting to learn more about Jewish values around sex that I didn't know before.
And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really, really appreciated. And we have a bonus episode for you over on my Patreon. You can hear me and my producer, Mia, debrief after this episode in our little Patreon exclusive series called So... How Was That for You? And thank you so much to our patrons who make this podcast possible. I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode. Here is the brilliant Emerson Karsh.
Hannah Witton
Welcome, Emerson, to the podcast. So excited to chat with you. How are you doing?
Emerson Karsh
I'm good. How are you? I'm excited to be here.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. What timezone are you and where are you at? Like, it's evening for me as we're recording? Where are you? What -
Emerson Karsh
Midde of the day, in Colorado, and it's bright and sunny. And it's like 11am here.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice. Well, pitch black outside, from my view. But yeah, I'm really excited to get you on the podcast and talk about you and your work. And I guess like, just to start with: how did you come to be a kink sex educator?
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, that's a great question. I studied human sexuality in college and, you know, that really ignited my interest in sex and sexuality. And while I was studying it, I started to personally get into kink. And I noticed that a lot of my peers and friends were also doing, you know, kink activities, and they weren't getting the right like resources and tools. And I was like, "Where are all these tools? Like, where's all this education?" So then I went down the rabbit hole of kink education and I realised that like, it was something that I loved and I loved to do and at that time, I was doing sexual assault prevention education work and talking a lot about consent. And then I learned a lot about, you know, how the kink community views consent and I was like, "I wanna marriage like all of this information." And then, you know, the pandemic happened. And I was like, learning a lot from Instagram, and you know, spending my time on social media. And you know, I got my degree, and I was like, "Okay, this is it." And then I started doing social media work, then I started working in, you know, a community clinic that did a lot of sex education, STI testing, you know, wellness exams, abortion care, and that's where, you know, my in person education married itself to my social media education.
Hannah Witton
That's amazing that you have that like clinic experience as well. I also feel like a lot of - there was a lot of like sex educators on social media like since the pandemic started as well. Like, a lot of people are getting that information from places like Instagram and TikTok. I'm really curious that your peers that you mentioned who were like getting into kink, and BDSM - where were they getting their like kink info from? Like, where was that? Where were they learning stuff? Just, I guess, experience and each other, I guess,
Emerson Karsh
Basically, yeah, I kind of started realising that all of my peers, especially like, all my, like gal pals, were being choked, just like out of nowhere. Like, it was just a very common thing. And I was like, "Oh, no." Like, you should, there should be lots of education when it comes to choking. Because, you know, it's one of the more dangerous kink activities, and then I was like, "Okay, so everyone I know is being choked, but no one I know is getting the education on how to be choked properly." And that's what, you know, jump started that rabbit hole of like, "Okay, a lot more people in my life are kinkier than we think. And they're not accessing that education, because it's just not in mainstream sex education. And, you know, United States sex education is like, abysmal, if anything." So I was like, this makes a little bit more sense that there's not enough, you know, education and discussion and dialogue around it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the choking one is so interesting as well, because I feel like that has become so mainstream, and it's one that you hear is like, "Oh, well, everyone likes getting choked, or like choking." It's like, there's this, like, assumption that it's something that everybody is secretly into without any discussion there. Did you find like, with your peers who were experiencing getting choked, that it was something that they wanted to do? Or was there like a pressure there to, like - with the assumptions of like, "Oh, this is what you're supposed to do with sex, right?"
Emerson Karsh
I think there's a little bit of both, I think there were some of my peers that, you know, enjoyed being choked. And I had some peers that like didn't necessarily enjoy nor consent to it, but it just kind of happened. Like there was somebody in my community who was a male that was like - it was notorious that, like, if you started making out with him, like, his hand was going to be on your throat pretty much immediately. But that was just like, something that we like, accepted. And even in like -
Hannah Witton
It becomes something that you joke about.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
And then yeah, and when you think back to that, you're like, "What? How did we think that that was okay?"
Emerson Karsh
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, I, I can relate when I think back to kind of like, I don't know, the era of rape jokes, I guess. And being like, complicit in that as a woman as well. Like, when you just think about like, "I used to laugh at these jokes, and like, sometimes even make them like as a teenager and as a young adult." It's yeah. A bit scary.
Emerson Karsh
It is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I want to ask more about your your degree in human sexuality as well. Like, where did the interest to do that degree or like those - that course like, where did that come from initially? Like, was it something you were always interested in? Or something that - because I know that in the US, like, you can kind of figure out what you want to study like halfway through your degree as well. Whereas here, you have to, like, choose when you're like, 16/17 years old, like, "This is my subject."
Emerson Karsh
Yeah. So I went into college originally with a psychology degree and I still have that degree. But that was like, the path, was like I was going to be a therapist. I knew that when I was like - I took like a psychology half course in high school. And I was like, "I like psychology." It's an easy degree in in the sense that like, you can do a lot with it. And it can just soak into like lots of different subjects. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go to college, and get my psychology degree, and then we'll figure out from there." And I knew I wanted to be a therapist. And so when I was in college, I always had this like, desire to focus more on you know, sex therapy. I always thought it was really interesting that like, we as humans are, you know, designed to have sex. Most of us are human beings because of sex. And then, you know, a lot of humans have sexual desires and interests, but it's not talked about, you know, it's a part of literal human nature that people don't talk about. So I thought that was really interesting. And that can lead to a lot of, you know, shame and stigma, especially in the United States. So I was like, I wanna focus on that in therapy, like, I want to talk about sex. And then I have this mentor who was like, "Well, sex therapy is a thing. And we have a human sexuality, like, course." And I was like, "Oh, okay, great."
Hannah Witton
"Sign me up."
Emerson Karsh
Yeah. And I was really lucky that the university I had had a really amazing professor who had like a dual partnership in human sexuality and in psychology, and she was doing a lot of research in human sexuality. And she was taking on research assistants. So I was research assistant for, you know, her human sexuality studies, pretty much right off the bat. And she was like, "You can get a degree in this. It's not like the most popular degree here. But like, it's a degree that you can do." And so I would say, my second semester of freshman year is when I added on that degree, and I don't think I would have gotten there if I didn't have, you know, the resources and the mentors that I did. I mean, I was open in the fact that like I was interested in sex, but I was just like, "It would be interesting, maybe." And they'd be like, "Well, if you're interested in it, here you go." And then basically, yeah, made that yellow brick road for me.
Hannah Witton
Just paved out. Um, are you still interested in becoming a sex therapist?
Emerson Karsh
I am. I think so. I -
Hannah Witton
You don't have to do everything all at once. You know.
Emerson Karsh
I know. I like want to say yes, but right now, I'm just, you know, enjoying my post grad life and, you know -
Hannah Witton
You enjoy that.
Emerson Karsh
- working in this industry, so I think it's a dream, I just don't know if it's a dream that's happening right now,
Hannah Witton
That is totally valid. One thing I remember learning and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but like, one of the, like, most common routes into, like, becoming a therapist in the US is like a marriage and family therapist, like that's a type of therapist. But if you're training to become a marriage and family therapist, you don't learn about sexuality, which to me, if that's true, is just a gaping hole. Like, how are you supposed to address people's like marital issues if you've got no training in human sexuality? Anyway, that's a whole other thing.
Emerson Karsh
Totally. Yeah. I mean, I was looking at courses and there was like one class called sex therapy at the like marriage and family therapy bachelor's course that I was looking at. And yeah, it's like, a lot of people have to do a specialisation or get like AASECT certification for sex therapy, and it's just so many additional hours for these sex therapists when it's, yeah, marriage and family therapists should be trained in sex, you know, that should be like a large portion of the training, not just a one class portion.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess actually, for anybody listening who might be American and actually looking for a therapist, that might be something worth knowing about your therapist's training. And so, you know, if you are looking for a marriage and family therapist, then it might be worth asking if, you know, finding one that has that additional training, if sexuality is going to be something that you want to address, and talk about.
Emerson Karsh
Definitely.
Hannah Witton
Moving on slightly. So you like, I guess, in your specialty, you've like, specialised in being like a kink educator. And so I want to, like really dive into your, like, knowledge and interest around that. Like, for me, my interest in kink is entirely like intellectual and not personal. That's how I - I'm like, "It's all hypothetical." For you, like, where did that interest come from? Do like - are you personally a kinky person? Like, how did you like get into the kink community that way? And like, how did you like you said, like, marry all of your like interests together?
Emerson Karsh
Totally. Yeah. I've always been a kinky person and I do, like consider myself, you know, a kinky human. But I - I didn't know that kinks were not something that everyone didn't have. I remember being you know, 15 and 16, talking to my high school sweetheart about like, you know, some of the like, quote unquote, 'lighter kinks,' you know, like, wearing a blindfold or restraints, you know, I had those conversations when I was first starting having sex, because I just thought, you know, sex included those things. I grew up in the age of Tumblr, and you know, I was kind of on the cusp of 50 Shades of Grey. So I was seeing a lot of, you know, kink in the media, especially, you know, the media that I was consuming on my phone in terms of like, erotica, and, you know, the tiny little like porn clips that was on Tumblr back in the day.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God, yes, RIP.
Emerson Karsh
So I was like, "Yeah, this is totally normal. This is what everyone is into." And then I entered college, and I was like, "Oh." so um, I am definitely like an early bloomer, when it came to sex and I'm definitely a little freakier than a lot of people and that's fine.
Hannah Witton
"An early bloomer."
Emerson Karsh
And I, you know, I hit it - right off the bat, I was like, okay, I went into college. And I was like, "I want to do some of the freakiest things ever." And, obviously, I took my time doing those things. But I always thought college was a time to explore and have sex. And like, I took that as my opportunity to do so. ANd I think that comes from a lot of, you know, United States media, like when you go to college, it's the time to be a little crazy. And then I entered my first real like, Dom/sub relationship. And I realised, like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm doing." And it became like, rather unhealthy. And at that time, I was in a research study, doing like kink research, and we were talking a lot about consent in terms of the kink community. And that study, we got a lot of participants from FetLife. And I was like, "Oh, like, there's a whole-ass community out there with a lot of resources." And I started to realise that my dynamic was, like, super unhealthy. And, you know, I entered it without the right tools. And I was basically, like, if I entered this with all of the tools that I have, you know, literally studying this, like - and leaving, because I knew that that wasn't like, you know, the healthiest way to do a power dynamic. Like, if I as a person am studying this, like, how many people are just like doing this right off the bat.
And at that time, you know, I was really involved in sexual assault prevention and education and care at the time. So I was like - it's - like, I was getting frustrated at the fact that like, there were so - there was so much consent knowledge in the kink community but it wasn't being filtered out into, you know, the non kink community and how to get into the community, like the community has all this education, but if you're not in the community, you don't get this education. And like, if I didn't know about FetLife, like, I wouldn't know that there was a whole community online. So that's where the journey kind of went is, like, I always knew I was kinky, got into kinky things, got into kinky things the way wrong way. I was like, "Okay, if I got it in the wrong way, how many other people are doing this? How can I help them and then educate them?" And that's kind of where it all blossomed.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because I imagine there's lots of people who are like kinky in the bedrooms, but also just maybe don't have an interest in being part of like a wider community, but also they still need to be accessing that education. If you - if you don't mind sharing, because I think it will be useful for people, like what were some of the things about your unhealthy like Dom/sub dynamic that you then spotted? You were like, "Oh, hang on, this is - this is not a, like, a healthy dynamic?" And so like, what are maybe some of the things that people could look out for to be able to, like, recognise that in their own relationships or kink dynamics?
Emerson Karsh
Totally. Yeah, it was a lot of times in 24 hour power dynamics, or Dom/sub relationships, there's both a punishment and a reward system. And in my dynamic, there was no rewards, it was all punishment. So essentially, what would happen is he would be like, "You have to do X, Y, and Z. And if you don't do those things, then this is your punishment." And those punishments weren't agreed upon, and some of them were like straight up illegal.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Emerson Karsh
One, if I didn't do - if I didn't, you know, deep throat him like five times a week and if I didn't, you know, do this or that then like he would send - he basically like one of the punishments was like sending pictures to people that like I didn't want those pictures to be sent to so like a lot of like unconsensual, like, revenge porn as well as like, at the time I lived in like a shared community, like I wasn't in my own apartment and he was like, "If you don't do this, then like we're literally going to have like sex outside and like so everybody could see it." You know, those were like punishments I didn't want.
Hannah Witton
Okay. And in a healthy dynamic, is it a case that those punishments and rewards -hopefully there are rewards as well - are prenegotiated essentially?
Emerson Karsh
Yes. Yeah, very negotiated. A lot of 24 hour dynamics have, you know, like full on contracts like that are written out. But yes, always, always preconsented to the punishments. Because now that I've like done my journey, I do enjoy, you know, punishments as rewards, but I also like to be the one that's in charge of what those punishments are.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly.
Emerson Karsh
And I just wasn't.
Hannah Witton
That's why you're enjoying them.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Cuz you've like picked them, even if it is a punishment. One of the things that I actually wanted to talk to you about, because I think this might have been how I came across you, but you had some thoughts on How to Build a Sex Room, the Netflix show. And this is a show that I like, briefly spoke about in one of my YouTube videos as well. And I'm really interested in chatting with you about, like, some of the things that it did really well about like sex and kink, and then some of the things - and it's kind of connected to the whole consent conversation as well - some of the things that were kind of like red flags.
Emerson Karsh
I have lots of thoughts on that show. I think that they did really well in being - I think it was a super sex positive show, you know. The show basically was giving couples the space to reclaim their sexuality and their sex lives. Sometimes, in the -
Hannah Witton
And make it okay for it to be an important part of their lives.
Emerson Karsh
Exactly. Yeah, they were like, "It is okay to emphasise, you know, sex and like, you can do this by having a whole room, like nobody's telling you not." And I think for a lot of people that could be like revolutionary, you know. A lot of people, you know, myself included, because I live in a shared space, like, I have a box of my toys, you know, they're not out and about, like, if I want to have fun, like I have to take everything out. And that's not a bad thing. But you know, this show was giving couples like the room and the physical space to explore and emphasise her sexuality. And I thought that was like really profound and sex positive. I also think they did a really great job on like showing some pretty taboo kinks. They showed this person who, you know, had a piss kink, and they gave her a like drain in the room.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like the big shower room!
Emerson Karsh
Yeah. And I was like, that's amazing, that they like literally, like put a drain in this room. So that like, she can have as much, you know, watersports or pissplay as she wants. And that's not something we see. I've never seen it, you know, portrayed positively in the media, I've only seen it as like the butt of a joke. So I thought that was like really great. And they showed lots of different types of couples. It wasn't just, you know, like, we saw some, you know, straight white couples, but the majority of them like weren't so I thought that was like really interesting.
Hannah Witton
Onto the problems.
Emerson Karsh
Onto the problems. I think that there was a large emphasis on kink, when necessarily there didn't have to be. Um, there's this big, you know, feeling of like, the only way to spice up your sex life is kink. And there were definitely some couples that were like, "I don't want to do kink."
Hannah Witton
Yeah!
Emerson Karsh
And then they were like -
Hannah Witton
For some couples, it was like, "We want a romantic space."
Emerson Karsh
Exactly. And there's just one couple who like wanted a spa, and then when they were showing the spa, they included all these kink toys. And they were like, they didn't - they explicitly said they didn't want to have kink, or, you know, there was one of the participants was a black man who said he didn't want to have any handcuffs and then they showed metal handcuffs in his room, and I was like, "That is making his space uncomfortable and like, unconsensual. Like he can he told you that's not what he wanted, and then you gave it to him. Like, that's not making it a positive experience for him." They're also just giving all the couples metal handcuffs, which like, I don't necessarily recommend to beginners or to most people because they can cause a lot of nerve damage. And there's so many other restraint tools out there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I like - I like the velcro fabric ones.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, me too!
Hannah Witton
Those are mine.
Emerson Karsh
They're the same price as the metal ones and the metal ones like are known to cause nerve damage, and also metal handcuffs are historically linked to police officers, especially in the United States where we have a lot of, you know, harm that comes from the police for a lot of the communities that do engage in kink, so I was like that - it just there was a lot of parts of the show that just didn't feel intentional or they showed suspension on hardpoints. Or they showed a lot of times where the there wasn't like a ton of consent when it came to like the designer interacting with the contractor. So I thought there was like a lack of intentionality being shown when it came to kink. And they were more like sensationalising it versus educating on it.
Hannah Witton
What would be your advice then to folks who do want to, quote unquote, 'spice up their sex life' rather than just like introducing sex toys and kink? Kind of like, do you have any other like suggestions for folks?
Emerson Karsh
I would say the number one way, like, spice up your sex life is communication. You know, talk to your partner about what what they want?
Hannah Witton
The c word!
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, I mean, we all have fantasies, sometimes those fantasies are doable, sometimes not. And that's totally normal. Talk about those fantasies. Those fantasies may involve kink, they might not. But if you are interested in exploring, you can also like explore, you know, erotica together, or just independently and like, come together and be like, "This is really what I enjoyed of X, Y, and Z." And then talk about. It doesn't have to be, you know, whips and chains for it to be, you know, fun and sensual and intimate. It can be whatever you want it to be. But, you know, the main thing to do is to communicate and like, explore, you know. I think How to Build a Sex Room showed that there's a lot out there. And I always encourage - I think it was an entertaining show. And I think that it could - it inspired a lot of people. There were a lot of people in my comments that were like, "I was really inspired by the show." And I think that's great, I think watch these shows and porn with like media literacy and porn literacy, and then take what you want from it. And then use educational tools and go from there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. So much of it comes down to like the media literacy. Like you said. I wonder if the show - the inspiration from the show is actually like, "I want to be able to own a house that has enough rooms so that I can have a dedicated sex room." That's the inspirational part of it.
Emerson Karsh
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Just like... um, you've also, like, talked about degendering kink. And that's not like a phrase that I've come across before and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what that means.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, definitely. Um, I worked, I posted about degendering kink with an amazing trans kinkster. And we kind of talked about how kink can be gendered. Especially when it comes to the like expression of dominance and the expression of being submissive. A lot of dominance unfortunately interacts with toxic masculinity. So when I talk about degendering kink, I talk a lot about like, recognising how you view dominance and then redefining it so it doesn't include toxic masculinity. Same with being submissive, a lot of people view dominance, you know, as masculine, and submission as feminine. And both of those things can exist. But I always when we talk about degendering kink, it's like you can use submission as a way to enhance your femininity or in a way to like explore femininity, but you don't have to. You know, a lot of men are submissive, and a lot of different types of people are submissive or dominant, and just kind of reconstructing your idea of what those people look like. Even when it comes to like dominance equals pain and punishment, it doesn't have to. And I think a lot of that assumptions come from toxic masculinity, whereas being submissive has to mean, you know, being like, obedient or being, like I said, feminine is like the best way I could describe like, the what the - the parallel to submission. So recognising that your dominance doesn't have to be masculine, your femininity doesn't have to be - your submission doesn't have to be feminine and thinking about how you as a person want to engage in it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes so much sense because I guess it's like beyond just like dominance equals masculine and submission equals femininity, like beyond that actually, like - what am I trying to say here? I think like, a lot of kink is also like roleplay. And so when you're like playing a role, and that's, you know, it's, it's called like play as well. And so when your like cultural understanding of dominance is like a form of like masculinity, you might find yourself like performing some kind of masculinity even if you are a woman or non binary or whatever. Yeah, and just kind of like trying to get creative and like thinking outside of the box of like, what can dominance look like that isn't what we would like stereotypically associate with masculinity or with men. And like, yeah, how can you be dominant - like, how could you be dominant in a feminine way as well? Or like, or in all sorts of other ways? So now I now just like trying to have a think about how I would want to be dominant in a way that isn't just like me pretending to be a toxic man.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah. And there's, there's ways when it's like, you want to include gender in your kink, especially if you - like, the person I made the post with, Oliver, you know, is a trans man, and, you know, they talk about how like it can be a really great tool to use to experience gender euphoria, and how, you know, that feeling of dominance not equalling toxic masculinity, but you know, including some masculine traits can induce that euphoria.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, exactly. They call it like, kind of cherry picking of like, what is your, like, personal dominant style, or what is your personal like submissive style as well.
Emerson Karsh
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
So I also wanted to ask you about being Jewish, as a fellow Jew. And I wondered, like, do you feel like you received any messages around sex like from Judaism? I personally didn't but I wasn't raised like super, super Jewish, but I am always curious about other people's experiences of whether religiously or culturally, there was stuff, yeah, that you learned about sex and sexuality or your body through that?
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, definitely. I was really lucky that I grew up in a Reformed Jewish community. And so Reformed usually equals liberal or, you know, less of the Orthodox side.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Emerson Karsh
But just to define Reformed, Reformed Judaism is Judaism that takes the Torah in a way that is adapted to, you know, current society, whereas we view Orthodox as a community that usually views the Torah, as you know, like a rule. Like, I can't think of - as it's like -
Hannah Witton
Like quite literally?
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, so yeah, literally, yeah. Reformed Jews tend to not follow - they follow the Torah, but they use Torah ideology and values in a way that reflects current society. And so I was really lucky that I grew up in that sector of Judaism. And I also grew up in a pretty like liberal area in terms of the United States. And when I learned Torah, I remember very vividly that I was on this like retreat for confirmation, when I was like 14 or 15. And on that retreat, we talked all about, you know, sex and Judaism and Jewish values when it came to sex.
Hannah Witton
Ooh!
Emerson Karsh
And we read these Jewish poems that I think come from the Talmud. And the Jewish poem basically was a commandment. That was like - was commanding different types of men to please their wives. Like if you were somebody who worked on a boat - I think the poems are called Song of Solomon. If you were somebody who worked on a boat and you had to please your wife, X, Y, and Z times. If you are somebody who worked in town, you know, if you were a farmer, and you saw your wife weekly, then you have to please your wife weekly.
Hannah Witton
Oh!
Emerson Karsh
And I learned that it was a Jewish - not rule but it was okay in Judaism that divorce is, you know, valid if you as a wife are not being pleased by your husband. Is what I learned in Reformed Judaism confirmation. I also learned that the number one - that one of the golden rules in Judaism is that you have to take care of yourself. That you are the most important being and so if for some reason a pregnancy is going to impact your life, either physically, mentally, financially, any way, then you can terminate the pregnancy. That is of Jewish value. Abortion is not illegal in Jewish spaces. It becomes a little -
Hannah Witton
I didn't know that, wow.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah. So I grew up with the belief, and I think a lot of Jews grew up with the belief, that reproductive justice is a Jewish value. And so that's why the overturning of Roe was a little like upsetting for a lot of reasons, but because of, you know, the lack of religious freedom in the United States.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Emerson Karsh
But I was really lucky that I grew up in that community where it wasn't shamed. I really never got a consens- an answer on whether sex before marriage was allowed. It was not like, it was never drilled into me that sex before marriage was bad. It wasn't drilled into me that like you should have sex before marriage. I had, you know, one boyfriend growing up who was like, "I think Jewish - I think sex before marriage is like not a good thing in Judaism." But it was never something that like I was told that if I was going to have sex before marriage that I was going to rot in hell, you know, because Hell's not even in concept in Judaism.
Hannah Witton
It's not a thing, is it? No.
Emerson Karsh
No. Not a thing.
Hannah Witton
Not a thing.
Emerson Karsh
And the idea of like sinning is not necessarily a thing.
Hannah Witton
No, you just - you just fast one day a year and all is forgiven.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, and then you repent and you like apologise, but yeah.
Hannah Witton
"I'm real sorry!" "That's all right!"
Emerson Karsh
You're not going to hell.
Hannah Witton
No.
Emerson Karsh
So I think that's really liberating in the fact that like, I didn't have to unlearn all this shame. I didn't have to unlearn this idea that if I did something pleasurable that I was going to burn.
Hannah Witton
That's a - yeah, that's a pretty low bar. But good. I'm curious as well, like, how do you feel about disclosing that you're Jewish in like kink spaces, because I know that like race play is a thing. But is there the equivalent for being Jewish? And like, I mean, there's a kink for everything, so.
Emerson Karsh
There's a kink for everything. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So I'm sure there is but like, like, What's your relationship with that? Have you ever experienced like antisemitism in in kink spaces? Yeah. What's that been like?
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, raceplay's a thing. And one type of play in raceplay is role playing Nazi Germany. Nazi and Jews.
Hannah Witton
Of course it is.
Emerson Karsh
It's definitely something people do and it's only something like I've heard of, it's not necessarily something I've like seen in my own community. But in Nazi Germany, Judaism was seen as a race. And so obviously, throughout time with, you know, the new definitions of race, Jews are now an ethnicity, but when you're role playing Nazi Germany, it's usually under the raceplay umbrella. And so that's definitely like a thing. It's not something that like I would engage in. Raceplay itself is like a very complicated issue. I never not disclose that I'm Jewish, but it's not something that I feel I need to tell everybody. I mean, it's on my profile, I wear a Jewish necklace. It usually comes up into conversation that I'm Jewish, so I have not experienced any antisemitism within the community. I've experienced antisemitism throughout my whole life, but I wouldn't say it was necessarily in the kink community. And I would say that if you are somebody who is, you know, engaging in Nazi Germany raceplay, to like, recognise the atrocity of what the Holocaust was, but it's not something that I necessarily like talk about or see or know how to navigate because it's such a complicated - the Holocaust is just a complicated issue.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely. And then - and then when you bring in like, human sexuality, which is also so complicated, as well, but yeah, when I've like talked to other people about raceplay and like learned stuff about it as well it, yeah, it does seem to be quite a kind of a difficult one for people and rightly so. I think it does like give that immediate like, "Ooh." Like there's I think there's like some kinks that people are like, "Oh, yeah, those are like mainstream acceptable kinks, like, we can kind of get on board with those." And then there's like a whole other - I mean there's like a spectrum of kink and a lot of the time raceplay - and then especially when you hear like, "Oh, Nazi Germany, kind of like kink play," that immediately kind of for a lot of people, kinky or not, would be like - oh, I don't know If it hasn't official word, or if I just use the word ick, like, yeah, because there's the whole like "your kink is your kink and your kink is okay." Or something. Or -
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, a lot of the community uses like, don't yuck your yum - don't yuck my yum.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then one that I like to use is like don't yuck my yuck. So like not to shame other people for the things that they don't like, as well.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
There's a lot there.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, and I think that, you know, a lot of people have lots of different opinions on raceplay and to, you know, I would - not knowing them, I would say like a lot of them are valid. And I have done - I have some posts on my page with the amazing like Life with Flo, who, you know, is like a Black kink educator, and we have posts that talk about, you know, like, how to avoid racist roleplay. And just, if anyone is interested, you know, in race play, there's a lot of amazing resources out there. Just to like - that goes into the depth because that in itself is like a whole conversation with a lot of more nuance than I think I could even cover.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, fair enough. So we have some questions from folks on Instagram and also some of our patrons. Somebody has asked: how do I let go of the shame I feel after engaging in kink?
Emerson Karsh
Yeah, that's a great question. One of those tools is, is aftercare. I know, for some, that might feel like a silly response. But during kink play, a lot of our emotions are - during kink play, like, we have a lot of chemicals. And one of those chemicals is adrenaline. And when we get an adrenaline drop, we tend to get those yucky feelings. And one of the best ways to combat those yucky feelings that we often associate with shame is through aftercare. And you know, that aftercare can be right after the scene, days after even the week after and that can just be things like cuddling, drinking water, talking about it, but also just trying to recognise like, where that shame is coming from. Shame to me is is almost like jealousy to the polyamorous community, you know. Shame is an indicator of something else. Are you feeling shame because you are scared of what other people are thinking? Are you feeling shame because you are sad about something? What is indicating this shame? And then go from there. I think that breaking it down can be really helpful. And I think that knowing that like, that's normal, and very valid. Unfortunately, our brains like to play tricks on us after we give it a lots of boosts of chemicals like adrenaline and endorphins, and knowing that shame is unfortunately something that most kinksters, including myself have dealt with. But breaking it down, one of the main ways that I would say that is like a real physical tool when dealing with shame, and kink is try to break it up a little bit, like do bite sized pieces of the play instead of like the whole scene.
Hannah Witton
Oh okay.
Emerson Karsh
So maybe you're really interested in eventually going to an orgy, that's great. But how are ways to get to, you know, the group play interests that are baby steps instead of like diving headfirst, and that will help, you know, your body and yourself get used to this kink? You know, get excited about it, and you know, kind of reject that shame overall is the little bits of pieces instead of like going right in, because sometimes it can just be a shock to our system.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And kind of like managing your exposure to things and like slowly eroding away.
Emerson Karsh
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Because like the more normalised something becomes to you, ideally then the less shame that you feel about it, because it just becomes your normal.
Emerson Karsh
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
I love that advice. Thank you. Somebody has asked: what's the best way to introduce rare slash unusual kinks in conversation with a partner, ie outside of your classic BDSM kinks? The classics. Outside of the classics?
Emerson Karsh
The classics. That's a great question. My main like rulebook for introducing kink to any of your partners, even if you know it's what we would consider "normal" or "taboo", quote unquote for both those, is introduce it in like a non sexual settings so so that there's no- non sexual or non kink setting - so there's no pressure for that person to say, "Okay, yes," or like "Okay, no." So give them you know, the space and the time to hear what that kink is. I always think like, it's best if you as the person with like the - I don't think any kinks are unusual, but like the quote unquote, you know, "unusual" kink is give them resources, you know, like, tell them like, you know - it's - tell yourself and tell them like, you know, "Lots of people do this and there are so many articles and so many different things." You know, find one or two articles, maybe a YouTube video, print it out, send it to them, be like, "Here is education and somebody else describing it." And then from there, you can talk about like, what your interest is. I would say like, a good example to use is like pissplay, there's a lot of different ways we can engage in pissplay. But once you hear it right off the bat, people get their own images. Like me saying it and you guys hearing it can elicit lots of different images. And so break that down, you know, explain to your partner -
Hannah Witton
Be specific.
Emerson Karsh
Exactly, like, "I like piss play because I like the the warm sensation. I like piss play, because I like the humiliation." You know, talk about it, go from there, see if, you know, maybe kind of like we were talking about the shame, like there's ways to work up to it that your partner will be comfortable with.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's true. Because like, it being a sensory experience is so different to it being like a humiliation experience. Like those, like when you get into why you're into something and like what you want to feel, then two completely different scenes emerge.
Emerson Karsh
Yeah. Explain your why is great. And then listen to your partner. If your partner is giving you an indication that they're not into it, sometimes you just have to respect that. There's ways to you know, navigate that as well. Listen to your partner's like hesitation, their questions, but I would say like, come prepared, be the expert for yourself and your interest, and be the expert in that kink so that they know as much as they can.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's great. Somebody has asked - I'm curious what your response to this is - what makes something a kink? Like is anything you find particularly sexy a kink? Obviously we're just defining kink right at the end of this episode all about kink?
Emerson Karsh
Um, yeah. So, a kink is really seen as like anything that you enjoy, like sexual, non sexual, intimate, sensual that is seen outside of the norm. So the short answer is like, yes, anything can be a kink. The long answer is that like, a lot of it comes from your environment and what society you live in and like what's normalised in that society. Like, there can be, you know, kinks that are normalised, you know, in one part of the country that are stigmatised in the other. So it's kind of the broad answer is like, yes, anything can be a kink. The short answer is like, whatever is seen outside of the norm, and we get those indicators of what is outside of the norm by our surroundings.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, cuz it's like, yes, non normative. And then then you have to be like, "Well, what's your normal?"
Emerson Karsh
Kink falls into like the world of like alternative sexuality. So like, what would you define as alternative? Is like another great question when you're considering like, what is a kink?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because like, how, like, yeah, like you said, like, depending on where you are, as well, because like, for a lot of people, incorrectly so, they would be like, ""Well, anything outside of like a cis heterosexual monogamous like, married relationship is alternative."
Emerson Karsh
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
,So yeah, you know, if you're feeling kinky, you're kinky. There you go.
Emerson Karsh
That's what I think, you know, if you have interests, that's great. If you want to consider them kinks, that's great too. You don't have to define it, if you don't want to, as long as you're doing it in a way that's like safe and consensual.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And speaking of which, where can people find your work and your stuff if they want to get educated about kink?
Emerson Karsh
Yeah. The main place to find me is Instagram. My Instagram account is @thekinkeducator. And from there I have a link to, you know, lots of different articles and resources. You can also email me, which is at thekinkeducator@gmail.com. It's also like on my bio. I consider Instagram like my hub. So if you want to reach me, that's the best way to do it. I have a Twitter that I'm not very good at using but I have it. That's also linked on my Instagram. But yeah, I'd say Instagram is the hub. If you want to message me, go for it. I usually say like as a human, Instagram's kind of like my business, so like, as a business owner, like if you want to, like I'll always respond, just it might take like three to five days, which is usually what I say. But I try to respond to everybody. My DMs are always open.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. It's been so great chatting with you. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye..