Reproductive Justice, Politics of Poverty & Gen Z Social Activism with Deja Foxx | Transcript
CW: abortion, miscarriage and homelessness
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton, I am so happy to be back for the new season of Doing It and I am super excited to share with you my first guest: the incredibly impressive Deja Foxx.
Deja is a 21 year old reproductive rights activist, political strategist and blogger known for being the youngest staffer and first influencer and surrogate strategist on US Vice President Kamala Harris's presidential campaign. She is one of the most important voices in abortion activism, and is known for her work with Planned Parenthood, her fearlessness in speaking up, and also being the founder of GenZ Girl Gang, a social action community for women and femmes, all of which she does all while studying as an undergrad at Columbia University. I told you she was impressive.
I really wanted to get Deja on the podcast to get her expert insight into the current state of reproductive justice in the United States. And her firsthand perspective on how the overturning of Roe v Wade will disproportionately impact folks of colour and poor people. We spoke all about legality and access when it comes to abortion, and what the recent changes in law actually mean for people who need abortions in the US today. Deja shared really interesting insights into why we aren't actually going back in time, and why abortions will still be available to people today because of the development in science since the 1970s. Deja spoke a lot about being an activist, how to face discomfort in your activism whilst also staying safe, and the importance of receiving proper safety and impact training. She talked boldly about why and when breaking laws are necessary, and how important community is in creating access. We chatted about her creating the GenZ Girl Gang community, the importance of helping fellow young people of colour reach professional success, and why teen girls are experts at turning social media into an opportunity for impact. Lastly, Deja spoke all about what she plans to do when she becomes the President of the United States. And for all our sake I sure do hope that happens. I loved this conversation and hearing how assured Deja is and how determined she is within her work and her role in politics. It gives me more hope for the state of our future leaders and their impact on our human rights.
Please note we mention abortion, miscarriage, and homelessness in this episode. So please do look after yourself before listening if these things could affect you.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram @doingitpodcast. If you like this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really appreciated. And without further ado, here is my chat with Deja Fox.
Deja, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for being here. I'm really excited to talk to you.
Deja Foxx
Thank you for having me, I'm happy to be here.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, your work is just amazing in the space of like reproductive rights and abortion rights, and I think like a good place to start as someone who is so active in that space in the US, with everything that's been happening recently, could you give us a little overview, I guess, of the situation?
Deja Foxx
Yeah, I mean, I think maybe most powerfully, is just a bit of a personal anecdote from - I was 15 years old. I'm 22 now. And it is a really hard thing to say. But we are in so many ways further behind in this moment than when I started. And that is in large part because of the recent Supreme Court decision, which overturned Roe vs. Wade here in the United States, ending the constitutional right to abortion. And now - a really important line to draw is that there's a huge difference, and has been in the US for years, between legality and access. And so abortion was legal in the US, right - given the Supreme Court decision, Roe vs. Wade, up until just very recently, it was legal in all 50 states, right? That did not mean that women in all 50 states of the US had access. Trap laws, regulations in places like Texas disproportionately affected women, women of colour, low income folks, making it so that they didn't have access to begin with. And so we have lived in sort of a, quote unquote, "post Roe world", world without abortion. There were folks already living in that reality here in the US prior to this decision. So really important to note that. However, we are seeing the sort of transition now into, you know, it's kind of been tossed up to the states. And so people are really turning to their local governments, their state governments, to fight for that access and that legality.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think that distinction, that is so important, as well, because people in the UK also forget that because we have the legal right to abortion, but as you said, like access, like depending on where you live, and your, like, income level, and all of those kinds of things - like are you somebody who's like working lots of jobs, and so you don't have time to, like, go get an abortion, like there's so many other barriers, even if it is legal.
Deja Foxx
Transportation, childcare, costs, yeah, all of these things. Also important to note that in the US, insurance works very differently. And it can be very fraught in terms of the way that that interacts with reproductive care, especially abortion. So it's also worth noting that a lot of these places, you know, or a lot of employers are protecting the right to abortion in this moment. So another place people are fighting is not only their state level and their local level, but also with their employers to make sure that they are covering the cost of going out of state, right, and things like that. And so, you know, it is definitely convoluted and complicated. And I think that in every way it is meant to be, right? That that is the strategy of anti abortion legislators and groups is to make this as hard as possible and as confusing to understand.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So how did you get started in this whole space? Because you mentioned that you were 15? Like, what happened?
Deja Foxx
Right, so I was born and raised in Tucson, Arizona, I'm a first generation American, meaning that I'm a child of an immigrant. I was raised by a single mom, I grew up below the poverty line. So I grew up in government housing, receiving sort of like government food assistance, right? And I always knew what it felt like to have the government deciding - elected officials making decisions about the resources that I needed to just survive, right? So politics was never new to me. I didn't have to learn about politics in school, I learned about politics, living my daily life. And by the time I was 15, I moved out of my mom's house because of issues of substance abuse and mental health. It just wasn't a safe environment for me, and I experience what one in 30 teens in the US do and that's called hidden homelessness. It means not having a home of your own, it could be bouncing around between friends houses, that sort of thing.
Hannah Witton
One in thirty is so many.
Deja Foxx
One in thirty, right? And thinking about class sizes, right? That's about one person in every class. And that's not to say that it's distributed evenly, because it is not, right? There are definitely some classrooms where it is more heavily concentrated. But when we really think about that visual, it's pretty striking. And once again, I think learning that made me see that I really wasn't alone in that experience, even though I carried so much shame around and, you know, I sort of my situation was that I lived with my boyfriend at the time and his family. And it was through that lens that sitting in my sex education class, my health class and the sex education like piece of it, rather, which was taught by the baseball coach.
Hannah Witton
Oh fun. How Mean Girls.
Deja Foxx
I hate to see it, literally, hate to see it. And, you know, he was going through this PowerPoint on contraceptives, and kind of just breezing through it. And he made this comment which stuck with me that "I don't really have to teach you guys this, your parents will."
Hannah Witton
Ooh.
Deja Foxx
Yeah, right. Obviously, I'm sitting there as someone who doesn't have parents at home to fill in these gaps, receiving a curriculum which was last updated mid-80s,, which was not medically accurate and didn't even mention the word consent. And I was like, no one is gonna fill in these gaps for me. And so I started really getting active in that moment. And I started going to school board meetings, and telling my story, and really opening up about this experience of homelessness and the ways that my school and my school district were letting me down and letting students like me, those one in 30, down, by not having a medically accurate comprehensive sex education curriculum. And that it disadvantaged students like me, right? That we were the ones who were bearing the brunt of their inaction. And after six months of organising showing up time and time again, and some pretty heated encounters with antis. One, we won a legislative victory. And the school district, the largest school district, in my - in southern Arizona, high school district, voted to amend our sex education curriculum for the next year and a half. I sat on an advisory board helping to rewrite it.
Hannah Witton
That's incredible. What was that like?
Deja Foxx
The experience of campaigning for it? Or the experience of rewriting the curriculum?
Hannah Witton
I mean, I guess all of it because like to me in my head, I would assume that like the the rewriting it would be like, really fun.
Deja Foxx
No.
Hannah Witton
No? Oh no!
Deja Foxx
It was not. It was full of bureaucracy?
Hannah Witton
I should have known!
Deja Foxx
Yeah, it was one of those things thrown into committee. Every school board member got to pick advisors. And so there were some really conservative ones. It was actually this really bizarre experience of meeting up like once a week, I think it was on like, Tuesdays in this like unused classroom with a bunch of folks who some of whom really shared my views, right? Because they are appointed by school board members that agreed with us. And then some of whom who really did not, were trying to pull it the other way, distract from the process, right? Delay, because that is also the tactic of the right, is to delay and distract, because they win when there's inaction. They win when we throw things into bureaucracy, and it dies in committee, right? Like, they are the ones who win when we do nothing. And so they don't even have to fight in the same way that I did, or my peers did, to get something on the measure, to get it to pass, because in fact, the status quo already benefits them. And so that is the uphill battle we fight. However, I will say that they are fighting an uphill battle because they are fighting science. They're fighting the popular opinion, right? Public opinion.
Hannah Witton
True.
Deja Foxx
And they're on the wrong side of history. They're fighting an uphill battle against progress and where we're headed. So all that to say that I know we're on the right side, and even when that work got hard, or you know, tedious, I always hold that to be true that at least I know I'm on the right side of history.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. So you've been basically doing this and all a lot of campaigning work since you were 15. And then when you were 16, there was that video of you that kind of blew up everywhere of you in that town hall meeting. And so you've kind of become this face of like sexual rights and reproductive rights. Are you tired?
Deja Foxx
I'm exhausted. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Is there a part of you that's like, I don't want to be the abortion rights person? And what else are you interested in? I guess.
Deja Foxx
Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important to go back to that moment, that that moment against my senator Jeff Flake when I was 16, right. And note that I had been trained to be that person.That I had gone to training -
Hannah Witton
You seemed very composed, like you were not fazed. Yeah.
Deja Foxx
This was not my first time I had been outside his office, he'd been avoiding us. I'd gone to town halls before with Congress people, right. I'd told my story time and time again, to the school board members, sort of the lowest level of government. And I prepared myself. And there was there was organisations and people in my corner, right. Planned Parenthood sent me to trainings to learn how to tell my story, to learn about media, and how we use it to learn about tactics of bird-dogging.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wait, that's a new term to me. What is that?
Deja Foxx
Bird-dogging? Yeah, so that's an organising tactic. It's exactly what you saw in that video. You kind of try to catch elected officials saying things or you know, you try to catch them off guard, you kind of try to rile them up.
Hannah Witton
It's that kind of like when you twisted what he said about the American dream, and you were like, "Well, what about my American dream?"
Deja Foxx
It is like that, yeah. It's about showing up, finding your your elected official and putting the question to them, right? Sometimes it can even be like asking - like, I don't know if this is really everyone's cup of tea, but like asking to take a picture and then pulling out a sign. Yeah, just putting your your electeds on the spot. But that is a googleable term that I encourage everyone to go look into after this and get on the organising curriculum spiral.
Hannah Witton
Love that.
Deja Foxx
But yeah, all this to say that I want people to know that though that moment looks so - I mean, sporadic, organic, like it was luck, that there were people in the background, me included, who had been doing the work yeah. Right? To make sure that I was prepped and ready, because that moment - though it was uncomfortable, right? Waking up the next morning and millions of people having heard my story, me asking my senator why he would deny me the American dream after he had voted to deny funding to low income people for birth control access, right? That it would have not only been uncomfortable, it would have been unsafe for me to have been in that position if I hadn't had the training and the practice prior. Right? And so what I always remind people who choose use storytelling in their activism is to share what is uncomfortable but not unsafe, and to know that that will grow and expand and sometimes contract over time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oof.
Deja Foxx
That your story is yours and yours alone, and you get to use it how you want. And in my life, I have chosen to use my story in the service of reproductive justice, right. And to answer your question about if there was ever moments where I didn't want to be at the front, the answer is yes. Unequivocally, yes. I didn't choose politics, politics chose me. You know, like I said, I grew up in a political - in an inherently political space, as a low income woman of colour. And that viral moment, once again, was not something I recorded, it was not something I posted. And I think that my feelings about my position now, especially since the overturn of Roe, are really that of resentment. I've been working through a lot of grief. I've been grieving the teenage years, the college years that I've poured into this work. I've grieved the private life I could have lived if I didn't live under a microscope and have to live up to respectability politics, right. I've grieved the progress I had made and that we had made. I've grieved for the folks who have lost access who have lost the legal right, myself included, right, I'm only 22. And so there's been a lot of grieving to be done. And some resentment.
Hannah Witton
Rightly so.
Deja Foxx
And yeah, yeah. I think my real call to action there is that there are people like me who have been doing this work, right. Even if you're new to me, I'm not new to this. And there are a lot of people who are just now getting galvanised who are just now, you know, getting into this fight. And to them, I say, I'm glad you're here. Get out of my comment section telling me what to do, what I should be doing in this moment. And listen up. Because what you need to do is you need to show up while I grieve, because I've been doing this work.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Need to like take it in turns so that you can rest.
Deja Foxx
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Let other people take over for a while.
Deja Foxx
It's a lot like a relay race.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because, you know, we're not all going to be capable of like, like you said, like being the one under the microscope, the one that is like really like the face of it, the one that people recognise who might be also, like you said, like putting themselves at risk somewhat, like you can't expect, like the people who are activists in that space to be doing that constantly.
Deja Foxx
Yeah. And, you know, I think each and every one of us has our own talents and gifts to offer to whatever space we're in. And I know what mine are, right? I'm a talented content creator. I'm a gifted speaker. And I've been able to occupy this role because of my talents and gifts. But I also recognise that that's not where everyone fits in. And I think a lot of people think that to be an activist, you have to be doing what I'm doing, right? You have to be on the streets, you have to be in the videos, you have to be on the news. When in fact, each and every one of us can be an activist from exactly where we are, and we need everyone. We need your unique skills, right? If you're a photographer, get out there and photograph. If you're a talented content creator, help your local nonprofit, you know, get their Instagram presence together, right? If you're an amazing writer, write an op ed. You know, there's so many different ways to be active, even if that's just fighting in your workplace or your small town. And we need each and every one of us and our skills. So know that you don't have to contort or push yourself to be something you're not to make a difference.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And of course what you were saying like that grieving is so valid. And, you know, I think the overturning of Roe v. Wade caused a lot of people in the US, but also like in the UK and in other countries, like a lot of shock, trauma, like, a lot of pain. But what like after we kind of like have this collective grieving, what is next? Like what is kind of being done?
Deja Foxx
Yeah, I think it's really important to note that there's a lot of this kind of like "we won't go back" or like, you know, we're in - "this is like pre-Roe America." And I think it's important to acknowledge that we are in a different place now than we were before Roe. In the sense that we have medication abortion, we have abortion pills, and that is a huge difference in terms of safety. And so, to me, the future is about thinking beyond legality, and focusing on access, even if that means extra legal access, in a lot of ways.
Hannah Witton
What do you mean by extra legal?
Deja Foxx
I think that means outside of legality.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Deja Foxx
Outside of what is maybe legal.
Hannah Witton
Extra legal, I like that.
Deja Foxx
Because we know that when laws are injust, they're, they're not laws at all, right? And that when people deny the right to abortion, deny access to abortion, people will die.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Deja Foxx
And that is very serious, right? This is serious. And not only that, but you know, even in the case where it's someone's bodily autonomy that's being denied. That is - that is wholly wrong. Right? And so we know that these laws are wrong, and we will create access regardless of legality. And the future of that looks like community based organising. It means being a self-managed abortion buddy. It means knowing where to get abortion pills or storing them because they have a pretty long shelf life.
Hannah Witton
Oh, good to know!
Deja Foxx
Yeah, you can also order them - you can - rather one could order them. The legal situation here is fraught. But one could order them via the mail often or from other countries or other states or mail forwarding programmes. One of my favourite organisations really doing this work around medication abortion, self managed abortion, is Plan C. Okay, they have some really great resources and I hope everyone goes over there after this as some more homework. They're going to look up bird-dogging, they're gonna go and find Plan C.
Hannah Witton
Give us the homework, love it.
Deja Foxx
But yeah, the future is community based. The future is access over legality. But the future is also - and this is probably the scariest part - policing.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Deja Foxx
That the people who are enforcing these bans and criminalising - or rather enforcing the criminalization of abortion - are police. And so now we have to say, I see this fight, I see this abortion fight, as tied to abolition and police reform, right? That defunding the police, abolishing the police, is in every way tied to this reproductive justice movement. And so I know a lot of people were outside in 2020 around racial justice and fighting against police brutality and policing. And I need everyone to use their their nuanced brain and see the connection here. That that fight is this fight. That abolition is our fight. And that it has never been clearer, the ways that abortion, reproductive justice, racial justice are one in the same.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the policing thing makes me think of like some stuff that I've seen people saying online about the use of like period tracking apps.
Deja Foxx
Period trackers. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. what kind of have you heard about that? And what what would be your advice to people who are using them and if they like if - even if like they miscarry as well, like things like that? Could - you know -
Deja Foxx
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of myths and disinformation out there meant to scare you. And I would say that specifically around period trackers and digital safety - digital safety is huge, right. And tt doesn't just stop at period trackers. It's also things like Facebook Messenger, or the location on your phone. Right?
Hannah Witton
Ooh, yeah.
Deja Foxx
All of these things which we've never had to think about in relation - and should not have to think about - in relationship to our medical decisions. Our health, right? We do now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Deja Foxx
And so I am not the best resource. And I think it's really important to note that these laws are changing day by day.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And state by state as well.
Deja Foxx
And state by state, exactly. And so if you want more information on how to keep yourself safe digitally, and safe period, If When How is my go to resource for everything reproductive justice law.
Hannah Witton
Okay, great.
Deja Foxx
So that's where I would head, that's where I would turn to get the most updated information, no matter where you are listening to this, or what day, what year it is.
Hannah Witton
So you talked about, like, the intersections between like racial justice and reproductive justice. And we talked a little bit before about, like poverty, and - like, how - can you kind of, for people who are like, how are these things connected? Like when it comes to politics? How are things like poverty, and racial justice, reproductive justice, like, all of these different things? What is going on with them when it comes to politics? And, yeah, what's going on there?
Deja Foxx
Sure. I mean, I think we have to shout out the Black women who have been creating the frameworks that blend these things together, right? Whether it's the term intersectionality - created by a Black woman - that defines, you know, gender as intersecting with race to create a specific kind of oppression, right? That that word intersectionality comes to mind for me as we think about those connections. That for me even the term reproductive justice is a framework that was created by Black women to say that this fight is not just about abortion, or if and when to have children, but it is about being able to raise the children we do have in safe and free communities, right. Communities that are not - that are free from police brutality, that are free from family separation, that are free from the threat of climate change, right?
Hannah Witton
Yes!
Deja Foxx
That Black women have created the framework that tells us that these things are connected.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, climate justice, there you go, it's just like all really interconnected.
Deja Foxx
It's all interconnected, it's intersectional. And it is Black women who have been leading that thought. And so as we look forward, and as we we continue to use that language, we really have to shout out that it comes from Black women who've been doing this work. And, you know, I think we can even, you know, outside of just the framework and the theories, we can see it in people's everyday lives, right? If you go and listen to abortion storytellers, or scroll through Shout My Abortion, right, you're gonna find these incredible stories of people, real people, for whom their race and their class and their gender and their sexuality all come together to create their story, their abortion story, because that is the kind of life we live, right. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
No, exactly. And when it comes to politics, like you've been hugely involved, you were on Kamala Harris's campaign.
Deja Foxx
Yeah, that's right.
Hannah Witton
What's next? Are you gonna be president someday? Like, what's the plan?
Deja Foxx
Yeah. As you mentioned, I was on I was on Kamala Harris's campaign. I was 19 years old. I worked as the Influencer and Surrogate Strategist. So I got to work on her digital team out of the headquarters. I was, at 19, not only the youngest on on my campaign, but the youngest at my level of leadership across any of the campaigns and one of the youngest in modern history. And I tell people often that I not only want to be president but I plan to be and I think when we look at my track record, and we put it against some of our past presidents, most notably our most, our most recent former president, Donald Trump, I have to ask the question, why not me? You know, I think that's the question a lot of us have been asking the last few years. Why not me? Right. When we see people in the highest position of leadership, when we see men like him - if you're not asking the question "why not me?" you should be because he was grossly unqualified. So.
Hannah Witton
What would we expect from from your campaign or your leadership? Like what kind of are the - other than obviously, like, reproductive justice, racial justice, economic justice? I mean, there's such huge ones. But like, what, what other things would you be super passionate about, like, putting on the agenda?
Deja Foxx
Yeah. I mean, I think it's so hard to pull out reproductive justice or racial justice. Because like I said, people lead these lives where their race and their gender never disappear, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's like education, housing. Yeah. All of the things.
Deja Foxx
Like I said, I grew up below the poverty line. I know just how important stable housing and food are, right. I think an issue that I don't get to talk all that much about but I am incredibly passionate about is housing justice, right. That everyone should have access to safe housing, and that we have unhoused neighbours all over. You know, I'm looking at my hometown right now. Specifically, the neighbourhood my mom lives in. And watching politicians, local politicians, local news package this camp sweep where homeless folks live, unhoused folks live - and have lived for a very long time in this single park - as a park renovation, right. That they have millions of dollars to pour into updating this park, but not to finding -
Hannah Witton
Building houses.
Deja Foxx
- finding people secure housing. That - they're pushing people out in the middle of summer in Arizona, where it gets up to like 116 degrees, by turning off the water.
Hannah Witton
Wow. Yeah. I don't know the exact numbers, but don't they say that, like, the actual cost of homelessness is more than what it would cost to solve it? Or house everyone?
Deja Foxx
Yeah, I mean, I don't have those numbers off the top. But I can tell you that that feels true. And that housing, sustainable housing, preventative alternatives are a lot more cost effective than things like incarceration. And then not only are they more cost effective, but they're better for our economy when we get people engaged, right? They're better for our neighbourhoods for our communities. And so, you know, the - I think less so than policy initiatives, because if 2020 in this pandemic taught me anything, it was that I don't like to make predictions about where the world is headed.
Deja Foxx
But you know, the vision I have for the world is one that is defined by choice. And I do mean like real choices. Not only the choice to have children are not, but the choice to go on to college, if that's what you want to do, or the choice to not. The choice of housing and of healthy foods, right? Because we know that when you have no good options, there is no choice. And I believe that choices are what help us create communities that reach their full potential. And so I think the America that I would like to live in is one that is defined by choice. Where everyone feels that they have a choice.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, that, that makes a lot of sense. And so you were talking before about, like, using your skills and talents in, you know, in the areas and having like, the most impact and one of the things that you've done, like as a content creator and as somebody who knows social media, is create this GenZ girl gang. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about what that is? And like why you started it?
Deja Foxx
Yeah, GenZ Girl Gang is kind of like my heart project. Like it's something that I love, something I do with my friends. I never expected it to get as big as it is now. In some ways. I started GenZ Girl Gang and my freshman year of college out of my dorm, kind of just from this experience of moving from Tucson, Arizona, to New York City where I didn't know anyone. And where I had to really redefine what community meant to me. Because community to me, it always meant people that lived around me. But when I got to Columbia I looked around and the people who lived down the hall, right, that I was eating with at the dining halls, didn't share my experiences. For the most part, right. I was experiencing for the very first time a level of wealth I didn't even know existed before then. And it was jarring. It was unsettling. It was difficult. I'm the first in my family to go to college, right. And Colombia was a very unique experience in that sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Deja Foxx
And when I looked around and asked myself, okay, then who is my community? The answer was, in large part, young women, femmes, non binary folks that I was connecting with online, right? Those people I was like swiping up on their Instagram stories, and they were swiping up on mine, or that we'd met out at an event and then we kept in touch. And I realised that that wasn't just true for me but that was true for so many of these young women and non binary folks, that we were creating these personal networks online, that were creating not only professional success for us, right, where we were sending each other opportunities - like, there's this great internship or, like, this stylist is looking for an assistant or I have this job opening - that we're creating professional success for one another, while also creating personal wellbeing, because we were also asking like, "Hey, are you okay? Can I send you $10 to go grab breakfast this morning? How's finals going?" And that there's actually something really revolutionary about that act, and also something very strategic about it. Right? Social media hasn't existed very long in the scope of things.
Hannah Witton
No.
Deja Foxx
and that young woman, femmes, non binary folks are at - I think, get denied - like they we deserve our flowers, because we are creating the strategies, right? That turned social media from a for profit entity that just like sucks our attention for dollars into a community building tool. Right? That we're doing that work. It was never designed to do that, but that we are making it work. And that in so many ways that means the teen girls are like the experts in TikTok, right?
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah.
Deja Foxx
The like 20 year old college students are really like at the forefront of digital community building, even though we can't necessarily always articulate that, that we are the experts in this space. And GenZ Girl Gang was born out of that idea that we could create a culture of collaboration and that we already were, and that we could learn from and teach each other, that we could share opportunities. And that we were already building the strategies to make social media a community building tool, and to explore the ways it can be used in that way. And I want to note that we were doing this work in 2018, 2019. Right? And this was before the pandemic hit. And then once everything shut down, everyone was looking for community online, and who did they look to? They looked to communities like ours, who'd been doing that work, who had the foresight to say that digital community is real, is tangible, and it is affecting the lives of young people particularly every day. And so then when the world shut down, and every campaign and PAC and nonprofit and brand was trying to figure out how to do it -
Hannah Witton
Was like, "How do we do this?"
Deja Foxx
- the answer is already in the hands of young women, femmes, and non binary folks.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. Just like, hello, we've been here doing this, this entire time
Deja Foxx
Exactly. So GenZ Girl Gang, you know, is valuable in a lot of ways. But I think one of my biggest flexes: in our group, we were already doing that work. And, you know, we've also done that -
Hannah Witton
Feel free to flex!
Deja Foxx
Yeah, of course! Some great, some great impact programming too, right? This last year, we had our Back to School Survival Summit in collaboration with Instagram, because we recognised that almost half of students had never even stepped foot on their campus, right? That so many of them, the last time they were even in school was in high school. And so we created this Back to School Survival Summit, where we had panels on confidence and building your own career and finding digital community, right? We also had a graduation summit in partnership with Microsoft Store, where we recognised that like people were graduating into really scary and uncertain times and that many of them, because of the time inside, had been denied the opportunity to create their professional networks, right? That they hadn't had a chance to do internships. And so they were also graduating at a huge disadvantage in many ways. And so we had panels, you know, once again, just speaking to that experience, but the reason that we even know that these are the experiences, right - oftentimes brands, media are like, "Oh my god, we never thought of that" - is because we're living it. We're creating programming by and for us. Also, part of that something I'm really proud of, is we had our Tech Access Initiative and we picked five attendees on a need base who didn't have access to technology, right? And we sent them a laptop, headphones, and gift cards so that way they could go on and do what they needed to do. Because we recognised that tech access, internet access is actually becoming - quickly becoming a necessity, right. That in fact, it is kind of its own issue, like, in some -
Hannah Witton
And something that a lot of people assume everyone has access to these things at home, but not everyone does. Yeah.
Deja Foxx
I grew up without Wi Fi in house. I went to the library to write my essays. I didn't have my first computer, my first laptop of my own, until I got to college. I wrote my college essays on my phone. And -
Hannah Witton
Wow. Yeah.
Deja Foxx
Yeah. And there's so many young folks in our community at GenZ Girl Gang who are going through the same thing. And, you know, I got to read these applications and folks were talking about how, you know, their school had given them a laptop to use, but then when they graduated, took it away, and they couldn't apply for jobs.
Hannah Witton
Oh no!
Deja Foxx
Right? And it is those intricacies once again, that once we get into people's personal stories, we begin to see how it compounds. How not having a laptop means not being able to get your first job, means falling behind, right, economically, and that when we can make those interventions early and personally, and really tailor them to people's needs, we can make a huge difference.
Hannah Witton
Right we have some questions that some of our folks on Instagram wanted to ask you. So we're kind of going to switch a bit back to like abortion rates and stuff. Someone asked, do you like the term "pro forced birth" instead of "anti abortion"? I feel like I've seen lots more conversations around like the terminology because like people used to use "pro life". And then we're like, no, you're not pro life.
Deja Foxx
Yeah. I have not seen a lot of that term going around. But once again, we all kind of -
Hannah Witton
The pro forced birth one?
Deja Foxx
Yeah, no. I have seen a lot of "anti abortion". You know, I think that that's sort of where I'm landing in this moment. But that the conversation around talking points and messaging is constantly evolving and is a conversation we should be having. Some things I want to see less of while I'm out protesting are bloody coathangers, bloody imagery.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Deja Foxx
Handmaid's Tale, I think that those fall very tone deaf to the moment we're in, right. That we're not going back to a pre-Roe world because we have access to safe self-managed abortion, and that we shouldn't be scaring people or misguiding them just for graphic viral moments.
Hannah Witton
Right. Yeah.
Deja Foxx
And so I say all that to say that the conversation around messaging is an important one. And it's an evolving one. And I think looking to people who've been doing this work is the best way to do it. So good on you for asking. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Someone asked what methods slash talking points do you use when debating with those who are anti abortion?
Deja Foxx
I have an unpopular opinion on this, which is that I don't want to debate with people who are anti abortion. That is not my position in this work. If you have the energy to do that, if you have the privilege to do that, because most of the time, the people who are anti abortion do not look like me, have more privilege than me, and frankly, don't really believe in my humanity. I'm going to pass.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, fair enough.
Deja Foxx
I'm going to use my energy instead to create access, right? There are tonnes of different kinds of ways we can be in this work. And there are definitely people who are in the position to change minds. I am not. I am in the position to create access.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, if you've got somebody in your life, who is like maybe like a family member or somebody who's close to you, who has different views to you, then it's like - I think when it comes to -
Deja Foxx
You do that work. You go to your Thanksgiving table and do that work.
Hannah Witton
When it comes to like these debates as well, I think sometimes you can get caught in like creating gotcha moments that don't really serve anything other than like, "Hey, look, like, I caught this person out," like all of those like viral things.
Deja Foxx
Yeah, which has it's own place, right, like maybe those viral moments do create moments of awakening for other people in the media landscape, right. Like the encounter I had with Jeff Flakes -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you always just see it like "so and so destroyed so and so."
Deja Foxx
Right. And I think that's important to know your audience, right? Like, for example, meeting Jeff Flake, I knew he wasn't going to change his mind or change his vote. I wasn't there to change his mind. I was there to create a moment that would be an awakening moment for other people, where they would hear my story and go from being unengaged, disaffected, into engagement. Right? They would feel a personal connection with me. I wasn't even trying to change other people's minds who disagreed with me that watched this video, right. But I was trying to create these moments of awakening. And so noting that that is my role, that is what I do, and that has taken me a long time to come to that. But that might be your role. It might be your role to go out there and fight the fight against people who disagree. And we need those people. It's worth assessing where your privilege lies and how you can best leverage it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's kind of goes back to what you were saying before about safety, as well. And like your level of privilege and access will impact what you're -
Deja Foxx
- be safe for you -
Hannah Witton
- able to do. Yeah, exactly. So somebody asked, What can we do in the UK about the situation in America? I guess, people outside of America.
Deja Foxx
Yeah, this is - this is in every way in international fight, right? If you've seen the colour green coming up, as the abortion - as the colour of the abortion rights movement, right, it's sort of - if you've seen it on the streets, or in the imagery, that comes from Latin America, right? That came from the Green Wave in Latin America. And so noting that this fight is international. And I think some of the things people can do are definitely donating to abortion funds here in the US if they have the resources to do it, amplifying, right, helping create noise, continuing to show up in solidarity, at protests, following along with activists who have been doing the work, really being a supporter of them. I'm trying to think, you know, there's some other aspects in the sense that this fight, like I said, is international, not only in like the movement of it, but also in the sense that when I mentioned earlier about abortion pills and them coming from other states, they often are also coming from other countries. And so as we look forward to the future and potential like issues, legal challenges, there may also be a role for the international community to play in that, in that fight in particular. So yeah, I think stay tuned. Continue to help fund abortion. And support activists on the ground doing the work.
Deja Foxx
Yeah, and even like looking locally to like what's going on in your country or community?
Deja Foxx
Totally, and, you know, there's nowhere that is like, perfect, right. Like, there's definitely a fight to be had in your community too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Um, and then I guess, to finish this off on kind of like a, a positive note, you mentioned abortion funds. Are there any other funds, charities, organisations, that you want to shout out here and recommend that people could check out and donate to?
Deja Foxx
Yeah, I mean, in terms of abortion funds, there are so many out there, a lot of them are state specific. But there are also some that are identity specific. And so one particular abortion fund that I recommend putting your resources into is indigenous women rising, and they fund abortion for native indigenous folks, right. And I think that funding abortion, in particular states: super important. Funding abortion for particularly disadvantaged groups: also really important. So I recommend that. I talked a little bit about this earlier but I went to trainings on how to be a self managed abortion buddy through Plan C. And through Urge, which is another great org out there. So learning how to be a resource to yourself, to your community, especially around self managed abortion, is so important in this moment. Learning and knowledge sharing is important. And then also, knowing that the fight ahead is long, right, that the Supreme Court has set its sights on a number of other issues. And that we have a lot to fight for going forwards, so.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because those people, they got - they got those seats for life.
Deja Foxx
Yeah, for life. That's absolutely right. And many of them, I just want to shout out here, because I think this is kind of mind boggling. Many of those people who - again, if you're not super familiar with how the Supreme Court works, maybe you're not in the American context here. Supreme Court Justices are nominated by a president and then confirmed by the Senate, but they are not elected by the people. But they have lifetime appointments. They sit there for their entire lives. And so many of them, the majority of the ones actually that voted against Roe - so to overturn Roe v. Wade - were appointed by presidents who didn't win the popular vote, didn't get the majority of votes either. They actually won via the electoral college. And so if you're sitting here thinking, that is absolutely wild, like, that shouldn't be happening. That sounds illegitimate. You're not the only one. I think that too. And it is, we're asking this question, how did we get here? And the answer is that -
Hannah Witton
Just some piece of paper that was written like hundreds of years ago.
Deja Foxx
Yeah, that and that the right is interested in concentrating power in a few. They are not interested in democracy. They are not interested in what the general public wants or thinks. And they are creating minority rule in this country. The rule by the few. And it shows and it's on clear display right now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, Deja, thank you so much. You're absolutely brilliant. Where can people find you online, more of your work, and all of that?
Deja Foxx
I want to encourage you to follow along with me @dejafoxx - it has two Xs - on Instagram and deja_foxx on TikTok. I create a lot of videos there that are sort of day in the life, informational. I have one up right now of my experience getting arrested for abortion on Capitol Hill, which is really worth checking out. And I also urge you to follow along with my organisation at GenZ Girl Gang.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And if I could vote in a general election in the US, I would vote for you to be president, but unfortunately, I cannot. But honestly, like, best of luck, I'm so excited to see like what you do in the future and please rest and enjoy your life as well.
Deja Foxx
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Bye.
Deja Foxx
Goodbye.