Consent Culture and Intentional Relationships with Dr Meg-John Barker | Transcript
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Dr Meg-John Barker
Some writers have said love became the new religion, you know, as religions declined, and and as communities declined, that's when the shift happened where the partner or the lover was meant to be everything for us, and so much pressure was put on the romantic love.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. I am so excited about this episode. This is a real fangirl moment for me. I am absolutely obsessed with Dr Meg-John Barker, who is the guest on today's podcast.
Hannah Witton
I feel like so much of my adult sex and relationships education has come from MJ. They are an academic, and a writer, and co writer of books such as, Rewriting the Rules, Enjoy Sex (How, When, and If You Want To), and Queer : A Graphic History, amongst other books as well. Obsessed with their podcast with Justin Hancock, and Justin is also going to be on a later episode. So big fangirling moment all around for me, I basically just got to sit and chat with people whose brains I really love. I went down to Brighton to visit MJ, and we recorded this in a coffee shop, so there will be a bit of background noise but hopefully it is not too distracting from the conversation.
Hannah Witton
We talked about consent culture, and what it means to live in a non consensual society. We talked about scripts, such as the scripts that were taught for sexual encounters, scripts for relationships, or just life in general, and how we can become aware of the scripts, and maybe where we learned them from, and how we can write our own scripts for our relationships and sexual experiences, so that we're doing things the way that we want, and what suits us. So we talk a lot about different kinds of relationship styles and about having an intentional relationship. I really hope that you take away from this what I often take away from the Meg-John and Justin podcast, and the other amazing work that they do. Please just fangirl with me and have your mind blown like, like I am. I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hannah Witton
So I'm here in a coffee shop, in Brighton, with MJ. Thanks for inviting me down.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Thanks for coming. Thanks for being up for some nice hot chocolate and cold chocolate.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, MJ's got a hot chocolate, and I have an ice cold chocolate.
Dr Meg-John Barker
It's a milkshake basically.
Hannah Witton
It is milkshake. Yeah. Or it's just a hot chocolate with some ice cubes in it.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's delicious. So I wanted to get you on this podcast because you and Justin have your Meg-John and Justin podcast.
Dr Meg-John Barker
We do.
Hannah Witton
Which, like, has blown my mind. I love it. I love it for like -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Sex ed for adults and like, but not just sex stuff, like the relationships stuff, and, how, I think for kind of like a sex ed podcast, it's interesting how little you talk about sex actually. Do you know what I mean?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's so much about relationships, and like the recent one you did about values -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Although it won't be recent by the time you're listening to this.
Dr Meg-John Barker
But that's about, yeah, having different values in a relationship, and how you might navigate that.
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And I guess our feeling is like pretty much everything you need to know in life, you can kind of then usefully apply back to sex, and everything that useful in life, you can kind of learn from sex. So like being consensual, being present. So staying with your feelings. So like, we're often moving between the zone of like, sex and everything else, but almost like all the everything else podcast can apply to sex.
Hannah Witton
We kind of keep sex as separate -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
I think one of the things that definitely blew my mind a bit was you kind of introduced me to the idea that actually the society and the culture that we live in, as a whole, is non consensual.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And, and I think it can be tricky to get your head around that. So like, what does that mean to you?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, I think, you know, because the Me Too movement and everything, there can that can easily be response, which is oh, like, well, there's these kind of easy, like bulletpoints that we could follow to like, have consent. And I think Justin and I are trying to trouble that a bit, that actually it's incredibly hard to be consensual in our sex lives, or in our wider relationships, when the whole of culture is super non consensual and set up in that way. And obviously, in terms of sex, then that's things like rape myths, and just generally the idea that we owe people sex, or we should be having sex that we don't want. I mean, I studied sex advice books when Justin and I were going to write our sex advice book. I read like 60 of them, and so many of them encourage you to have sex that you don't want to have, you know -
Hannah Witton
Because it's like, oh, you should do it, you know, if they've done something nice for you.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah becomes like an obligation, or like a transaction. And again, this is not like, it doesn't lead to good sex. The more you have unwanted sex, the less you're gonna feel like having sex. And also, again, the definition usually of sex is very limited, usually, like penis in vagina, you know. And again, one of Justin and my big things is like, well, if we expanded out what we mean by sex, or kind of intimacy counts as valid in a relationship, then we wouldn't have to put so much pressure on having this particular act, which is really loaded for a lot of people, and a lot of people just don't enjoy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I don't think we give people the space, or even the option, to not enjoy it. Especially, like even especially like maybe if you're like a cis, straight, man.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like the idea that you wouldn't enjoy sex -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Exactly, it's so like, wrapped totally, masculinity is all wrapped up, you must be wanting to do that thing. But I guess, you know, going back to the question about non consensual culture, the other thing we're saying is, well, often people are like, okay, well, I better be consensual in terms of sex, and maybe trying to learn how to do that. But then the rest of their relationship is non consensual. It's like all about, oh, trying to make sure that the person that you're with does what you want on the weekend, or, you know, assuming that you must, like do household labour in a certain way, or all these other things, you know, we're kind of taught to persuade people, or to try and gradually change people into what we want them to be.
Hannah Witton
Like moulds them.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, so again, it's like you can't really talk about sex consent without thinking about the wider relationship. Because if you get super used to like trying to persuade somebody to have what you want for dinner, then how are you not going to kind of treat them that way in the bedroom as well. You know.
Hannah Witton
One of the examples I really love to demonstrate this idea is how if, say, an acquaintance of yours, or someone who you're really good friends with in school, messaged you on Facebook -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And they're like, oh, hey, I'm gonna be in Brighton. Like, do you want to get coffee? Like, would love to see you, let's get lunch. You don't want to see them.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But how do you say no?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
There is no, we're not given a framework in order to do that politely. So all we do is we lie. We say sorry, I'm busy. Oh, I've got this thing on, or you just like, straight up ignore them.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. And researchers found this. This is how it works with social requests, and with sexual requests. People don't feel able to say no.
Hannah Witton
And then there's this whole thing of like, when it comes to sex, like I remember being taught in school, like, just say no. But you're not being taught that -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah
Hannah Witton
- when an acquaintance you don't really care for is asking you, do you want to get coffee?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Precisely.
Hannah Witton
You can't be like, just say no, because that's rude.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And this is what Justin and I were saying, it's the scripts that we don't pay attention to, and in the power. So you know, the script is, someone asks you to do something, and you say yes, and that makes them happy. So again, it's really hard to go against that script. And then power is in play. It's like, why is that person who's saying, hey, let's get together, not opening up the space for you to say no? Like, so now, you know, Justin, and I certainly in our lives, we try and like, be really, like opening the window for people to opt out, which is what you'd want to do with sex as well. It's like, you know, okay, it seems like we're getting into sexy territory here. Like, you know, would you like to do this? Or would you like to do that? Or would you like to pause for a minute and think about it? You know, giving people multiple options, and always making sure that there's a get out, and that people aren't gonna feel pressured. And especially the more power you have, and the less power the other one does in terms of things like, race, gender, class, you know -
Hannah Witton
That can always tie into things. Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's just so, I just find it really frustrating, I guess. I also still find it frustrating that I still don't have a good answer to a request for meeting up from someone who I don't want to meet up with.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And again, but it's all on you isn't it? And I'm like, I suppose what we're trying to say is it should be more relational. It's like, how can that person make sure they've given you plenty of options? Or, you know, that it doesn't feel pressured for you to say yes -
Hannah Witton
So we need to be better with our asking as well.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, exactly, the whole whole exchange. It's not just about, you know, again, it's kind of getting into that victim blame territory. If we're thinking it's all on the person to say yes or no, we'd like to shift the whole script. So it's not about that.
Hannah Witton
Because the idea of a script where someone goes, oh, hey, do you want to get a coffee? And the other one goes, no, I don't want to do. And then that's the end the conversation.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That is a script that we are not used to hearing or seeing.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Precisely, so we need to practice it. And there are, you know, I think, in queer community, particularly, that there are increasingly different kinds of scripts and support for those, you know, that will really focus on self consent. You know, that people will be given an opportunity to really feel into what they enjoy, and what they don't. Disability communities are really good on this as well. Like, again, when people are dealing with having very limited energy or resources, then suddenly it's like, well, we have to think about self care, and we have to think what we're capable or not. And actually, that's something a lot of people learn when they do get sick, or they do have disability, is that, you know, suddenly that becomes vital and they have to operate in quite a different way in the world.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you can't make the same kinds of assumptions.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Exactly. So I think we need, again, often we need to look to marginalised communities who are beginning to try this stuff, like kink community, disability communities, and trans communities, queer communities, are grappling with a lot of this, and coming up with some really helpful answers.
Hannah Witton
What are some of these helpful answers?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Well, um, consent culture, you know, it's come out of the kink community, which is very much about, yeah, creating wider cultures of consent, and systems that can support people to be consensual. Scripts that people can follow in terms of when they have sex, you know, like, starting with negotiation, finishing with debriefs and aftercare, having the traffic light system of, you know, checking in with somebody ongoing, whether they want to keep going or not, that kind of thing.
Hannah Witton
For someone who isn't as clear what, in a in a BDSM context, what is the negotiation, and then like the aftercare?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. So the idea would be that the whole scene, or the whole play, or the whole encounter started way before the actual thing that you're doing, that there is conversation and checking in about what everybody likes and doesn't like, certainly everyone's aware of hard limit.
Hannah Witton
Hard limit. Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. And again, that would apply really good to any kind of sex, or any kind of play, between people, or all kinds of other things like going for a walk, or going to the pub.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, my hard limit is going uphill.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yes.
Hannah Witton
I will only go downhill
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yes. Hard limit is, you know, I don't want any spirits, like however drunk I get. Don't let me have them.
Hannah Witton
I absolutely need there to be a pub at the end.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yes, at the end of the walk. Yeah, maybe we could get into this kind of approach, you know, we'd have a much better time with all of our people, because we'd start with like, where's our overlap? And where's our difference? And let's do the things that are in the overlap.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think one of the struggles a lot of people have who aren't necessarily coming from the kink perspective, like, but negotiation is so unsexy. Like it's so clinical, like how do you, how do you get in the mood.
Dr Meg-John Barker
You reckon? It's the sexiest thing possible.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Like, you get together with somebody new, or with your partner, and you're like, okay, what are your hottest fantasies? What are my hottest fantasies? You know, that's how it can be, like describing or maybe I'm, you know, messaging back and forth.
Hannah Witton
Talking about sex makes people horny.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, it really does. Yeah, and it can totally be like a nice late night conversation, you know, where you're sharing those ideas and getting all steamed up by it. It doesn't have to be this clinical, although there might be space for having this conversation, separate to the sex kind of thing as well. But it's, you know, it's definitely finding your way with it. And it depends on the kind of relationship you're having whether this is a one off encounter, or a longer term thing. But yeah, I think it's, similarly with ongoing consent, there's this idea that it would be super unsexy to keep checking in with somebody, how's this going? But again, it can be really sexy.
Hannah Witton
Like, do you like this?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But obviously not in that tone of voice that I just used. But you're like in the throes of it.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
It actually is something that come like can come quite naturally, it doesn't sound -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Absolutely. And in the kink situation where there's often a bit of a power imbalance, then it may be the top or the dominant person who's checking in. And that can be a really sexy, kind of power thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And you know, that, that the bottom or the submissive person then has to kind of respond to that, and be really honest, and that's kind of part of the dynamic. Yeah, that's exciting.
Hannah Witton
So what's the aftercare?
Dr Meg-John Barker
That's to have some period of time afterwards, sort of come back to, to get grounded again, to come back to where, from the sexy place to a regular place.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, especially if there was some kind of roleplay involved, coming out of that.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, exactly. That you might be in a certain headspace. And then again, that's something we, we're all in a kind of different headspace when we're being sexual, or often we are. So again -
Hannah Witton
In its simplest terms, it's like the cuddle afterwards.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
But your aftercare doesn't have to be a cuddle.
Dr Meg-John Barker
It doesn't have to be, it might be that you're better off, you know, seperate after, but you just need a bit of time on your own after sex. Or it could be useful to debrief a bit, like, what was what was great, what wasn't so great. And again, like sometimes, it can be even a check in a couple of days later, just to see how that went for you once everything's calmed down a bit.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So you mentioned briefly about how these conversations might look different depending on if it's a casual encounter, or with a longtime partner. So like, what kind of advice would you generally give like, if it is a casual thing. Like how, like, for people who struggle with that confidence, especially because they've never been given like the script, I guess, of like, how to have those conversations?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Absolutely. I think this is where Justin and I are really like, keen to change the script for a hookup, for example. You know, because the script seems seems to be really, if sex happens at the end, it's been a success. And if sex doesn't happen at the end, it's been a failure. And we'd like to shift it that if consent happens, it's a success.
Hannah Witton
It doesn't matter what you consented to.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So even if you just consented to a makeout session -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, or even if you've had the consent conversation and nothing happens, and you and you're able to walk away from that situation without having pushed it, or without having been pushed, that's a really successful hook up.
Hannah Witton
It's so true that we see like, sex not happening as a failure of that encounter, like did you get laid?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, in long term relationship's and in hookups. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, yeah, that's a real problem in terms of consent, because so easily, people are putting themselves through things that they didn't really want to do, or doing things to people that they don't really want.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, whereas it's like, you want to hear more of the stories of like, we got back to their place, but then we decided we weren't really in the mood. So we just fell asleep, and cuddled, and you're like aw, that's nice.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And it's profound, you know, when you have that kind of experience, especially if you've had quite a lot of non consensual stuff. When somebody finally hears, you know, like, one of the things is, I think that we would hear anything except a really enthusiastic yes as a no, and wouldn't go any further if it was a bit maybe or a bit I'm not sure.
Hannah Witton
It's the same as that, sorry, I'm busy, is the same as like, oh, I don't know.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. Or, maybe I need to get up early, you know, I'm not too sure. Yeah. We should take anything except, you know, wholehearted enthusiasm.
Hannah Witton
And we don't, we take like, okay, challenge accepted.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. And also like, because we've not been taught to be good with our feelings. Like most of us are trained not to really tune into our bodies and our feelings. So it's about both people being able to really, you know, like, tune into, like, do I want this or not?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
The blogger, Love Uncommon, is really good on this, of like teaching self consent. Like how to know what you want, because, you know, that's another piece of it, right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because you might be like, this feels weird, but I can't quite put my finger on why I am not comfortable in this situation.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Exactly, so we should get used to as well, really tuning into ourselves, and like any flicker of I'm not sure about this, again, default to a no, you know, why not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think I've definitely had situations where, like, maybe I wasn't sure if I wanted to, like, go ahead with anything.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But my brain hadn't quite caught up to that, but my body had.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And it was like, my vagina was going, nah, you actually you don't want -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Absolutely, the body knows, you know, we need to learn to trust it better. But again, we're all taught, all the time, to override our bodies, you know, capitalism. I'm laughing because somebody, somebody on Twitter said that there should be a drinking game when every time I blame lack of self care on capitalism, everyone takes drink. Only with consent, and any kind of drink you want. But yeah -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's a nice milk chocolate for me, thank you.
Dr Meg-John Barker
But we're totally taught to override our bodies all the time in order to work, in order to do things for others, in order to be be normal, in order to succeed, all these things. And it's like unlearning all of that is a major job of work.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And I guess that, that's so tricky, because we want to sort of leapfrog to this place where, where consent just happens. And it's like, super easy, and people follow these great bulletpoints on like, how to be consensual. But that just isn't gonna be the way, we're gonna have this really clunky process where all of us are going to be doing non consensual stuff, in our everyday lives, and sometimes in sex, while we feel our way to a better way of being, right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think it's interesting because as a society, I think we assume because sex, like it's, it's not even Ye Olde, because everyone's been having all kinds of sex, forever.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But like in pure like biological terms, like reproduction. It's to like continue the human race. And so people assume that because it's got this like, natural evolutionary element to it, that it should come naturally to us as human beings, like there is some instinct within us that means we know how to do sex, because it is, for the sake of humanity, that we know how to do sex properly.
Dr Meg-John Barker
That's why food is a good analogy, right. Because, you know, we all have to -
Hannah Witton
We have to be taught how to eat food.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. And also, like, we've got so much kind of baggage and cultural stuff around what foods okay, and what isn't, and how to eat, and all our personal trauma around food, like no one has an easy relationship to food.
Hannah Witton
Such a good analogy, yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
So, you know, it's another thing which is on the face of it natural, but actually, all of our relationships with food are probably similarly complicated as our relationships to sex, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that is so true. So a friend of mine texted me, asking for some advice for her friend -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So her and her partner have just started living together. I think her partner is a man. And she seems to want more sex than he does.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And I feel like this is such a common issue, that ike comes up all the time. It's like, your sex drives are not compatible. And like, and people really see it as like the doom of a relationship? Like, how are we going to make this work? Because -
Dr Meg-John Barker
First of all, it's it would be inconceivable that it would be otherwise.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
The most - who are these people who would have this completely compatible amount of sex they want?
Hannah Witton
They want to have sex, at the exact same time, every time. Like, wow, you're horny too, right now, amazing. You want to have the same type of sex as me right now? Great.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Absolutely. That would be so weird. But of course, yeah, a lot of sex advice, a lot of media does hold out that idea. And guess what? It's our friend capitalism again, trying to sell people like sex advice books, and videos, and like everything else, selling them the idea that this is a problem that needs to be fixed, rather than this is just life, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, I think that if you can, I guess what Justin and I always try and do, first of all, it's like, sweep away, not that you can, but sweep away all of that cultural guilt tripping, and say like, this is just normal. This is just how it is. And then it's like thinking about, okay, well, what kind of sexual desires and needs do we both have? What's in the overlap?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, where's that overlap.
Dr Meg-John Barker
What's in the different bit? And then how might we, how might we meet those ones in the different bit? Like, again, there's all different kinds of monogamy, and non monogamy, and kind of relationship styles in-between.
Hannah Witton
Masturbation as well.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, exactly. I think it's so important that people are able to have solo sex like that, that's something Jus and I are just completely clear on, it's like, that's a human right.
Hannah Witton
A sex educator that I really like said, masturbation is private, but it can add to your sex life, and also your sex life can add to your masturbation, it's like -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Exactly, like where can you tune into what you're into? You know, solo sex, and I'd say a lot wider than masturbation as well. Reading erotica, watching porn, all the things that you might do alone, sexually, can help you, yeah, tune in more to what you're into.
Hannah Witton
And it can be something that you keep private, or it can be something that you like, bring into your relationship.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, I think everyone really needs that private space, and some, you know, negotiate in the relationship how you're going to allow that so it's not something to be ashamed of, or not something that somebody might walk in on. And then yeah, like, use that to tune in to where you're at, and see it as the legit form of sex in it's own way. It's so often seen as lesser than sex with another person. And that can be just as good, if not better. I mean, you know, we tend to know how we work a lot better than another person does.
Hannah Witton
There's a common thing, that I just still see around, which is people thinking that like, masturbation or watching porn is some form of infidelity.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Or it's something to feel jealous about. And I think, like you're saying, that comes back to all of those scripts that, like we've been taught about, about sex.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. And again, it's sort of wider than that, and that sense of like, somehow, in relationships, we should be together all the time, and meet all of each others needs.
Hannah Witton
"You are everything that I need."
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, the one, perfect partner.
Hannah Witton
I don't need anything else.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, it's so dangerous. It keeps people in really messed up relationships, and it also means a lot of people exiting relationships, that could be really good, because they're not perfect. So it's actually the cause of people being unhappy single and unhappy in relationships.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it just might be the case of like, okay, there's this one thing that I'm not getting from my partner, like maybe you really love a certain TV show.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And your partner is just like, nah, not for me, and you just need someone to talk about it. You just like, go find a friend, or someone online.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Exactly. You could totally have a great friend date watching that, or like, yeah, link online with somebody watching it at the same time as you. There's all these possibilities, but we're kind of taught that that's somehow lesser and not as good if we're not doing things, all these things with a partner. And that's so much pressure, that so much pressure on relationships, and also means that people aren't cultivating their whole support systems, which is, you know, then we can be really bereft when we lose a partner because we've kind of made them into the whole support system.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Rather than having a support system around ourselves and the relationship.
Hannah Witton
And that can also be really hard on the person who is being relied upon.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Oh yeah, on everybody. It's a lot of pressure. And it's, you know, a historical thing of some writers have said love became the new religion. You know, as religions declined, and as communities declined, and we got this sort of nuclear family model, which is really quite recent. Kind of that's when the shift happened, where the partner, or the lover, was meant to be everything for us, and so much pressure was put on a romantic love.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's really interesting. I read Sapiens recently, have you read that?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Oh yeah, I have.
Hannah Witton
I just loved all of the discussions in it about like, it would talk about religion, and would kind of like discuss the religions that we like, know the names of -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But then in his definition of religion, he was like, also capitalism, and Nazism, and liberalism, and feminism. Like all of these things are like ideological belief systems that people subscribe to. And there are certain like do's and don'ts and, yeah, I found it very interesting.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, and you could see again, romantic love, and all of the rules of romantic love that we see in pop songs and romance movies, like all of that could be seen as another one of those ideologies. It's not like fact, it's done in very different ways, all around the world, but we tend to take it on board as like, this is how we do things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And anyone who kind of lives outside of it is seen as a bit wrong, or a bit, you know, not normal.
Hannah Witton
So romantic love has been romanticised.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Basically is what's happened.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, and we just need to have it in its place. It's not that it's not amazing. But so are lots of other kinds of love; self love, love of the planet, love of friends, you know, all these other kinds of love are equally valid.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so interesting that that's, it's so is something that we, we kind of strive for without acknowledging that maybe some people don't want to strive for it. But then also, like, maybe some people who do want to strive for it, like are unlucky. Like something, like it never works out. And like how are they then supposed to feel? like failures?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Because that really is the message that can be internalised, and and that like feeling of not just rejection from like individual partners or situations, but some kind of rejection from like, I'm not doing life properly.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, it seen as like one of the boxes to tick big time or, or a series of boxes to tick, you know,
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, you've got to get your education, and then you get your job, and then you get married, and then you have babies.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
And you retire to the South of France. I feel like that's a Cards Against Humanity card.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I think all of those, you know, I think dismantling all of the ideas of what's successful is incredibly helpful to do, but it's also really hard because the wider culture really reinforces is. So that's why we need our communities, and systems of support that allow for other ways of being, being equally successful. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Do you find, have you found it harder, like more recently, to get those kinds of communities that maybe were more prevalent like a century ago?
Dr Meg-John Barker
That's interesting.
Hannah Witton
Because I feel like a lot of people talk about this loneliness epidemic.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Oh yeah.
Hannah Witton
And and I don't, you know, we could blame capitalism obviously, we could blame social media, like there's there's so much that's kind of like contributing to this.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, I mean, Justin and I always ask like what does it open up and what does it close down, like that's our go to. And I think you know, the times we live in open up potential for community, and close down potential community, so you can so much more easily find like minded people online, you know. When it was you in your village and yeah, you were the only gay in the village -
Hannah Witton
The only gay in the village.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Or the only poly, or the only queer, or whatever, then it was really hard. Whereas now you can find people who do things the way you do. What does it close down? Well often you do find a community, and you think well I better do everything the way they do things here because this is my community, and then you find you in a new straight jacket, or a new crab bucket, as I always put it. The Terry Pratchett analogy is like, you move from one bucket of crabs, which is kind of holding you down, as the crab who's trying to leave the bucket. And then you then you find your way out of that bucket, but then you find your way back into a different one, you know.
Hannah Witton
A word I've come across, learning about like different styles of relationships, is like relationship anarchy.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Oh, yeah, this is this is my style.
Hannah Witton
Oh really? How does that work for you?
Dr Meg-John Barker
It's, again I think it means a lot of different things, to different people, which is true of monogamy, and polyamory, and all of the other approaches, but -
Hannah Witton
I wish people who were monogamous, myself included, like understood that there are different versions of monogamy as well
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, there's so many. In fact, the research suggests that some of the main reasons monogamous relationship breakup is because people have different understandings of monogamy. So it's really worth -
Hannah Witton
Like, is watching porn a part of that?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Or being friends with the ex, or this kind of stuff. And is it monogamish or monogamous? Anyway, so yeah, relationship anarchy. For me, the most important piece is about valuing different kinds of love equally.
Hannah Witton
So there's no like hierarchy?
Dr Meg-John Barker
It's questioning of hierarchy. I think it's always, it's always tricky to get to that like, oh yes, I have no hierarchies, because yeah, inevitably we will spend a bit more time with this person rather than that person -
Hannah Witton
We all have favourites.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, we may prefer time with so and so. But it's sort of about, certainly equalising different forms of love, and thinking about your relationship with yourself as a very important one, and your relationship with friends you know, potentially a relationship with projects, you know, I like that it can get beyond people and think about companion animals, or the planets or yeah.
Hannah Witton
I like that. Or like, my work.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah. I mean yeah, like how many of us I mean, like that was even in Sex in the City, I think, that idea that work can be someone's, and certainly, oh yeah, Dykes To Watch Out For, that comic series, had somebody who's like that, that work was their primary partner, which I kind of liked. But it's useful, you know, because then you can say to people like, yeah, this is this is my life, this is the shape of it, you know, these are the things that are important to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And recognise that different kinds of love, or different kinds of passions, can be equally important. And then I think there's a lot about freedom in relationship anarchy, as well not belonging to people, but being free, and then sharing aspects of your lives together. But that not necessarily being about the kind of ownership, or belonging, kind of model, which again, is patriarchy.
Hannah Witton
And there's still space within that to have conversations about like, jealousy, or rejection -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Oh God, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Because it's like, those feelings don't suddenly disappear.
Dr Meg-John Barker
No, I mean the shadow side of some non monogamy relationship patterns, or styles, and relationship anarchy, sometimes, as well, isthis sort of idea of like, oh, everybody's completely free, and nobody should feel jealousy, and nobody should feel difficult feelings. Like we can't, you can't escape difficult feelings. I would say that no relationship style is any easier or better than any other. It's not about replacing one with another and saying, like, this should work for everybody. It's about people finding their own way, and recognising that human relationships are bloody difficult. And there is no escape from that. It's just like, how do we do that?
Hannah Witton
And it all comes down to communication.
Dr Meg-John Barker
That's a good, that's a good thing, communication with ourselves, and with others. But again, within this wider culture that we're in, we're still going to struggle, we're going to struggle to even know ourselves well enough, and to be intimate with somebody else without being really defensive.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also, like, how do you want to communicate? Because you might find it really difficult to do like a face to face -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
- I'm gonna say these words to you. You might find like, an email easier. Or someone I know, they were telling their coming out story, and apparently what they did was, they like wrote, I'm a lesbian or I'm gay, on like, on a piece of paper, left in a room and was like, mum, go in there.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Wow.
Hannah Witton
And, like, I can totally get like, why that might be the way that you're most comfortable in like sharing things.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Well, absolutely. This is this idea of like, meta communication.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, communicate about how you communicate.
Dr Meg-John Barker
It's so important, like setting that framework, and finding what works for everybody.
Hannah Witton
That kind of stuff would help so much when you get that anxiety about like, they haven't texted me back in like six hours, but if you have some kind of meta communication about how terrible at texting, and it's not personal -
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Because I know that I'm like, I'm a big texter. Like if I - if I get a text, like I will reply. But my partner is like, not big on phone calls.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Which is kind of tricky because like, I go away quite a bit. So if I'm away, like, actually, our communication goes down quite a lot. Because neither of us have like, we've not really found a way that works both of us that we enjoy. Because we maybe we can like do 10 minutes on the phone, until we're like, okay, great
Dr Meg-John Barker
I mean, it's, again, like what opens up that we now at least have all these different options. And I think messenger works really well, for a lot of people who are a bit more writing rather than talking.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
And again, video type ones can be better for some people who don't like the talking without seeing the face. So there are lots of options. But again, it's, yeah, having that conversation, and continuing to have it. And yeah, thinking how much contact is good, you know, again, like more contact isn't necessarily better. Sometimes it can be great to have a bit of a break from each other, and then really appreciate each other coming back together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. And I think that again, just comes down to what you were saying about the, you're given this idea that that person, you're supposed to want to spend all of that time with them.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And like, if you get bored around them, that's a really bad sign.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Absolutely. Yeah. And it's like, we need to have space for just all of these emotions in relationship that boredom, you know, struggles. Yeah, like, sadness, fear, all of these emotions are going to happen in relationships, so the kind of idea that we ought to only be having good feelings and no bad feelings is, generally speaking, a problem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, watch Inside Out, by Pixar?
Hannah Witton
Yes. Oh, my goodness.
Dr Meg-John Barker
See how all the emotions are really important.
Hannah Witton
I love it.
Dr Meg-John Barker
I know, I love it too.
Hannah Witton
A therapist friend of mine talked about - was talking to me about how trauma works in the brain.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And apparently the, the inside out like metaphor of the memory balls.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yes.
Hannah Witton
So like, if you have a traumatic memory, it's like it's smashing on the floor. And then, all the splinters of that going into other memories.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
So you could suddenly find yourself being triggered by things, or like remembering like the traumatic experience, even though like, you're seemingly remembering something that's completely like not related, but it's because it splinters of life. And so you have to go into each of those memories, pick out the splinter, and that's the process.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I love this analogy. I love Pixar.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, that movie is so much of a - I cry throughout every time I watch it.
Hannah Witton
I cry.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, yeah, like when Goofball Island goes down, I can't even, I can't even. I'm like welling up right now.
Hannah Witton
Oh, well, this has been such a great chat. Thank you so much for joining me. And I will leave all of your relevant links in the shownotes.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Thank you. The shownotes
Hannah Witton
That's what podcasters say, right?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Justin and I call it a show. I called it a show for about six months before Jus will get on board with it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I guess I just would love people to take away like, questioning about the messages that you're told about, like, how a relationship should be and like, yeah, like you were saying about really tuning into yourself about, like, what do you want?
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah, and that's okay.
Hannah Witton
Super important.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Thank you.
Dr Meg-John Barker
Cheers.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media, and I'll catch you in the next episode.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast.