How To Have Feminist Sex with Flo Perry | Transcript
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Flo Perry
My girlfriend has a great theory where says there are only two types of lesbians; sport lesbians and art lesbians. Unlike other kinds of things, where you need one of each in a relationship, sport lesbians just stick with sport lesbians and art lesbians stick with art lesbians.
Hannah Witton
This is like the one kind of segregation that she's like down with.
Flo Perry
Yeah, she's like very pro.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things, sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hi everyone, welcome back to Doing It. So I teased this in a previous episode, but I want to confirm that yes, we are going to be bringing things to an end for Season One very soon. So we have this glorious episode with Flo Perry, and they've got two more episodes with different guests, really excited for you to listen to those as well. And then we shall be taking a little break, but not really a break at all. The final official episode of season one will be going out on the fourth of December, but then over the Christmas and the New Year period, there will be minisodes. So we will still be in your podcast app weekly with some really fun stuff. I'm very excited about what we have planned, but it's just not going to be the usual interview format. And then Season Two is going to be coming back with a bang, a literal bang, well actually, not a literal bang, in January. So thank you so much for all of your support since the launch of this podcast. I have had so much fun doing this, and I can't wait to continue making more. So without further ado, let me introduce you to this week's guest.
Hannah Witton
Flo Perry is an artist, and an illustrator, and writer. She recently released her book slash what's the equivalent of like an illustrated nonfiction book? An illustrated nonfiction book, yes, called How To Have Feminist Sex. Despite the title, it is not a prescriptive guide of this is how you do it, because spoiler alert, the way to have feminist sex is to do what you want to do, and unpacking all of those patriarchal conditioning of the kind of sex that we think we should be having, because of what society tells us. So it's doing things that the way that you and the person or the people that you are having sex with want. And sometimes that can mean not having sex at all. The book is super focused on pleasure and autonomy, and it is brilliant, and it's also very, very funny and Flo's illustrations, and are all so cool. It covers all sorts of topics like kink, virginity, and pubic hair. As well as chatting about her new book and feminist sex, we also talked a lot about sexuality as a Flo came out as a lesbian when she was a teenager, but has since come out as bisexual. She also runs this lesbian club night called Aphrodyki, which is just a brilliant name. I can't get over it. We recorded this at Flo's flat, and she has a cat, and you might be able to occasionally hear said cat. Her cat decided to come and join us on the table and hang out with us. I really hope that you enjoy this episode. And thanks so much for listening.
Flo Perry
Hi Hannah.
Hannah Witton
Hello, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. We're talking about your book, How To Have Feminist Sex?
Flo Perry
Yes, thanks for having me
Hannah Witton
How do you have feminist sex?
Flo Perry
Well -
Hannah Witton
Big question.
Flo Perry
Big question. Yeah, my definition of feminist sex is just the sex that you want to be having, rather than the sex that you feel like you should be having. It's sex free from expectations that you might, negative expectations that you might have from the media, or from porn, or from your family members, or from yoghurt adverts.
Hannah Witton
Those are the main culprits.
Flo Perry
Yeah, they really are, I don't like them at all. Love yoghurts, hate yoghurt adverts. Basically just maximum pleasure for women.
Hannah Witton
That sounds amazing. And what like made you want to write this book? Or draw that book? Create the book? Birth the book?
Flo Perry
Not quite. I love sex, I love talking about sex. I think it's like the most fun thing to talk about. I'm sure you agree.
Hannah Witton
I, yeah, that's why I have this podcast. I'm like, how do I talk about sex more? I know.
Flo Perry
And I thought that there was a lot of talking about sex in the media and feminism, But it all tend to be about how sex is a source of trauma for women, which of course it is for a lot of women. But also sex is a source of joy. Mainly, it should be a source of joy. That's the point of it. And that didn't seem to be a conversation that we were having. And I think that, even though it sounds very obvious, lots of women forget that that's what sex is for.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And one of the great things about your book, one thing I love is just how non judgmental it is. Just about like whatever you want to do with your body, and whatever kind of sex that you want to have, and it just, yeah, I think it's really great at like championing that joy, but understanding that like joy is different for everyone.
Flo Perry
Yeah, different strokes for different folks.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. I, one of the my favourite phrases that I've heard, I've no idea where, like, where it originates from is, your kink is not my kink, but your kink is okay.
Flo Perry
Yeah, like there are loads of things happening out there that don't turn me on, but I'm just like, good for you. It's fun. As long as you having fun, it doesn't matter.
Hannah Witton
I think I definitely had to, like really practice that as well. Because there's like a really great bit in your book that I love where it's like you talk about how sex like, is a bit disgusting. And, like, I totally resonated with that, because I was actually explaining this to a friend the other day. I was like, think about giving your partner a blowjob. Like, just think like, think about that, imagine that. That's like, a good, like, feeling, potentially, a good idea. And then I was like, there's like, we were just like walking down the street and like a random guy walked past us. And I was like, imagine giving him a blowjob and suddenly like, ugh! Like, it's the same act like it's exactly the same thing, but just context either makes it really fun and pleasurable, or, like horrendous and disgusting, and maybe terrifying. And so I, yeah, in terms of like, accepting like that anyone could be like, into anything, you kind of have to switch off that, like automatic disgust that you get by like, some sex acts, that you personally might be like, ugh, absolutely not, no gross.
Flo Perry
Sex is like, oh -
Hannah Witton
A cat.
Flo Perry
He's just trying to get in your bag, he loves bags.
Hannah Witton
There's a banana in there - is that -
Flo Perry
He won't eat the banana, he will just cover your bag in hair. Anyways, yeah, sex is if you think about it disgusting. It's like mashing your genitals together.
Hannah Witton
So weird.
Flo Perry
Very unhygenic. Kind of gross. But we love it in certain contexts, you'revso right. And most people do. And I think that, yeah, if someone tells you about a kink or sex act that you find personally disgusting, that's okay. You don't have to do it. Just like, don't go, oh my god, I can't believe you did that. That's disgusting. Park your judgement, basically.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I also think like, it's good to recognise when you do have that reaction of like, oh, and be like, huh, that's interesting that I feel that way.
Flo Perry
Yeah. Why do you feel that way?
Hannah Witton
And be like, oh, that's interesting. You don't necessarily have to change it. But yeah, like you said, like, don't put that on somebody else who's telling you like, oh, I did this the other night.
Flo Perry
Yeah, a lot of women feel that about, like, oral sex to them. Like a lot of women feel disgust to the idea of like licking a vagina. And I think that's one that you should really should examine and be like, okay, why do you think that's disgusting? Why do you think that's more disgusting than sucking a penis?
Hannah Witton
And I think also that there's a lot of like, self disgust about like, women's own genitals as well, being like, that idea of like, why would anyone want to, like, be like, face on?
Flo Perry
Yeah, lots of people do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. It's like, they're, you know, they're down. They're there and they're enjoying it. You know, there's that great scene in one of the Vagina Monologues of like, a woman who I think has like a not so great relationship with her vagina. And then like, a lover that she has just, like, wants to stare at it.
Flo Perry
I love that.
Hannah Witton
And just like, and she talks about how like, strange that felt. And then like how arousing it was, like not being touched, but just like, basically just someone just like, down there. Just like looking.
Flo Perry
I can definitely be into that, yeah.
Hannah Witton
There's something out there for everyone. Um, speaking of vaginas, you talk about like, the different words for it, and you are not a fan of the word pussy.
Flo Perry
At the time, there's a lot of things I wrote in the book, now I'm like, at the time I felt like that. Now I'm like, I don't know yeah, pussy, I don't personally like calling my vagina a pussy. I'm not like against it morally or anything. For me, it feels like something that men say and women don't. I don't know. I never say my pussy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I definitely think that I used to hear pussy a lot more from men, or in porn. But actually, more recently, I've heard a lot more from my, like queer women friends.
Flo Perry
That's really interesting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's almost like, I don't know if it's, you know, being reclaimed. I don't know. But because I used to always have like a very like, ugh reaction.
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
To the word pussy. Like it made me feel like weird and gross, and just like, er no, that's, that's not what it's called, that's not its name. But I kind of like it to, liken it to like a very catchy song.
Cat
(Cat Meows)
Hannah Witton
Oh, hey, that's a pussy. That is an actual pussy. Where like, you hear a song that's really bad. And you're like, Oh, I hate the song. And then you listen to it over and over again, and then suddenly you're like, I love this song. That's kind of how I feel about the word pussy now, like I feel like I've heard it enough times in a good context, because I think like context I was hearing it in was like this really -
Flo Perry
Porn, basically
Hannah Witton
Yeah, was like this really gross context, that I didn't relate to at all. And then the pussy is just like, out and about.
Flo Perry
Yeah
Hannah Witton
Love it. Love it. But yeah, I just I think, yeah, it all comes down to context, because I think hearing like lesbian friends of mine use it, for them it's got nothing to do with men, nothing to do with like the patriarchy it's, it's their word.
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And so hearing it in, like a more positive context. And like, huh.
Flo Perry
That's interesting. Yeah. I feel like for me, I still don't find it sexy for me personally.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
I tend to like say vagina if I'm just like talking about casually. And then in a sexy context, I'll say like, I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, the C word
Hannah Witton
We can say the C word.
Flo Perry
We can, I'll say cunt.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
That's how I like to refer to my vagina.
Hannah Witton
It's bold.
Flo Perry
Yeah, it feels like naughty and sexy and yeah, totally un-male gazey as well.
Cat
(Cat meows)
Flo Perry
I'm really sorry about my cat.
Hannah Witton
No, I love it. It's part of the ambiance.
Flo Perry
Okay, great.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no other, until recently, with kind of warming a bit too pussy more, cunt is like, my favourite.
Flo Perry
It's really sexy.
Hannah Witton
I think it's sexy. And also I think it shocks people, which I also enjoy doing.
Flo Perry
Yeah, saying, like, my cunt, feels very empowering to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that's interesting because some people who have vaginas will also hate the word cunt. And so -
Flo Perry
I think they feel like it's bad that like the word for vagina is like the most naughty word in the English language.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Which I think -
Flo Perry
I love that.
Hannah Witton
Says more about the English language then cunts.
Flo Perry
I think so too.
Hannah Witton
But it is true. And also, you mentioned the word twat in there as well and but isn't that like a really bad word in America? Well, I think cunt is worse in the States. Everything is just worse in the States.
Flo Perry
We never say twat in relation to - I've never called my vagina a twat.
Hannah Witton
No, because I -
Flo Perry
I say twat all the time.
Hannah Witton
Which is the one, in school, I was - there was like, in the rumour mill or like what kids would say on the playground, is that it also means a pregnant fish or was that twit? Is this bullshit?
Flo Perry
I have never heard that before! That is just like, wherever you're from, that's like a very niche rumour.
Hannah Witton
I'm from Manchester. Anyone from Manchester, like let me know. I'm literally like googling this now. Like, pregnant fish slang. Why, I don't know. I think it's bullshit. Pregnant fish, twat, is it a thing?
Flo Perry
I have never heard of this before in my life.
Hannah Witton
I'm like, come through urban dictionary. Tell me. Oh, my 4G is being terrible. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it is commonly thought that twat is a noun to describe a pregnant goldfish. However, this definition of the word has never appeared in a respectable dictionary. This is what Wikipedia is saying. Yeah.
Flo Perry
Well, it's not just you, but it's definitely not me.
Hannah Witton
Okay, maybe it was a northern thing. I don't know.
Flo Perry
It's a good way to describe kinks as well. Not just you, but it's definitely not me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're not alone, but I'm not with you. Just not me, I like that a lot. What, because you're also an artist -
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So you like you wrote the book, and you also like did all of the illustrations in it, which are glorious.
Flo Perry
Thank you very much.
Hannah Witton
What's your favourite body part to draw?
Flo Perry
Oh, 100% boobs.
Hannah Witton
Yeah?
Flo Perry
Yeah, like I love drawing boobs. I love drawing all sizes of boobs, all shapes of boobs. Yeah, I like drawing curvier, slightly bigger women. I think that they're beautiful and it's really fun, basically. Yeah, it's like, it's really, I love I love drawing a saggy breast.
Hannah Witton
Oh I love that. Well I can't relate to the drawing them, but I can relate to the like the -
Flo Perry
Thinking about them
Hannah Witton
Thinking about them, and then just like the having round, saggy breasts.
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's all good. No, I love the, I love all of the different illustrations there. I want, I have the book with me and I wanted to grab it out. But -
Flo Perry
I've got like 10 here.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Yeah, grab them! There was erm, ah fantastic. Yeah, some of the bits in it, like some of the homework, I literally just opened it on the page on a bit that actually made me laugh out loud. Where you say, men are taught from a young age that sex is all about their pleasure, while women are taught that sex is about pleasing your man and making babies, and then you've got this man here, with the speech bubble saying, sounds great. And then this woman is like, it's bullshit Colin. I don't know why, but that just really got me. And then Colin makes an appearance later on in the book.
Flo Perry
I have like four or five names that I think are, like, really memeable names. Like Collin, Carol, and Susan, I tend to use all the time.
Hannah Witton
I love it, like it's bullshit, Colin. That really cracked me up. I absolutely love it. What has been like the process of getting a book deal, and creating the book, like how long did it take for you to write and draw it all?
Flo Perry
It took about a year. It took a long time to get the book deal. But I did like 20% of it before you get the book deal, I think that's like the norm for nonfiction books. You do like a sample, that took about like, a month and a half. And then -drawing and writing - then took like six months to get a book deal. Yeah, once I had a book deal, did it in about nine months, I think.
Hannah Witton
Amazing.
Flo Perry
But yeah, it was it was really fun. It's like very much my original idea.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
Because at first I was like, I was getting offers that were like, yeah, we liked this, but can you make it kind of lighter? They wanted it like basically just like, more just like my Instagram page, just like comics. Joke, joke, joke, joke. And it is a funny book. But I wanted it to be a funny book that also kind of had a point.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
And substance and like, yeah, you know, you could learn something from, and was like more than a toilet book, a book you would actually like read from start to finish.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
And then I found a publisher that wanted that was great. That was really great.
Hannah Witton
That's interesting. I feel like a lot of authors have got like, similar stories of like, they wanted to change this and this and, and water down, like the message and stuff, but it's definitely an important message. So pretty good. Good that you've you found, you found someone to do that. So how do you currently identify?
Flo Perry
I identify as bisexual or pansexual, whatever you want to call me. I'm not that fussy about the difference. Queer -
Hannah Witton
I think a lot of people aren't nowadays. about like, I think bisexual and pansexual kind of interchangeable, but more people have heard the term bisexual so I think that's why it's -
Flo Perry
Yeah, I feel like it's a traditional term and I feel like people made up pansexual for it to be more inclusive but yeah, and there's no reason you can't be an inclusive bisexual person.
Hannah Witton
And how was that process for you of like coming out or realising you were bi?
Flo Perry
I did the really rare reverse come out, where I came out as a lesbian age 15. I had a great time, had a really fun adolescence. It was really like a fun game. I had a girlfriend at school it was you, know -
Hannah Witton
Amazing.
Flo Perry
Pretty easy in the grand scheme of life events.
Hannah Witton
Was it taken seriously? Because that's I think one of the, especially like when you're young.
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And also it's like women loving women, which is -
Flo Perry
It was, my parents really great about it. And yeah, in school, I went to an all girl school, and it was, yeah, I had like a little bit of trouble, but really nothing major.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
Got quite a lot of sex, so that was great. Did lots of snogging.
Hannah Witton
Love, love some snogging.
Hannah Witton
And you're like, what's that about?
Flo Perry
Yeah, love snogging. Still love snogging, major pastime. Yeah. And then yeah, I went to university and got a boyfriend .
Flo Perry
He looks a lot like a girl. Bless him, if he's listening.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. I had a boyfriend when I was like 13/14, and he had the classic like long, floppy hair. And it was the time that The Killers got big, and like, my parents caught, still to this day they referenced this boyfriend as the boyfriend who looks like a girlfriend.
Flo Perry
Aw, poor boy. Yeah, being -
Hannah Witton
No, he got a lot of snogging, not poor boy.
Flo Perry
Yeah, great. Yeah, nothing bad for boy to look like a girl. Personally, I think it's kind of sexy.
Hannah Witton
It's kind of my type.
Flo Perry
Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah being gay in Durham, where I went to university, wasn't cool.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Flo Perry
And so for four years I kind of tried on being heterosexual. Not really through choice.
Hannah Witton
Why do you think that was? Was that -
Flo Perry
Lack of availability?
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay.
Flo Perry
Were not like - girls weren't experimenting for fun, like they were -
Hannah Witton
In other universities
Flo Perry
I say that very like, light hearted, like experiment for fun. Basically, girls who were bisexual didn't feel like they could, like, lightheartedly experiment with their sexuality, or come out easily, I think.
Hannah Witton
Why do you think that was?
Flo Perry
Just because it was like a very conservative place. It's like young Tory breeding ground. I come from like, beautiful liberal North London.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love North London.
Flo Perry
I do too. It's actually my favourite place in the entire world. Yeah, yeah. And then, and then I came back to London, and since then, I've dated both men and women. I've had long term relationships with women. I'm in one right now. It's great.
Hannah Witton
Happy days.
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting about your university experience. One of my friends, who is a gay woman, actually went to Durham.
Flo Perry
Oh, really?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Maybe you just never crossed paths.
Flo Perry
What's here name? I knew about four.
Hannah Witton
Rowan Ellis
Flo Perry
No, I didn't know her. Well, if she was there, like -
Hannah Witton
You would have been like, be my friend.
Flo Perry
Yeah. If I met her, I really would have tried to be a friend. I knew about like three lesbians in Durham, and didn't fancy any of them. Such a missed opportunity. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Especially when like, the pool is so small and you, like and I don't fancy them. Dammit, if only!
Flo Perry
Yeah, but there are lots of like extremely hunky men in Durham, that were extremely available. So I was like, okay, those will do, I suppose.
Hannah Witton
Fine, second best. You've also started this like queer women, non binary, club nights.
Flo Perry
Yes. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Aphrodyki, which is a fantastic name. I'm like, I love it. But how did that come about?
Flo Perry
It's basically just me and my mates, sitting around a dinner table, being like we wanna go to a night for queer women, on a Saturday night, that plays pop music. Why is there nothing.
Hannah Witton
Why wasn't that a thing? That's wild
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I guess, also, a lot of like, the bar club scene for LGBT people, it's very geared to like gay cis men
Flo Perry
Yeah, it really is. And it's just it's really hard to persuade - basically what you need for lesbian night, that you don't necessarily need for a gay male night, is a door policy. Because men are going to want to come in, and you're gonna want to turn them away. Because, all we are at Aphrodyki is a basement full of women, that's our only selling point, other than like a Rhianna based playlist.
Hannah Witton
But why would, why would some men like want to go because the likelihood -
Flo Perry
They see a huge queue full of sexy ladies.
Hannah Witton
True. But as soon as they find out that most of them aren't into them.
Flo Perry
It's funny, like a drunk guy on like a stag do, you know at 1am, in Shoreditch, they don't take it seriously. You say, look this is a lesbian night, they don't -
Hannah Witton
They're like, great. Women will make out in front of me. This is fantastic.
Flo Perry
Exactly. But yeah, all we are is like, a safe space.
Hannah Witton
That's brilliant. And how many of those of you kind of done?
Flo Perry
I think we're number 25. We've done loads .
Hannah Witton
Amazing.
Flo Perry
I just made that number up. I pulled it out of thin air. But like, five years, five a year, feels about right? Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you find, because one of the things that I hear a lot of talk about is the fact that a lot of the kind of like safe spaces for queer people to hang out is very, like club, nights out, alcohol based. Do you find that there are like, non alcohol, like daytime venues, events, for queer women around London?
Flo Perry
No, I think, I don't have any experience in this, but I think if you didn't drink, it would be. I think not drinking and dating generally is really hard. Especially if you're doing that in a community where alcohol is a big thing, like the gay community. So yeah, I can imagine that being really hard, and that's not something I want for Aphrodyki because I think that Aphrodyki we are this thing. I don't want to like - you, I think there's a real pressure with lesbian nights that you kind of have to be everything, and include everyone. And it's like, no, you can just be the thing that you are. Like, we can just be a night for women, who like drinking vodka, and listening to Rhianna. There's enough of them and you know, it's fine. But yeah, other nights, I know that Pussy Palace, which is another -
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, I've heard that one.
Flo Perry
Yeah, and the night that reclaims the word pussy, that has like a non drinking room in their night.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay.
Flo Perry
So like, that could be a thing, if that's something you're into. But yeah, I think that it must be really hard.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so true about the dating and alcohol thing though.
Flo Perry
It's the same for straight people though.
Hannah Witton
Oh 100%. It's just like, the first thing you go to is like, oh should we go get a drink?
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And then, you know, you're three drinks in, and you're like I definitely fancy you a bit more now.
Flo Perry
At least lesbians have sports.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you can play.
Flo Perry
There's lots of lesbian football teams out there.
Hannah Witton
You can play sports together, and like get physical.
Flo Perry
My girlfriend has a great theory which says there are only two types of lesbians; sport lesbians and art lesbians.
Hannah Witton
So you're an art lesbian, and she's the sport lesbian?
Flo Perry
No, she's an art lesbian.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Flo Perry
She thinks that like unlike other kinds of things, where you need one of each in a relationship, sport lesbians should stick with sport lesbians, and art lesbians should stick with art lesbians.
Hannah Witton
This is like the one kind of segregation that she's like down with.
Flo Perry
Very pro, yeah. Each relationship kind of needs a top and a bottom, but you only want one kind of lesbian.
Hannah Witton
So you can have, but art and sport lesbians don't go together.
Flo Perry
I mean, prove me wrong.
Hannah Witton
I'm trying to like pluck some examples but this is the first that I've heard of that categorization. So now I'm gonna like look out for it, and I'll let you know.
Flo Perry
Okay.
Hannah Witton
If I find any couples that I'm like oh, but you're the -
Flo Perry
And then how long are they gonna last?
Hannah Witton
They're lesbians, they last forever, right? No. Oooooo, that's a stereotype
Flo Perry
They last for three to five years and they have a really messy break up. It breaks up a whole friendship group.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Flo Perry
Not speaking for personal experience at all,
Hannah Witton
It's too real! What do you hope that people get out of How To Have Feminist Sex. Back to the book.
Flo Perry
Back to my book, yeah, that's what we're trying to talk about. Um, I hope that they, they feel like permission to do whatever they like. That sounds really stupid, but I think that it's really hard to know what you want from sex. It's something that actually, a lot of women were prescribed this one view of what our sex life should look like, you want to get a boyfriend, you want to pin him down, and you will have slightly submissive sex with him.
Flo Perry
Just slightly.
Flo Perry
Yeah, if you want to see, you know, you just want to be like the little girly girl, but don't spank me. No, no, no. That's the kind of like view that we're presented. And anything else is seen as like, outside the mainstream, is hard to access. I just want basically to give women permission to spend some time, wanking probably, on their own thinking about what their sex life wants to look like for them, and then feeling like confident enough that they can talk about it, and talk about sex with their partner and be like, this is what I want.
Hannah Witton
This is what I enjoy. Yeah, but also, I think you can, I think it's also great to give yourself permission to not know what you want. And to really kind of spend some time in that place. And maybe, maybe use a bit of porn as some inspiration, or like conversations with friends, or books.
Flo Perry
Being open minded. Yeah, it's definitely important. I think it's important to have that conversation with your partner, like what do you masturbate about?
Hannah Witton
Yes. Oh my god, I love having that conversation.
Flo Perry
Same, it's my favourite.
Hannah Witton
Although what's really interesting, like, in my relationship, I feel like I want to know everything about their masturbation sessions, and I'm more than happy to share everything about mine with him. But actually, he's quite a private person. And so I've had to really kind of like step back and go actually, masturbation is a private thing and you actually don't have to, like share the ins and outs. But every so often, I'd be like, so what kind of porn do you watch? Or like, what were you thinking about?
Flo Perry
If you have like a really naughty wank about their best friend, then you don't have to share that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
You keep in your head.
Hannah Witton
But also there's nothing wrong with that, as well.
Flo Perry
No, as long as it just stays in your head.
Hannah Witton
What you get turned on by I'm like, I am convinced like, we have no control over that.
Flo Perry
Oh, I am 100% like, something I say in the book is like don't beat yourself up about your sexual fantasies because you can't change them.
Hannah Witton
You can't change them. And also, they are always consensual because they are happening between you and your imagination.
Hannah Witton
So like, because a lot of people get a bit worried about like having like ravishment fantasies, as well. And maybe like, fantasising about scenarios that are non consensual. But I'm like, I think when you think of it as like, there is no way a fantasy can't be consensual because it's happening between you and you. Yeah.
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Flo Perry
Yeah, and you don't have to do it in real life. It can just stay as a fantasy.
Hannah Witton
Just stay as a fantasy.
Flo Perry
There's nothing breakable in your bag?
Hannah Witton
No, that's just a packet of crisps.
Flo Perry
He's slowly crushing. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think that, but then I think, what's a great way is to look at the themes in your masturbation, and then seeing what themes are there. So like, often there's a power dynamic.
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Flo Perry
Often you will either be in a submissive or dominant role, predominantly. And you can see okay, in all of my sexual fantasies, I'm kind of dominant, I'm in control, how can I put that more in my sex life? And like maybe that's something to talk about with your partner. If you wanted to.
Hannah Witton
No, I like that as I like, rather than just like taking the sexual fantasy as a blueprint for what you then want to try in real life. Understanding like the themes throughout all of your fantasies, I love that.
Flo Perry
Well lots of people have sexual fantasies that like can't be, or wouldn't be safe, or they don't want to actually create because -
Hannah Witton
Or aren't possible because it's about like banging in space, or on Mars, or involves aliens.
Flo Perry
So, how does space make you feel? Where can you bang that kind of feels like banging in space?
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. Where, in water?
Flo Perry
Yeah, maybe?
Hannah Witton
I don't know.
Flo Perry
I don't know. I have no space fantasies.
Hannah Witton
No. Well, not yet. Do you watch Big Mouth.
Flo Perry
Yes, I love Big Mouth. I've just finished season two. Absolutely obsessed.
Hannah Witton
Same! Yeah, Missy, she's got all of her space fantasies.
Flo Perry
Yeah, she's very in control in her space fancies, isn't she. She's the captain.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, she's driving the ship.
Flo Perry
She's driving the ship.
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Flo Perry
Then like Andrew and Nathan what's his face.
Hannah Witton
Nathan Fillion.
Flo Perry
They're like her subordinates.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
So that's quite interesting. If I was Missy, maybe that's the kind of thing I'd be thinking about.
Hannah Witton
What role are you playing in your fantasy?
Flo Perry
Yeah, maybe she wants.
Hannah Witton
How many people are involved in your fantasies?
Flo Perry
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Is it always like you and one other person, or they're like other people around too? Who?
Flo Perry
I can just actually hear my cat doing a wee in the other room, it's very distracting.
Hannah Witton
Just always thinking about your pussy
Flo Perry
Yeah, totally. This exactly the kind of thing you should be thinking about.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Flo Perry
Not the cat peeing
Hannah Witton
The sexual fantasies, and how you can use them, or maybe not use them.
Flo Perry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
How do you feel about sex toys? Are you a sex toy fan? Or -
Flo Perry
Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean yeah, I'm in lesbian relationships, for most of my life. I'm currently in a lesbian relationship. Obviously, I'm a big fan of sex toys. That's kind of thing you do, like two months into lesbian relationship be like okay, you show me mine, I'll show you yours. We'll see what we got that we like don't use that much, maybe I like that one.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Do you ever be like, I'm not a fan of that colour, though. Like everything has -
Flo Perry
I'm not that fussed.
Hannah Witton
No, colour doesn't matter.
Flo Perry
Yeah, we do have like, you know favourites and non favourites. It's like, oh we're at my house, we have to use this one. But yeah, there's not about colour.
Hannah Witton
Shape, size. Oooo, hello, the cat is really getting involved now. Please don't press any buttons.
Flo Perry
You just sit right here.
Hannah Witton
I love it.
Flo Perry
Well, sorry to touch the table.
Hannah Witton
Oh, no, it's fine. Like a man trying to insert themselves into a conversation.
Flo Perry
A big, white, man.
Hannah Witton
Oh. Well, I think this is a lovely place to end it, with Casper hanging out with us. Thank you so much.
Flo Perry
Thank you for letting me on your podcast.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What do you want people to know about the book, final little thing.
Flo Perry
Erm, it's out now. It's hopefully quite funny.
Hannah Witton
It's funny, can confirm.
Flo Perry
So many pictures of boobs it, you wouldn't believe.
Hannah Witton
Lots of boobs.
Flo Perry
And it's called How To Have Feminist Sex: A Fairly Graphic Guide.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Thanks so much.
Flo Perry
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast