From Purity Culture to Sex Positive Christianity with Brenda Marie Davies (God Is Grey) | Transcript
Content warnings for mentions of conversion therapy, rape culture, and eating disorders.
Find the episode shownotes here!
Brenda Marie Davies
I know a lot of Christian men that have had disrespectful sex. They never called the women back because they're like, well, she's not my wife. You know there's even teachers that will say that, like women are disrespecting themselves when they dress a certain way or they are, they're willing to be sexual with you. So we're primed to believe any woman that's down to even have sex with you is already a jezebel, already doesn't deserve your tender loving care in those situations.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hi, everyone, welcome back to Doing It. I am so excited about this episode. I feel like I say that every week, but hey, I get to pick the guests and I'm excited about all of them. But this week, I'm chatting to Brenda Marie Davies, aka God is Grey. I found the God is Grey YouTube channel recently, when I was down some YouTube rabbit hole. I have no memory of how I got there, but I'm so pleased that I did because Brenda's content is just so uplifting and so reassuring to see. She is a YouTuber, podcaster, and writer, she's just finished the manuscript for her first book, and she champions sex positive, intellectual, and LGBTQ plus affirming Christianity. We talk about so much in this episode, from Brenda's upbringing as a casual Catholic, and then moving into Evangelicalism and purity culture, and how she then became the sex positive Christian that she is today. We talk about masturbation, pleasure, and hookup culture. And what Brenda calls her trampage in her 20s.
Just a quick content warning for some things that are mentioned in this episode, but not gone into in huge detail; conversion therapy, rape culture, and eating disorders.
Other than some of my mates at uni, I've never really spoken to Christians about sex, and sex positivity. As someone who is an atheist and most of my sex positive network, shall we say, is also atheist. But it was really great to get that sex positive Christian perspective on a lot of these things, like purity culture, and I really hope that you enjoy this episode. Just so you know, next week is actually going to be the last episode of season two, and then there'll be a q&a episode. So keep your eyes peeled on our social media for where you can ask those questions. But without further ado, here's the episode.
Hello, Brenda, God is Grey. I'm so excited to chat with you. How you doing?
Brenda Marie Davies
I am very excited to chat with you as well. I love your content, and I love talking about sex positivity and Christianity.
Hannah Witton
Oh, amazing. This is going to be like a mutual like fangirling experience.
Brenda Marie Davies
I know, right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and nerding out about sex positivity and stuff. So I'm curious, just to start off with what does God is Grey mean?
Brenda Marie Davies
So what I say, which is what I believe, is that God, whatever word you subscribe to that, God resides in absolute truth, and black and white, I do believe in absolute truths in in the world. However, on planet Earth, we are stuck here contending with the grey. A lot of evangelicals, fundamentalists, have resided in this very black and white space and this is how I was raised when I got into evangelicalism. So it's just like the Bible is very clear, you can hang your hat on certain scriptures, etc. And it doesn't leave any room for actually discerning specific situations or discerning your sexuality in a healthy way. Because life is never black and white. It's always in this grey area. And that's what my channel is all about, facing those issues from a religious lens and seeing what we can glean from the grey area.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm into that, like the humanity of it, I guess, and the reality of it as well. It's like, hey, this is actually the world that we live in, let's not ignore all of these different human experiences. So how do you, well, how do sex positivity and LGBTQ plus acceptance align with your Christianity? And like, have they always done that? Or has that been like a bit of a journey for you?
Brenda Marie Davies
Uh, no, it's been such a journey. And I always tell people I was raised casual Catholic, which meant that we kind of went to church on holidays and then and then on like, guilty Sundays, probably, someone would drag us there.
Hannah Witton
Okay, I was raised, casual Jew then. Maybe even more casual than that.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, you're just like, this is my religion, but you know, whatever, we're not running to church every Sunday. And I felt like my faith at the time was very intuitive. I really was resonant with the idea of a higher power. When people say, why Jesus? I just say, he resonates so deeply with me, especially his original name, Yeshua. There's something
Hannah Witton
Oooo, I've never even heard that.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, it's beautiful. Whenever I'm in a meditative state, and things are crazy, I just say Yeshua, Yeshua. And it's just so beautiful to me, because so many of the things that evangelicalism brought to us were these negative connotations to all of these words. And, you know, if I'm happy to speak specifically about Christianity, but also I hope this conversation isn't alienating to non Christians, because there really are so many semantics like I say, God, or Jesus, and you may say, the universe, and a lot of Christians will even say that's blasphemous, like, you have to say the name of God, etc. But I recognise that there's so many triggers within these words, because even the concept of Father God can be really triggering to people. If you had kind of a crappy father, or an abusive father,
Hannah Witton
Right, okay.
Brenda Marie Davies
So I see, you know, I keep encouraging people to see the divine, I like to call it as a lover. That's kind of an entity that you can relate to, is someone that actually really loves you deeply and profoundly instead of all of these words that that might trigger you or give you like, predisposed ideas to what I'm talking about.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Brenda Marie Davies
You know, obviously, in not only evangelicalism, but a lot of different sects of Christianity, we have long been saying that LGBTQ, we used to say that being gay was a sin. And now it's kind of gotten slightly more glossy and slightly more inclusive, and that they say, being gay isn't a sin, the act of homosexuality is a sin. And -
Hannah Witton
I've heard that
Brenda Marie Davies
Right. And they, I cannot stand it because there's certain disclaimers, like they'll say, Jesus loves the sinner, hates the sin. And what I'm trying to get Christians to realise is that that does not bring any comfort to an LGBTQ person. No one is like, oh, God hates this fundamental, inherent part of me. He hates it, but he loves me. Like, there's no such thing as that, you can't have both of those things simultaneously. Either God loves you or he hates you. And that is the sense that LGBTQ people get from that kind of rhetoric. And then as far as not acting out on homosexuality, that means that we are imposing celibacy on a huge group of our population and just expecting them to swallow it. Even in the Bible -
Hannah Witton
Yeah and that not affect them anyway and yeah, and not allow them to be like healthy and happy human beings.
Brenda Marie Davies
No, and that's why to me, sex positivity and Christianity is what I would call like sexual integrity. And the main thing that we have done, as evangelicals, is compartmentalise people. I kept saying, like, I either need to have God and reject my sexuality, or have sexuality and reject God. And it took me over a decade to realise that those things were never meant to be mutually exclusive, that all it did was compartmentalised me, caused me to go into some dark seedy sexual experiences, because I was not residing in my body. And, you know, Christianity is about vilifying your flesh and your heart. But from my perspective, God gave us these bodies to reside in on this earth for a reason, and we're supposed to honour them, not ignore every cue they're giving us.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And if you getting horny, listen to that. It's a sign.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yep!
Hannah Witton
So what kind of like helps you along that journey of realising that sex positivity could align and did make sense in your Christianity. I don't know if this is a good place to bring up your like what you call your -
Brenda Marie Davies
Trampage.
Hannah Witton
Trampage in your 20s
Brenda Marie Davies
This, this is the perfect place to bring up the trampage, you're right.
Hannah Witton
I cannot wait to hear about this.
Brenda Marie Davies
No, so basically, in Christianity, we're given this concept of purity. And everything is this dichotomy of black and white, so you're either pure or impure and all of that is balanced upon whether or not you're a virgin, which now we know is a social construct. But you know, for the sake of the conversation, let's pretend virginity exists, because we as -
Hannah Witton
And this is way more on women as well.
Brenda Marie Davies
Oh, yeah. Oh my goodness. Yes. And you know, To talk to my friend Matthias Roberts, he is he is an LGBTQ Christian who went to conversion therapy for years and has struggled so much. But he said growing up, he was always taught that women had to cover their bodies and men had to cover their eyes. So men are these insatiable beasts that just want to you know, fuck everything that comes their way, and women are responsible as gatekeepers. We're supposed to be these like sexless pure beings that are, we actually say women need to protect the purity of men.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Brenda Marie Davies
And what that means is we're dressing in a certain way to not arouse them, stir them up.
Hannah Witton
Tempt them.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, exactly. And, of course, you can, I'm sure very see how, very easily see how that leads to rape culture. I know so many people who blamed their own sexual assaults on what they were wearing, because this is what we were taught, we're supposed to protect the male gaze from our tempting bodies. So yeah, that all leaves out the element that women are super horny too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah!
Brenda Marie Davies
And that men want relationship and connection and you know, sensuality as much as women. Like it messes up both, or all, sexes profoundly in that, in that school of thought. So for me, I was this casual Catholic, but then when I was 12 years old, I started going to an evangelical church, which is so tragic, because that's of course, when you're really starting to develop your, you're puberty, etc.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Was that because you moved, or just your parents moved church or like, what?
Brenda Marie Davies
No I, I went on my own and really what drew me there, ironically enough, was the fact that there would be cute boys there.
Hannah Witton
The reason behind everything that I did at that age.
Brenda Marie Davies
Of course, so yeah, I was a nerd in high school. All of my friends were having their first kisses. No one was kissing me. And a friend invited me to her youth group and she she even sold it that way. She was like, there's so many cute boys there, and I was like, hell yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, I love this.
Brenda Marie Davies
And of course, they have to be nice to you, because they're Christians. So they can't just ignore you, like they do in high school.
Hannah Witton
Ah, interesting.
Brenda Marie Davies
Then the total plot twist is that you're attracted to all of these people you're seeing and then they're like, by the way, you can't touch each other, and you have to save yourself for marriage, and I was told that God cries when I masturbate. So they created this whole fearful rhetoric around just the idea of our sexuality even blooming. It was like, they caught us at this formative moment, and said, okay, now you have to keep all of that completely at bay, until this one magical day where you walk down an aisle in a white dress, and you live happily ever after, and you have a million orgasms.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah. And of course -
Hannah Witton
Lucky person who that happens for, you know.
Brenda Marie Davies
I know. So, I mean, there's so so much dysfunction that we can get into that that leads to but for me, you know, I was, the reason I fell for it is because I had this deep, profound, genuine experience with the divine on my own. And all it was was they told me that that pure connection that I had to the divine, that that being that I was communicating with, cries when I masturbate and wants me to stay a virgin till marriage. And I was so profoundly in love with that divinity that I was willing to do anything it took to please God. And obviously, it's taken me forever to realise I was only pleasing men.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, human men.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, human men that were that were relaying these messages, who by the way were broken themselves and, and weren't really residing in a healthy place in these messages either. But I did get married young, I didn't make it all the way to the altar. I actually -
Hannah Witton
What? What? Scandal!
Brenda Marie Davies
I know, I know. Hey, we can hang up if you want. No, I was I mean, I've been open telling people I was masturbating since I was like five years old. So I was a very sexual being from the start, and so my sexuality got locked down in this way. It was very difficult for me and I made it until 22, but at that point, my just -
Hannah Witton
So you didn't masturbate, at all? Like, you, it actually made you stop?
Brenda Marie Davies
Girl, no.
Hannah Witton
No, just carry on, but with lots of shame.
Brenda Marie Davies
No, I am, I actually, thank God, survived that message because I was always -
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Brenda Marie Davies
I was intellectual about my faith at the same time. I fell for a lot of messages, but I was kind of like okay, wait, you guys want me to stay a virgin until marriage, but I can't give myself orgasms? I was like, show me it in the Bible. With that, with that you can only justify it by two verses and that is, or are actually three. So the first verse is that Onan, in the Old Testament, spilled his seed on the ground when God wanted him to impregnate a woman. So I was like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, I've had that one. Yeah.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah. Which is why they called masturbation onanism, at a certain time, when it was being vilified. And that verse I was like, alright, well, that doesn't apply to me. God obviously just wanted him to make a child, that has nothing to do with masturbation. I intellectually processed that on my own. The other one is from Song of Songs, which I don't know if you're familiar, is actually an erotic novel in the middle of the Bible, all about sex.
Hannah Witton
Oooo, no.
Brenda Marie Davies
It's beautiful. It's poetry about this man who is ravishingly in love with this woman and he talks about the mounds of her breasts being like mountains that he wants to climb and and the nectar of her body like spilling out onto him. It's, that is in the Bible.
Hannah Witton
Wow, that does sound erotic.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yes, it's incredibly erotic. So they also took a verse out of that, that said, women do not arouse or awaken love before it's so desires. But I intellectualise that too, because I was like, wait, why are they vilifying masturbation according to this verse in this very erotic book, like, I understood these things made no sense. And I proceeded in my masturbatory life without too much concern.
Hannah Witton
Fantastic.
Brenda Marie Davies
But I could only, that would only satiate me, you know, up until a certain point. I started really physically kind of losing my mind around 20, and I lasted till 22. I intended to have a one night stand, and sort of, quote, give away my virginity. And I felt so guilty about having done that, that I actually married the guy.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow. What a story.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah. Then I found that a couple years into it that he'd been cheating on me while we were dating. And that was wonderful because it totally pulled the rug out from under me and made me question everything that I'd been taught. Because evangelicalism really presents this very Cinderella, you'll live happily ever after kind of thing. Like if you're a good girl, if you just keep your legs closed, if you just say the right prayers, you're going to live happily ever after forever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you think if that hadn't have happened, it may have taken you longer?
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, absolutely. I, it horrifies me to imagine. I want to like send him a bushel of flowers and gratitude for having cheated on me and told me, because it really helped free me. It rocked my world. It made me question what I'd been taught, and it set me on a really powerful journey. But um, with sexuality, I talked about it as a pendulum. Because when I was up on one side of the pendulum, I was being perfect. I was saving myself for marriage. And when that broke, that was my husband telling me what happened, I you don't like even keel, go to the middle centre yourself and have a really healthy sexual ethic, you swing all the way to the other side.
Hannah Witton
I see. I feel like I've just been pretty much hovering around the middle of my entire life. So I like, these stories. I'm just like, oh, my days.
Brenda Marie Davies
I mean, I'm I'm fascinated to hear from you too, what what that feels like. I love talking to people that were brought up in a sex positive way, especially now that I have a child, because it's just like, we are meant to be in the in that middle ground. Like you you mess up and you have a one night standing, you feel crappy about it, but you go home and you process that, you don't think you're going to hell. You just, you know that health of realising sometimes you'll do the right thing, sometimes to do the wrong thing, that centred approach is really what I'm advocating for.
Hannah Witton
I think it's like lots of mini ups and downs that you build resilience for. So that it's you know, you have this understanding of everything is temporary, and you have the strength to you know, move on from heartbreak or whatever it might be, but then also you have the confidence to, you know, set your boundaries and know what you want. Like, I don't know, I feel very grateful that somewhere along the lines, I've been able to scrapple all these things together, but I couldn't say where I learned it from, you know, like, it obviously wasn't one source.
Brenda Marie Davies
Oh, that's so beautiful. I love to hear that. So happy for you.
Hannah Witton
Me too, now that I think about it. I'm just like, actually, despite all of the ups and downs, they weren't like, like you're describing, a pendulum swing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Hannah Witton
It was like a Disneyland roller coaster, you know, does that, you know, not too hard and heavy.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, that's how it should be. Breaks my heart too, that so many Christian parents are not only resistant to comprehensive sex education, like, they truly believe that if you teach a child, not a child, if you you know, if a teenager is aware that anal sex exists, they're just going to run out and do it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Brenda Marie Davies
Whereas all statistics show comprehensive delays sex by at least two years, like, Christians have this, this idea that ignorance is bliss.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like mistaking ignorance for innocence, or the other way around, but you can like have the knowledge and yet still like, you know, be that innocent child.
Brenda Marie Davies
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
But still know all of that stuff, or you know, as much as they want to know at that time. Yeah, but yeah, so what what happened after you found out your husband was cheating on you, then? I feel like this is now like a weird gossip episode.
Brenda Marie Davies
No, it's fine. I, well this is what I call my trampage season. I just, I remember talking to my friend, Chelsea, and I was like, I'm not going to count how many men I'm with, I'm not going to think twice about any decision because it's like the concept of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I just got rid of all of it and that meant, you know, so much haphazard decision making, so many instances where I look back and I must have hurt someone for not really respecting them as another body in that room that deserves honour and care as much as I would have. It definitely got me into a lot of very, me too-ish situations because I had no concept of my self worth outside of being a virginal Christian. They really like hang their hat on the fact that you're a good girl if you have never had any sexual activity and is you, and that means you're a Christian. So when both of those things are lost, trying to figure out your identity, or why you deserve respect, or why you would even be allowed or permitted to consider keeping yourself healthy or safe in a sexual situation, doesn't feel like an option. Because even in Christianity, I always used condoms, but a lot of Christians don't because they see buying condoms as premeditating sin.
Hannah Witton
Oh, right.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, so there's there's so little attentiveness and care to -
Hannah Witton
Sexual health.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, sexual health, and how to have sexual experiences that are that are autonomous and respectful of both parties and are mutually, you know, beneficial. So it, it was agony and ecstasy.
Hannah Witton
I love that, that sounds like a business contract. This will be a mutually beneficial.
Brenda Marie Davies
Dan Savage says, like, never let anyone leave your bedroom worse than you found them. They always need to leave better than you found them. And -
Hannah Witton
I like that.
Brenda Marie Davies
And if you're Christian person, your ethics should be at least that. But on the male side, for example, men are taught that they're waiting for their wife. So I know a lot of Christian men that have had disrespectful sex, they never called the women back because they're like, well, she's not my wife. So why should I value her? Even if it wasn't that blatantly stated, the indoctrination and the message received was like, if she's not your wife. You know, there's even teachers that will say that, like women are disrespecting themselves when they dress a certain way, or they are they're willing to be sexual with you. So we're primed to believe any woman that's down to even have sex with you is already a jezebel, already doesn't deserve your tender loving care in those situations.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's the classic Madonna-whore complex.
Brenda Marie Davies
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, definitely.
Hannah Witton
Our favourite.
Brenda Marie Davies
But it was agony and ecstasy. Like I always like, I want to let people know. I am anti hookup culture. I will say that.
Hannah Witton
Oh, interesting, yeah.
Brenda Marie Davies
I, but I guess it's the way I define it. I see hookup culture as as a, as very selfish of like getting yours. Whereas if you have someone that is intuiting other people's needs and feelings and and going forth with integrity, you know you can be promiscuous and and have integrity in your sexual situations. Although even that I think is difficult, because people are so sensitive sexually, you really do have to be careful that that no one is getting devastated due to your desire.
Hannah Witton
I think hookup culture is a real mixed bag where, I think because of the lack of comprehensive and sex positive education, it's more likely that encounters and hookup culture are potentially going to be negative or selfish or just like not, you know, nourishing for anyone. Whereas, but I do think it is possible to have like compassionate and really fulfilling casual sex. But that takes a lot of work when you are raised in a sex negative culture.
Brenda Marie Davies
I completely agree. I completely agree, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, yeah, I feel like, yeah, my experience in like the single hookup land is, yeah, but a similar mixed bag, where sometimes it was just like, just need to bang, there's a person. And other times where it was like this really amazing, like, casual, mutually respectful, you know, experience. So yeah, it's it's really mixed.
Brenda Marie Davies
It is, it's complicated. And we need to empower people with like, age appropriate, comprehensive sex ed from the time they're small, so that when they're out in the world having these experiences, they're, they're being safe, and they're being respectful of their bodies and the bodies that they're experiencing in those situations.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, 100%, 100%. I got some questions for you on our Instagram. And there were a lot, so I want to make sure that the people's questions are answered. And some of them are really interesting. So this one caught my eye. Someone said, I want to know a Christians opinion about religious kink and roleplay.
Brenda Marie Davies
Erm, super about it.
Hannah Witton
Love that. There you go, you've got permission. Christians all into it, so go forth.
Brenda Marie Davies
No, I think that, um, I think kink is is such a beautiful thing to consider. So many people don't realise that our kinks and fetishes are developed, you know, around six years old. So my and I get turned on if I smell a certain kind of leather jacket, or -
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Brenda Marie Davies
Like that terrible Old Spice aftershave, there's obviously there's obviously some childhood things going on with that. Um, but you know, that said, sex, I truly believe was meant to be so mutually playful and fun, we've made it so dark and heavy. Like, obviously, you can make profound love to somebody. But then there's also this concept of like, when are adults able to play make believe? Like, I just miss busting out my Barbies, and like playing with my Barbies, but as adults, you know, I'd be considered a crazy person if I did that. So, I mean, that's no offence to anyone that plays Barbies. I totally understand, I want to do the same thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Brenda Marie Davies
But like, for me, um, you know, it's a chance to play, it's as a chance to let go of your day, and, and that's another thing people are, you know, get scared of BDSM. But the BDSM rules of consent and communication are some of the most impactful, important, like list of questions that I've ever read that someone would be able to communicate and and people don't understand, too, the more you communicate before a sexual experience, the more freedom you actually have in that experience. It's not limiting. It's the opposite, because you're both on the same page. So that said, I'm just like, play away. If you guys are on the same page, play and a lot of times psychologically, especially if you have a religious kink, it's like, you're you're playing out some things that are just in there psychologically, and you're just dragging them out and using them for play, I think that's beautiful.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, as long as everyone's having a good, consensual time. No, no judgement here. Someone asked, how do you break a stigma of sexual exploration/solo sex with a significant other who's raised very Christian?
Brenda Marie Davies
Ooo, that that is so difficult, I talked to a lot of people with that issue. The thing is a person can't be, they can't be pushed into being convinced that everything's okay. The indoctrination is so deep, and it really takes so long to break free. Like I said, it took me over a decade and my prayer is that the work I do would help younger people not get trapped in these things to begin with. But if your partner is already experiencing that, they really need so much tender love and care to get through it. And I would just recommend some really profound resources that I have found, which is Linda Kay Klein's book, Pure. She investigated the results of purity culture, and how it caused ED, vaginismus, all of these terrible effects. Just that guilt and shame that surrounds sexuality, and I think just reading that book, as a religious person, could help someone feel they're not alone, and they're not crazy. So I would recommend that as a good start, although also with the caveat of letting people know it can be very triggering. It actually is a short easy read, but it took me like a week to read because I kept crying while I was reading it.
Hannah Witton
But I think that's one of the beautiful things about using books as resources for overcoming something personal. Is that you, it's private experience. So you can like read it in your own time. You can do it in however many chunks that is necessary, you know, and really pace yourself and, you know, there's no external pressure. It's just you in that book. So I always love a good book resource suggestion.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, that's awesome. Also, I'm putting out just this week, a couple videos on embodiment and trusting yourself. So that is really important. And then as far as embodiment there's an author named Jamie Lee Finch, she wrote a book called You Are Your Own. And Dr. Tina Sellers wrote a book called Christian or God, Sex and the Conservative Christian Church or something, I think I'm getting that right, Dr. Tina Sellers.
Hannah Witton
I will get these links from you later so we can put them in the show notes for people to access.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, but those books both talk about the history of why we were taught these falsehoods, because to remove indoctrination from your spirit, you have to understand where they came from. Cuz you can't just disconnect someone to something that is that deeply embedded, you you kind of need a reason and then an understanding of how we were lied to before you can really begin freeing yourself. So those books will to walk your partner through how they were indoctrinated and why it's wrong.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's great. I'm, like, tempted to check those books out as well. Someone has asked, I feel so awkward and inexperienced for my age, because of purity culture. How do I become comfortable with my body and sexuality with others?
Brenda Marie Davies
Oh, yeah, it's so difficult. I mean, I'm sure you would agree with me here. Masturbation is such a beautiful place to start. And I know that's so vilified in Christianity, but trust me, I have a video on masturbation, if you want to go watch it too. There is really no biblical, biblically sound reason to talk us out of that. And there's been so much vilification to have pleasure, and especially women's pleasure. So, to me, the greatest argument is that God created us with a clitoris, which serves literally no other purpose except for pleasure. So to me -
Hannah Witton
There it is!
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, it's such a lie that we don't deserve pleasure, like we are obviously made for pleasure, we're born into that capability. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
And also just the fact that like, like you said, you started masturbating young. And I didn't, but like, I hear so many stories of other people who were like children when they started, but they didn't know what it was at the time. It was just like, oh, if I touch myself here, it feels good, and if I hump this thing, it feels good. Like it, like you were saying before, it's playful, and it's pleasurable. And we get really scared by like, putting this, it's sexualized, like, label on things. So I think yeah, like starting from a place where it is as close to as you can get to just what it sensationally and physically feels like, but obviously, there is so much cultural baggage when it comes to sex and pleasure. And it's, it's so difficult, even for people who aren't raised religious, but, you know, with, you know, we're still live in a sex negative society. Being able to like, strip all of that away and just enjoy it for what the sensations are that are happening in your body. Like, that's the, you know, that's the aim.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, I also did a podcast with this sex educator named Isabella Frappier and we talked about pleasure, and she talks about being intentional about your masturbation because a lot of us that have shame around pleasure will run into the shower and get off really quickly or just like, just purposely shut off our mind, so that we can just get off and move on with our day. And I think it makes such a difference to be intentional and to say, this might be right or wrong. I, Linda Kay Klein and I also share this experience of kind of asking God to stay out of the bedroom. Like I used to even mindfully like before I walked into a sexual situation be like God, you stay out here. I'm about to, about to do something terrible that will offend you, stay out of the room. And a huge change that I made, that Linda made, was to say, never mind, come in here. Because
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice.
Brenda Marie Davies
I want to know what you think about this. I want I want to light a candle, be mindful, and and really embody like, embrace the fact that I have a body, sense that my body is telling me, recognise when shame or fear come out. Shame and fear, biblically are laid out as the enemies of God, like the opposite of love is fear. So if there's fear or shame around your sexuality that already is toxic and wrong and not aligned with God. So a part of that process is going to be removing those emotions or recognising them when they come up and recognising that if God is love, that's not the way you're going to feel. Like, for example, when I'm navigating, I mean, I'm in a relationship now, but when I was navigating, you know, being in sexual situations with people, with integrity, I keep saying like, screw purity, that's gone, that needs to die, that needs to burn in a trash fire, I hate purity culture, get rid of purity, and then we're embracing sexual integrity. So in sexual integrity, a lot of Christians are afraid to lose the rules, like you can't, you know, have anal, you can't sleep with this person, whatever. If you reject all those rules and start intuiting your body. From there, it will become clear, like I remember, I slept with this guy and the whole time, I felt like he wasn't going to respect me in the aftermath. Like, he just presented himself as safe, but but my body was like, no, I'm not buying it. And on that, I did end up sleeping with him anyway. But in the aftermath, I just welcomed God in that conversation. I was like, okay, where did I go wrong? And what would I like to improve next time? Kind of like what you're saying Hannah, like, are you just allowed to ask yourself these questions and the answer I got was like, don't you remember your body giving you that signal? And that just helps you steer the next situation into a more positive, you know, term on your own terms.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, when you mentioned about like, that, kind of like sexual intuition. It really reminded me of a couple of times on this podcast, actually, where comparing sex and food has come up, in a sense that, like, sex is a physical thing and also, like in terms of food, we physically need it to survive. But actually, culturally, and there's all of these messages around sex and food that create messages around shame, and fear, like you said. But then there's this huge campaign for like, intuitive eating, to try and like, rid people of that, this is a good food, this is a bad food, and like, you know, you're a bad kind of person if you eat these things, you know what I mean? Like, there's just so much weight on them. And I'm like, Ah, there needs to be like, an intuitive eating movement for sex.
Brenda Marie Davies
I really love that. And it's funny you say that, because I did experience anorexia for a few years in my early 20s. And I felt the same way about abstinence, like, sex, in some ways is not as required as food. Like, obviously, you'll die without food. You might not die without sex. However, our planet would die without sex.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we would all die.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah. So in a way, it's like, yeah, maybe this isn't essential, essential, like you will die, but it is essential enough that the entire planet would die. So if you consider that as the level of importance, and then when you are abstaining, really against your will due to your indoctrination, it's it just creates so much disarray and so much disembodiment. And like you said, just labelling things as wrong and right versus being intuitive. Like you said, I love that, it's beautiful.
Hannah Witton
There we go. We can we can coin it now or someone will tell us like, hey, already exists, this is what it's called. And we'll be like, great, we're on board. So we kind of touched on purity culture a bit and as you are someone who creates YouTube videos, and are very vocal about your Christianity, and there's also a lot of very vocal purity culture youtubers online, how do you deal with one, that there are people like preaching this on YouTube to lots of young, vulnerable people? But then also, how do you deal with the criticism that you've received from other Christians?
Brenda Marie Davies
I really see all criticism as an opportunity for conversation. So I have this friend that talks about how truth stands on its own, and it doesn't need to be battled or won. It's just truth, objectively. And the thing I've noticed about a lot of evangelical Christians that come after me, is they refuse to get in conversation with me, they block me immediately when I invite them into conversation before I make a video. They refuse to have that conversation. And that, to me, shows a clear weakness in their doctrine, because I'm like, are you not implying that you cannot battle for this supposedly, quote, truth that you are perpetuating? Are you not worried that your doctrine will fall when challenged by intellect, history, you know, psychology, the truth of sexuality. Christians really have, for a long time, made this us versus them thing with what they call, quote, culture. So anything outside of Christianity will be culture. So they'll be like, oh, culture wants you to believe that psychology is the way to go or culture wants you to believe that masturbating is okay.
Hannah Witton
I've never heard that before is it being like this umbrella thing called culture. I'm just like, that means nothing.
Brenda Marie Davies
It means nothing, and it means everything, it's the thing that -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly.
Brenda Marie Davies
It can be used for literally anything. And if you're raising children, you can say, you know, you can't hang out with so and so because they're Buddhist, and they'll introduce you to culture. Like, there's so much embracing of ignorance and I think it's so foolish because if you raise a couple of kids, and you tell them the world was made in seven days, and masturbating is a sin, and and you'll live happily ever after if you save yourself for marriage, and any of those concepts crumble, as they will, because the truth stands, but these lies fall, then then you have on your hands a child that's like, why didn't you tell me all of the science around evolution and why it's real? Or climate change and why it's real? And then you have them questioning their entire doctrine, which starts crumbling around them. And I think it's the exact opposite and it's such a lie to me, the majesty of God is illuminated even more, when you see science, physics, all of these beautiful things in the world, psychology, all the advancements we have in our intellects. These to me are just reflections of our Creator and when embraced, you see that they actually reflect what we believe even stronger. So all of that said, there's just so much to be said for me about these people not wanting to speak to me, I don't think they can defend what they're saying, in truth, because it's not the truth, and it doesn't stand when tested.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that sounds like you've got like this really great grip on that criticism, because you have this conviction, I guess, like that's, that's the thing that you can hold on to, like, not let that criticism necessarily affect you. I definitely feel like I always sit in this place of like, because I don't think I believe in like a, like, a truth. So that's so it's just really interesting to hear that because and also like your comments about like that the debate thing. I feel like I've sat on the other side of that when it comes to like anti feminists wanting to debate feminists. And I'm just like, I just don't even want to get into that, because it's a waste of my time.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, I mean, not everyone is called to challenge the system. I would tell people that too. Like, if you need to walk away, just walk away. You don't have to do this work of convincing people
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Brenda Marie Davies
Of what you're learning on your own. And another, the real edge that I have Hannah, is that I was these people. And I think so many of them don't understand that. They think I'm some, you know, they've accused me of trying to promote some hipster Jesus that's just down for everyone having sex with everyone and I'm like, it is so much deeper than that, and that is so patently untrue with me. I, for example, was arguing with my biology teacher when I was 15 against evolution. I made a paper mache, nine months pregnant woman with a gun to her belly, and called it Abortion for art class.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my goodness.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Brenda Marie Davies
So when I, when I see these.
Hannah Witton
You've been there, you've really been there.
Brenda Marie Davies
I have been there and I understand the indoctrination, I understand the fear of letting it go, and why it's so hard to let go. And and I have done the really hard work of ridding myself of that indoctrination and creating and cultivating a faith for myself that is honest and, and a faith that I see reflecting Jesus as he moved through this world with so much love and and respect of the worlds and the body. Like when the woman comes and breaks an alabaster jar of perfume over him, Dr. Tina Sellars argues that whether or not like Jesus is taught, like to be a virgin, and I don't see any proof of that. But beyond that, Dr. Tina says that whatever happened in that moment was maybe not an erotic experience, but it was absolutely a sensual experience, imagining this woman breaking a jar of perfume over Jesus's feet and washing his feet with her hair. Like, have you ever heard of anything more sensual and erotic than that?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Brenda Marie Davies
And everyone in his circle was horrified. Like if you read that passage, everyone around him, the Pharisees, his friends were like, this is a disgusting display. How are you making light like letting this happen? Because he was making love to this woman in public essentially. And he chastise them and said, she is doing the right thing. You are the ones that are wrong in this situation. So Jesus never vilified our bodies. I, I'm the crazy person that believes Jesus was a manifestation of God on earth. And by that, that, that means that the master of the universe that we're also terrified of actually resided in a human body, and actually experienced, and embraced the experience, of everything it was including death, to reside in a human body.
Hannah Witton
So God knows what it feels like to have an orgasm, maybe.
Brenda Marie Davies
I mean, I can't argue that scripturely, but would I be surprised?
Hannah Witton
Who knows what Jesus got up to behind closed doors, though.
Brenda Marie Davies
Who knows. We have that alabaster story for sure, and and whether or not that was erotic, it was sensual. And we have that.
Hannah Witton
We have that. Before we finish, I wanted to ask you about your book, because at the time of recording this, you've just finished writing the first manuscript.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Exciting! And this is kind of like a lot about your experience. I wanted to not take this away from you, but you gave this beautiful description of it in your email to me. You, you say is so funny. I love it.
Brenda Marie Davies
It's very sex, drugs, rock and roll and Jesus. Is that what you mean?
Hannah Witton
Yes. I love that description. I'm like, I'm hooked. Tell us a bit about it.
Brenda Marie Davies
Well, I'm actually so blessed because I've told other people that I wanted this book to be sex, drugs, rock and roll and Jesus, because that is my story. I moved to LA at 19, and, you know, I'm in this world of celebrity and wealth, and, you know, sexuality on this crazy level. And I wanted to portray that reality in my writing, and I was so honoured because my publisher accepted the manuscript and said, this is so sex, drugs, rock and roll and Jesus, and I was like, yes!
Hannah Witton
Is that gonna be the title?
Brenda Marie Davies
The title is On Her Knees.
Hannah Witton
Whoo. Oh, I love that. Because it's like praying, but also blowjobs.
Brenda Marie Davies
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Genius.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah. And it really is the journey that I went on of living in this compartmentalization, this fear, this agony, with my sexuality. And then it all culminates in the most abusive experience of my life, which really compelled me to finally realign my sexuality and my spirituality, and that's something I did right before I started God is Grey, two years ago. I was a sexual mess before then. So I've laid out all of my deepest, darkest secrets in this book, and I am so over the moon, excited to share it with everyone.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's gonna be a while though, I'm afraid, people.
Brenda Marie Davies
Yeah, we've got to wait like a year.
Hannah Witton
But I'm so excited for you. And I'm genuinely really excited to read it. Thank you, Brenda, so much. It's been an absolute joy chatting with you
Brenda Marie Davies
Vice versa. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. And thank you for being so open to being I've, wait, as a side note, some of the best sex I've ever had in my life was in London. These London boys.
Hannah Witton
Yes, London!
Brenda Marie Davies
I thought y'all were so uptight and prim and proper, but I was, I stand corrected.
Hannah Witton
What an amazing note to end this podcast on. Love London, love what you're doing, Thank you all so much for listening. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
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