How to Raise Sexually Healthy Children with Melissa Pintor Carnagey | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Melissa Carnagey
I would never want a young person to be experimenting in a less informed way, to where they receive the message or get the impression that sex has to be painful, that it has to be unpleasant, that it has to be forced, that it has to be non consensual.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hey everyone, welcome back to Doing It. I am so excited for this week's episode. I'm a big fan of this guest, I have been following her Instagram account for ages and just been learning so much stuff from it, and pretty sure I've been recommending it left, right and centre whenever I get the opportunity to. And that is the Sex Positive Families Instagram accounts, which is run by Melissa Pintor Carnagey.
In this episode Melissa talks about what sex positive families is, what they do, and how she got to where she is on her own personal sexual journey from a Catholic upbringing to running a sex positive organisation. We talked about a lot of the myths surrounding sex education and children, and actually why it is a good and positive and necessary things, what it means to raise sexually healthy children and what that looks like, how do you have conversations with your kids about sex positions, about orgasms. Melissa give some great examples of how to answer any questions from children, especially ones that may take you slightly by surprise. And we talk about how we're all on our own sexual journey, and so that includes parents. So a lot of the things that they might have learned, or experiences that they've had that influence their own opinions and thoughts around sex and relationships may be projected onto their children and how to recognise that and do the best we can basically. In this episode, we briefly touch on trauma and abortion, we talk about how to build trust with the young people in our lives, and how it's about preparing them, rather than preventing anything that can happen, and we have a lot of chats about recognising what is in our control and what is out of our control.
Also, I experimented a little for this episode, and I actually reached out to our audience on Instagram for any questions that you guys have. And boy did you come through! So I've asked Melissa, some of those questions as well. And maybe this is something that we can continue doing. So you guys can pose your own questions to my guests. Thank you so much for listening, and I hope that you enjoyed this episode.
Hello, Melissa, thank you so much for joining me all the way from Austin, Texas.
Melissa Carnagey
Hi! Thank you so much for having me.
Hannah Witton
I know I mentioned this in my email. But having spent a year of my childhood in Austin, it has like a very special place in my heart. So I think it means I immediately like you as well!
Melissa Carnagey
Aw, thank you. Yeah, no, it's so cool to learn that. Austin is quite a place and it continues to grow every year and so it's really cool, anytime I meet someone that's ever lived here or been here.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's a very special place. But I want to talk to you about Sex Positive Families which is, you know, your community, your business, your passion, your life. What, how, how did it start? And like, what is it? Do you want to give us a little lowdown about it.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, so Sex Positive Families is an organisation that provides education and resources and support, primarily to families, parents, youth and family serving professionals, caring adults, to help them raise sexually healthy children with every talk, because it's not just one conversation, and it's multiple conversations over the course of childhood that really shape the sexual health of young people. And having a strong foundation is really important in a lifetime of sexual health and safety.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Melissa Carnagey
And supporting a person's autonomy and liberation within their sexualities. And a lot of us adults, present day adults, especially those that find ourselves parenting, did not have that modelled for us, did not have that fostered for us, for many, many different reasons. And so, Sex Positive Families was bred out of that, out of my own personal experiences. I'm a parent, I have three amazing young people. My oldest is 21 now, she's a senior in college. And I have a 10 year old son and a six year old son. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So lots of different ages.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, absolutely lots of different ages and so I've been through all of the stages of trying to raise another human, and it's quite a journey. And yes, there are tonnes of books, you know, parenting books, and, and experts and all these things out there. But when, it's not until you get into it yourself and become, you know, a parent, place yourself in that role, that you really see just how important that role is, and just how challenging, just how rewarding, just the range of emotions and experiences throughout the journey. And so my own goal of doing that with attention to sexual health and raising children in a sex positive way, is what really influenced and motivated the platform of Sex Positive Families, and in particular with a focus on pleasure. Because raising -
Hannah Witton
Oh good.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, raising, especially a young person that has a vulva that identifies as a girl, as a woman in this world, that was really important to me early on, to make sure that she understood her body and felt affirmed in the experiences of her body. Because I knew ultimately that that could help her to stay safer, stay more connected, stay more attuned to her pleasure, and that that was important. And that if I have had that, so many things would have been different along my path.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, that all sounds amazing. And you mentioned about raising sexually healthy children. So what what is a sexually healthy child? What does that mean?
Melissa Carnagey
So sexually healthy means that a young person knows their body parts, and knows them in terms of their accurate names, not just nicknames or euphemisms, that they are aware of their bodies, that they have an understanding of other people's bodies, and especially as it relates to boundaries and consent, and that they know how to ask for and to accept and to receive the consent of others. Those things are really important to supporting the safety of a young person, and also that they can understand their inherent power and worthiness within their bodies, and are connected and attuned to their sexuality. And so these things that I'm mentioning, are all fostered over time. When we're born, we are born without insecurities, without projected norms or social norms.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true.
Melissa Carnagey
We come into the world really connected to ourselves, and we receive a lot of the messages and a lot of the socialisation and training that, most often, can disconnect us from ourselves and from our bodies. And so when a parent or family is raising young people with attention to their sexual health, and then they're helping to preserve and foster and continue that understanding, that connection, and that awareness, as opposed to kind of, you know, separating them from that. So -
Hannah Witton
What's something that parents and caring adults, because you mentioned that they probably weren't brought up in a sex positive household, it was very unlikely. So what can they do in order to be in a place where they are able and capable to deliver that kind of sex education, or have those kinds of conversations with children and young people? Because I feel like there's a lot of unlearning as well to do.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, that's really at the heart of it is parents being aware of that sexual health is a journey, it's not a destination, and if they have their own separate journey that they've been on. And being able to just kind of critically look at that and unpack that, and understand, what are the values? What are the beliefs? What are the messages? What's the education or lack thereof, that they have received along their path? When it comes to sex, bodies, relationships, consent, sexuality, what are those narratives and those scripts? And what are those things that they truly believe, and that they uphold, and what are those things that have not been serving them, or that they don't feel connected to? That also includes traumas, any sexual trauma, or consent violations, these kinds of things absolutely carry with us. There's not really such a thing as being like healed, and therefore no longer, you know, grappling with or dealing with trauma. It's -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Melissa Carnagey
So it's important that adults really take a look and regularly kind of take a look at their own sexual health and ways that they can nurture that and support that, so that they can be in a better position along the way to be able to mentor a young person along their sexual health journey.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. How did you get to that place? Like what kind of messages were you raised with when it came to sex? And then how did you come to where you are now? What was that journey like?
Melissa Carnagey
That's a great question. So I grew up in, so I'm black and Latinx, Puerto Rican and Mexican. And so I have a lot of Catholic influences and cultural messages that were rooted in religion. And the those religious beliefs were more sex negative and repressive and, so that definitely influenced the fact that I didn't have conversations that were sex positive, or conversations at all, when it came from my parents, when it came to bodies and sex. We had to like turn our heads whenever something sexual was on the television, and but they wouldn't mute it. And so you'd still hear like the sounds of pleasure and you're, and so you're kind of like, acting you're not, it doesn't affect you, or that it doesn't sound pleasing to you. And then, you know, there was never a discussion or an explanation about what the heck any of that was. It was just, you know, you're not allowed to do this, or participate in this, in anyway. So then I remember to, you know, masturbating and touching myself, I have memories that maybe around like, six or seven, you know, and I knew that those things had to be like a secret, I internalised shame around those things. And no one was talking to me about my body. So even when I started menstruation, which for me was in later high school, my younger sister had already started and my cousin that was living with us for a period of time who was younger had started, so it wasn't that my parents or an adult was helping me to understand this process or puberty.
Hannah Witton
It was your peers.
Melissa Carnagey
Right. So it was just a lot of silence around these things. And so what I found for myself was, I was super curious, like young people are. I was even more, that curiosity was heightened, because there was such silence and it was something that was being kept away from me. So I would watch real sex on HBO, I would sneak and, you know, try to find that information. This was pre the internet and pre porn on the internet.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And was that all by yourself? You had no one to like, discuss the things that you're finding with? Or is it something that you talked with friends about, or completely just your own thing?
Melissa Carnagey
So I had a cousin who lived in Chicago, and every summer, I would go to Chicago and spend, you know, a few months there. And I do remember us finding like my aunt's VHS tapes, like the porn and VHS tapes, and we would go down to the basement and sometimes, you know, we would watch them. And it's so it was really my cousin is my real, only real memory of someone that I could talk to. And I think probably, you know, little conversations might have happened in friend groups or peer groups. But it really was a lot more silence and a lot more secrecy and just me exploring and knowing that I had to keep these things a secret.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And when did you learn that it didn't have to be that way, and in fact, it probably shouldn't be that way?
Melissa Carnagey
Probably as an adult. Once I became a sexuality educator, myself, and then I really started to understand how these conversations could happen. And it's like, you know that this didn't serve you. And for me in particular, I went seeking out relationship and connection with a desperation, and so I experimented with having sex without really, it's like, I really didn't, like, you know, we really didn't know what I was doing, I just knew that I wanted to experience what it appeared to be pleasure and connection.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's almost like by doing it, it was your only access to learning about it.
Melissa Carnagey
Right and, and, you know, so many fails in terms of like, you know, like, so I have such a passion when I teach, so I teach sex ed also to youth and adults. But when I teach sex ed to young people, I definitely again and bringing a sex positive lens, because I would, I would never want a young person to be experimenting in a less informed way, to where they, they receive the message or get the impression that sex has to be painful, that it has to be unpleasant, that it has to be forced, that it has to be non consensual. All of those things are avoidable when young people, or people in general, are given tools, and knowledge, and awareness, and understanding about their own bodies, about the bodies of others, and about safety, and communication. All of these things can help people to have more pleasurable, safer, experiences. So yeah, I you know, I ended up my daughter at a young age. So I conceived when I was 17 and so the journey of being a young parent, I know was very much influenced by the fact that I did not have anyone talking to me about sexuality, sexual health, sex, my body, any of that stuff. And so I've been able to do differently for my children, and my daughter in particular, who's now an adult and it's proven, through research, but also through my own lived experience, that when you give young people the resources, the knowledge, the support, in a shame free way, along the path they can make informed choices. And so she's, she's been able to write her her story with greater confidence and to live a life that is meaningful to her. And for her that's, that's saying no, I, you know, she didn't want to have sex at an early age. She didn't want to have children at an early age. And so she's been able to set her own goals and kind of see them through.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's fantastic. Because I have also heard that the research does show that, like you said, when you provide young people with shame free, sex positive, education, they tend to delay their first sexual experiences. And that brings me on to as well, like, what are some of the most damaging myths that are out there when it comes to sex ed and children? So for instance, like we if we teach our kids about sex, and they're all gonna go off and have sex? Obviously, the research shows that it's actually the opposite.
Melissa Carnagey
Absolutely, yeah. I would say that one is, number one, that, that people think that by talking about these topics, that it's going to increase a young person's desire or interest in doing these things. And that that's completely untrue, and it's another, I know there's like that analogy about fast and furious and, you know, when no people you know, they're constantly exposed to all sorts of messages that don't have anything to do with sex, but that are about violence. And it doesn't mean, you know, if they go and watch Avengers, you know, they're not going to go and, you know, go off and act out, you know, that direct kind of violence on to other people. That's not, there's not that, like direct correlation like that. So when it comes to sex, and, and bodies and education around those things, it just allows young people to be more aware. And it is telling young people that, wow, you know, I trust that when you are given information and tools that you're able to do something with that, you're able to shape your, your next steps and your behaviour. When we keep that away from them, we're sending them the message that we don't trust them. We don't think they're capable of applying information and skills for, you know, their their own wellbeing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, we're also saying to ourselves as adults that I don't trust that I can support my young people in their path. And so try to help parents understand that at the heart of it, is we're sending a message of a lack of trust and it doesn't feel good to not be trusted by other people, especially people that we care about or that care about us or that we have a relationship with. And so is that really the message we want to be sending? And so parents really being congruent with their values and their beliefs and then their actions is, is a really important piece, you know, to all of this.
Hannah Witton
What are some other obstacles that you've come across, like from parents maybe or from outsiders even?
Melissa Carnagey
I would say the, the reality is that all this can be very triggering.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Melissa Carnagey
There are so many adults who've experienced unsafe situations along their path, whether it was in their childhood, or in their adolescence, or as early adults, and many people haven't received support around those things. Many people are walking around with undisclosed traumas. And so you can, prior to parenting, you know, you, there are ways that you can think that you're okay, because you're not talking about it, or, or maybe you did some therapy sessions, and then okay, I'm good. And especially if your trauma occurred in childhood, often, if you become a parent, then when you start raising children, and they start approaching the ages that your trauma might have happened, then that's when that new, heightened, triggering experience can happen, in an unexpected way. Even for people that feel like they've healed from that, or that they addressed that, or that they got support for whatever that was.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Melissa Carnagey
It gets really triggered, and kind of retraumatised, and because our society is so silent, and there's so much stigma around all of this, it can be hard for parents to easily kind of see or identify supports when they start to experience that. And so it can lead to extremes in parenting, either them feeling like, they have to be hyper, you know, protective, or over vigilant with their young person, so that this, so that trauma doesn't happen to their young person. Or sometimes they may take an extreme other end, where they're, like, just overly kind of loose or overly open. So just helping parents to kind of find that real, like middle ground for the way in which they want to help support and mentor and, and it's really not about prevention, because prevention is still rooted in the idea of control. We can't control the outcomes of our young people, or of another human being, but we can be of influence, we can prepare other people or young people for experiences, and for success within those experiences.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that preparation is a really interesting point. I'm curious, if so if you're a parent, or a caring adult, who has experienced trauma, what is the appropriate, like, approach to maybe disclosing that to your child?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And is that something that you encourage people do? or, do you know what I mean, like do you involve your own children in your own journey? Like, where's the line between you supporting them and, but also, like telling them about your own stuff?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah. So it can be a really individual thing. So first of all, there's not just one blanket like at this age, you know, say this, or if you've experienced this, then do this. So first of all, it's really individual. And it's also, you know, storytelling, storytelling is a really powerful tool in general. Because it, it bridges connection, it fosters empathy, and trust, and so a parent who has experienced trauma, making sure that if ever they feel a desire to share or connect with their young person in that way, that it's first of all, relevant, you know, to whatever a moment is, you know, that you've come across, it's not something that you want to just kind of spring out of nowhere. But many times, if it's just kind of authentically, something that you feel in a good place to share, because that's another piece of it, is that feeling ready to, not feeling forced to, or that you have to. And then kind of assessing, is it relevant? Is it something that, in the moment, you know, is something that my young person can receive? And so I definitely don't discourage disclosure, it's just about you know, what is the goal of disclosing something, whether it's to your child or to, you know, a peer, or a friend or you know, anyone at any point. What is it that you're, you know, hoping to come out of disclosing this, and how relevant is it in the moment?
So definitely, I mean, and just to share, like, an example. It was, within the last couple of years that I shared with my oldest, just my own experience with abortion. And that when she was just, you know, newly formed, I, and again, I was 17, that was an experience that I pursued, because I received messages, you know, from my dad, that was like, you can't have this baby, you'll, you'll end up, you know, working at McDonald's thinking you're doing something is like, literal quote. And so, I very much cared about what my father thought, you know, and I thought, oh my gosh, oh, my gosh, this is a mistake. And my mom, who was more connected to, like, her Catholic was just like, no, you can't do that, you know, you can't kill a child like, so I was getting just these very different messages and reactions.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Melissa Carnagey
And my partner, you know, my daughter's Father, you know, very, very supportive person, very loving person. And so we're both just in this kind of situation. And I ultimately decided, so the pressures led me to make the decision that I was going to get an abortion, and so I actually went to the clinic, and I went to through the process. But as they put me, you know, under, I was tapped just maybe 60 seconds later and told to sit up, and apparently, I had a septum, so a layer of skin that had some holes, you know, in it. So my
Hannah Witton
Right
Melissa Carnagey
Vaginal corona.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay.
Melissa Carnagey
And it, it made it so that they couldn't perform the procedure without me having that removed first, so that I didn't have an infection.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Melissa Carnagey
Right, very interesting. And so I pursue aborting my oldest child, and, you know, chain of events, it did not end up happening. My mom, of course, she, she had left, she wasn't there with me when I was getting the procedure, because she couldn't, you know, within her own value she couldn't be there. So I was there by myself. And they were like, call your mom, you know, she needs to come back. And so I was like, okay, you know, so and I, and they waited until she got back before they told me all the reasoning why I couldn't move forward. And she was like, oh, it's a miracle, this baby was meant to be like. And so the range of emotions, and that whole experience, and again, being near being, I think I was a new 18 year old at that time, by that time, but you know, sharing that story with my daughter, who, again, I shared it with her was we were to actually I think it was around kind of an awareness campaign, my kids are very aware of the work that I do. And it was around an awareness or some, some work around the topic of abortion and so then I just within myself, felt ready to talk about that experience. And I felt that it was relevant, and also knowing that she, again, is a young adult, and that she's making decisions on her own about her body, and sex, and relationships, and just felt it was important to share. So that example, you know, again, I felt that it was relevant to what what was going on what we're talking about, I felt ready to talk about it. There were definitely other times along our journey where I wouldn't I didn't feel ready to talk about that. I didn't know how to talk about that with her. And so yeah, just as an example, you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'd never even heard of that before, of the reason why they couldn't go through the procedure in that moment.
Melissa Carnagey
I can only believe that that all of that was that they were being honest with me, and that all of that was what it was, because I certainly hadn't heard of that at the time. You know, and yeah, and I, and they explained what my alternatives would be and it just all sounded like a lot. Like I'd have to go to a separate appointment and go get this get a surgery and all this. So it was just like, okay, I guess I'm supposed to have this baby.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Melissa Carnagey
But to come back close to just a real serious, you know, life changing decision. These are things that are like that, that was a part of my journey, that's a that's a part of my sexual health journey. And when I can share that, finding that that space that felt right to share that also was a helpful thing. It was helpful for us both. And it was a way that we could connect from something that was, that was real.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's really interesting that your example includes the topic of abortion, because it just reminded me that, I think I was like 20 or 21 years old or something, when me and my family were on holiday together. And it's usually like when we're all together, like relaxing and drinking, the conversations that we wouldn't normally have come up and I'd remember asking my mom if she'd ever had an abortion, because I was just like, I actually don't know this information about my mother. Like, she could well have, before or after I was born like, yeah. So I think it's, it's really interesting having that relationship when you have an adult child, but yeah, and how like when those conversations become relevant and when they get brought up when it, yeah, when you as a young person are like interested in your parents sexual history, and their lives as well.
Melissa Carnagey
It really can deepen that connection. And again, it's it's about that trust and young people see themselves in their parents. in the people that raised them, and it's a part of really exploring your own identity.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Melissa Carnagey
And there's great healing that can come through storytelling and through sharing. So I think that's really cool that you were able, you felt comfortable and really speaks to a relationship, you know, when you feel comfortable asking questions that can feel hard, or that can feel really deeply personal. So -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I remember she asked me and my sister back, so my sister's two years younger than me. So she was just like, have either of you? And she, she's a very, like, connected mother, she like very much enjoys being involved in mine and my sister's lives. So I think that she would, if we had, like, she would have been like, more upset that we didn't tell her. Like, oh, why didn't you tell me, kind of thing.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, there's that piece to have, like, even me as like the person that was telling this now, it was that fear of like, is she going to be upset at me, because I've kept this, you know, from her for, you know, two decades at that point, you know. But again, that was that there's an opportunity in that conversation to talk about all of the feelings that were involved, not just in the moment, or the story, but also present day or along the way, and to be able to tell her, you know, what were my reservations, were. Where my fear was, and to give her the opportunity to embrace me, and to show empathy, you know, for what it would've been like to go through what I went through, and what it might have been like to share that. And we don't often, especially depending on how we were raised, we don't often see the value of vulnerability within parents, and being vulnerable to and with our children, and that it's not a one way relationship and power dynamic. It's really, again, we're human beings, just in different stages of life. Neither of us are any more or less, we are inherently worthy at the same levels, and so it can be helpful to strip down, you know, and open up along the way, and about sexual health is one of those things, again which is this huge umbrella, it's about sexual health topics is really a great way to connect and get vulnerable.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it really is. So I asked our community on Instagram, if they had any questions about parenting and sex education. So I'm gonna ask a few of those now as well, if that's all right.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah!
Hannah Witton
There's some real good ones as well. So firstly, a bit of a broad one, what age should I start teaching my children?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, so there's not one set age. It's a lot of different talks, and it covers a lot of nuances of sexual health. So keeping in mind that we're sending messages from the day that our young people are born, you know, they're receiving messages about bodies, and about relationship, and about consent, and about intimacy, and about touch, and about identity, all of those messages are being sent from the moment they're born. Whether we're speaking them or, you know, again, they're around social norms around our behaviours, and so when parents really understand that, they really get it that you've been sending messages this whole time, you've been teaching them this whole time.
Now, where do you want to be more intentional, potentially, about it? Where do you want to make it more of a direct discussion? And that can be done within the early ages, that can be done around behaviours. So how we care for them, with their activities of care, you know, when we're changing diapers, and when we're changing clothes, or when they're at bath time, when we're interacting with others or they're interacting with strangers, you know, these are opportunities around body awareness, around consent, around safety. And then as they become more able to talk about, and have discussions, so in like the toddler years and the preschool years, introducing books that relate to these topics is a great way, or videos about these topics. These are all ways that we can be just more intentional about the messages and create that foundation, that will only deepen, and the conversations will only deepen their understanding and awareness over time. And so it's ongoing, itt's building blocks. Just like we do with like math, right. Like math, we don't know, the trigonometry, you know, when they're in, you know, elementary school, we build over time, and they get lots of different levels of math and lots of different discussions about it. And we're teaching them about concepts related to math in everyday life and everyday living, it's the same thing. There's just less stigma with math.
Hannah Witton
Now, now I want to kind of track the different like math stuff that you learn as you get older and correlate to different, different stuff that you would learn to do in sexuality.
Melissa Carnagey
Absolutely!
Hannah Witton
And someone asked, is there a limit? What if your kid asks about positions or orgasms?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, so that is something that again, what feels relevant, and really assess, at the time that they're asking the question, and how old are they? You know, so thinking of age concurrent, I don't like to use the word age appropriate. But I say age concurrent.
Hannah Witton
I've heard a lot of people say this.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
A lot of educators being like, I don't want to age appropriate. Do you mind like going into why that doesn't really serve us when we're talking about these things?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah. So appropriate, really has, you know, subjectivity to it and, you know, kind of judgement to it that can be inaccurate and skewed. So I say congruent, because it's more just about being, like in line with their cognitive development, and social emotional development. And so just thinking of, yeah, let's say, if you have a six year old, you know, who's asking questions about sex, and if they were to ask about sexual positions. So thing I tell parents is, you know, first and foremost, in terms of answering or responding, you can always say, wow, that's a really great question, I'm so glad you asked. What do you know about that? or what have you heard about that? So turn the question back on them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've heard this being used before.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because you're finding out what they already know. Just so you don't actually -
Melissa Carnagey
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Accidentally overload them with stuff that they're not actually asking you about. You want to find out exactly what they already know.
Melissa Carnagey
Right? Yeah. Put the PowerPoint away.
Hannah Witton
Well child, here's my presentation for you!
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, and because yeah, especially if we're talking about again, four or five, six year olds that are going to be even hyper curious, and their curiosities will often come more unfiltered. Because they haven't, at that time, number one, because that's just kind of cognitively where they're at, they're just really curious. And number two, around those ages, they have less of an awareness of the social norms and kind of the outside world or abstract concepts. So they are very much in the here and now. And so if they have a feeling, you know, or a need, or a question, they, they can react on it with less insecurity that starts to develop over time, around things. And so this is, those early years are a great time to show them, through action, that you are responsive to their questions, that you're a trusted adult, and that they can come to and that you're not going to shame them for anything that they have to ask at all. And if you can create that early, then you'll find that that sustains itself over time, and you are less likely then to have a teen who bottles up or closes up and doesn't share with you. Many times when you see that, and I work with parents a lot on this, is they're like, I don't know how to talk to him about this. They like, you know, shut their ears, they don't want to talk about any of this stuff with me. And it's not because these things are inherently awkward, or inherently inappropriate, or bad, or wrong. It's often because of the messages that we've sent to them and that they've picked up about how people will react to these topics.
Hannah Witton
Ah, yeah. So if you've previously said things like, where did you learn that? Or, not until you're older, then that sends the message that you're not a person to open up to about these things?
Melissa Carnagey
Exactly. Then, then we fall into it being a gatekeeper versus a mentor, when we basically say you're not allowed to know about this. That is telling them that their curiosity is wrong, that's there's something wrong with their curiosity. And so that breeds insecurity, that breeds shame, and that just makes that makes a person go more inward and think, Oh, I must be stupid or wrong for asking that. And then, you know, if we have adverse reactions, they also can tend to want to protect other people. So if they see that, you know, oh wow, that looked like that really upset my parent, you know, when I said that, I don't want to say that again, because I don't want to upset them. So children are constantly gauging their environments and the reactions of others, and so we want to be mindful of that. This isn't about being perfect, though. This isn't about not being authentic, we can have our reactions, we can have our feelings, and we should just communicate what's going on, and not leave it to assumptions, or them having to read us and instead say, oh, wow, that question really caught me off guard, I didn't expect that. That's a really great question. I'm not really sure how to answer that right now. Can you give me a moment, I'd like to check back with you.
Hannah Witton
I love that, that feels so honest.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, just being honest, that's really what it's about. That's really what all of this is about is just being authentic, being honest, owning our stuff, or shit. You know, own our stuff, seeing our children as other humans worthy of that kind of relationship, and that kind of respect. Unfortunately, power dynamics can often, and have historically played out in parenting, have tried to send the message of adults being, you know, better than, or more powerful, or more capable than young people. And then somehow, when you turn 18, or whatever arbitrary age, then you're supposed to take on that role. But yeah -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but you've not been prepared for.
Melissa Carnagey
Exactly, you have not been prepared to step into that confidently.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. This kind of connected, because you mentioned about how children and young people are just constantly picking up things from, things that adults or older people will say around them. And this is another question from one of our listeners, how do you navigate those that you, or your child, interact with who stigmatise sex? so that other people, so it's not in your control, what they say around your young person. How do you navigate that?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, great question. So you use the word control, that's a big part of it, is being first aware of what is within your control and what isn't. And really, all that's within our control is our own actions, or reactions, or words. And so it's really seeing your, the potential for influence that could exist in influencing another person. Whether that's the child, whether that's this other person, or these other people, and also knowing your limits and your boundaries. And so having limits and boundaries is super important. It can be challenging, and not comfortable, especially if you have not grown up with an awareness of how to set boundaries and limits. And many times, people that are challenged by this question, have grown up with that inequitable power dynamic. And so it can be harder to speak up, and to advocate, and to stand firm in your values and your beliefs, and to know that those are worthy. And so it's really becomes like a good test, you know, good like, to test of, you know, how can I get clear about what my values are, and how I'm raising my young person, and how I can communicate with with others about that.
Also, knowing I don't owe that to anybody, you know. I'm the one raising this young person or we, if it's a unit, you know, folks that are raising the young person, we are, these our values, and we don't have to explain that, we don't have to get that approved by anyone before we can move forward. So sometimes, it even comes down to ending up having to, like set some clear boundaries around certain people that might be toxic, or that might be adversarial, or hypercritical, and it's also about talking with the young person, you know, if they're of the age where, you know, you can talk to them about it. So again, that could be you know, 5,6,7,8,9, whatever, and if there's a certain family member that is crossing boundaries, or that is being negative, or that is, you know, really judgmental, it's talking openly with your young person about, about what they're observing and what that dynamic is, instead of leaving them out of that and feeling like you just have to try to work with this difficult situation. And it's also okay, it's good for young people to see the diversity that exists around different values, around different beliefs.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
How do you, yeah, because you want them to like know that, hey, you will come across people in life who do think differently to you. But then obviously, you want to be like but this is how, this is how we like to do it.
Melissa Carnagey
Being clear again, about your why. Why is it important that consent is respected in your home? Why is it important and that you talk about the actual, you talk about body parts in terms of their actual names? And so when you're clear about that, you can more clearly communicate that and express that to your child. So that they, you know, again, be like, oh, well, yeah, that makes sense. Of course, yes. I like when people respect my consent. And so yes, I want to be able to have that respected by others. And so then that fosters in your young person, the ability to also have better advocate for themselves in situations, or to set boundaries for themselves, and then you're working together as a team. If there's an opposing force, you're working together as a team, as opposed to you as the parent thinking, you have to shoulder all of this opposition, you know, for on your own.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's so interesting, because my brain was like, immediately going into, like, you say to your young person, like, oh, what this person is saying is wrong. But don't tell them that I said that and I'm, like, imagining this, like, back web of gossip and stuff. But yeah, that's not the route you want to be going down. One question that I had, that I'm just curious about is, I guess this kind of ties in to speaking about your own experience, and when relevant, but do you have any experience working with families that aren't a traditional family structure, who may be polyamorous, and how that works with, you know, the, their children, their young people, knowing what their relationship is, and how and how it works, and respecting that, yeah. If you have any experience there, I'd just really be interested to know.
Melissa Carnagey
Definitely, so I do one-on-one coaching with families and I, at this point, have been doing it for over two years now. And so, at this point, I've worked with just the gamut, you know, in terms of diversity and intersectionality in families and identities. And so these kinds of questions can come up a lot. And I will say that, again, it goes back to first you and the, the adults being really clear about their why's, and also being really clear about their own identities, you know, and their own, the way that they live their life, the way they navigate relationships, the way they navigate intimacy. When we're holding on to shame, any semblance of shame around that which again, gets projected onto us from early messages, from every day, from the world around us, depending on the identities that we hold. And so we have to stay, like nurtured and well, you know, within our own confidence about who we are, and within our own identities. That way, we are able to better just, again, advocate, set boundaries, and when it comes to talking with young people, this is this is who you are, right. This is who we are, whatever those identities are, whatever way it is that we're living our life, if we're confident, and we're clear about that, then there's not it's, in terms of talking with our young people, this is this is just who we are. And young people don't, they don't enter the world with judgments, you know, they don't enter the world with criticism. That, again, is all taught and, and projected. And so if a young person comes into the world with, you know, we'll just use the term a not, you know, traditional family structure or system. They don't see that, unless it's pointed out to them, or unless it's framed to them in that way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because that's how they're raised and they're just like, Oh, this is just how it is. Yeah. Because I imagine like when I was a kid, not related to this, but you would grow up knowing one thing, and then you would just assume that was the case for everyone. And you're just like, wait, is this not what everyone does or says? or how everyone's parents are? And you're like, oh.
Melissa Carnagey
Exactly. So just realising what is yours, and what is what what is that that's being projected on to us,in terms of negativity, or criticism, or judgement, or bigotry. Whatever that is, those are things that are projected, and we can choose to either accept those and adopt those for ourselves or lead with those ourselves, or we can reject those, and we can disrupt those. And so really, again, it's just about being liberated and authentic within yourself and thus within your family, and leading from that place within your family. And, you know, again, at the heart of it, if love, whatever love looks like within your family, it's worthy, and it's enough and it doesn't have to be explained to anyone. And children will, children know love. They recognise love, before labels. So just keeping that in mind and being therefore confident and open and candid. And you also can, and should, you know, then find yourself preparing them, you know, for the outside world, and especially if they are in school settings outside of the home, then they will start
Hannah Witton
Because they'll naturally get questions and comments.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, they may get questions or they may start to notice some differences. And then that's just where you use that communication, and that connection, and that trust, and you talk about it and talk openly. And you know, whatever questions that they have, that's an opportunity for you to, again, share your values, share your why, to dispel any myths or any bigotry, all of that. So just seeing your influence as as a real, you know, primary one in their lives, as opposed to being afraid or in fear that these external forces have a stronger influence than you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think that's a really lovely place to end it. Thank you so much, Melissa. This has been so enlightening, and just really interesting. And hopefully preparing lots of parents as well as, as well as young people. Where can people find you, find Sex Positive Families and the work that you do online?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, so @sexpositive_families on Instagram, is our primary social media platforms. We have just at this point, over 100,000 families, parents, caring adults. We also have teens that that follow our work. And so every day, just having conversations and engaged in the topics around sex positivity and sexual health and families. Also, we're on Facebook @sexpositivefamilies, and we have a website, sexpositivefamilies.com. And that is where you can find just a wealth of resources that can support the talks with the young people in your life.
Amazing. Thank you so much. And thank you for listening. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast