Heartbreak, Mental Health and Healing with Hazel Hayes | Transcript

Listen to "Heartbreak, Mental Health and Healing with Hazel Hayes".

Find the episode shownotes here!

Hannah Witton

Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, everyone, I hope you're all doing well. Today's episode is all about love, relationships, breakups, and mental health. Things get somewhat heavy, but it's also hopeful, and I hope that for some of you listening, maybe you'll hear something that you really needed to hear, and it helps you through a bad day. Today's guest is a writer, director, and author, Hazel Hayes. I've known Hazel for many years, and she recently published her debut novel, Out of Love, which tells the story of a breakup, but backwards. We talk about why people break up, is there such a thing as two people being right for each other, heartbreak and healing through the characters, but also through Hazel's own experiences with relationships and mental health. At the time of recording, copies of Out of Love were sold out, but they should be back in stock by the time you are listening to this. I really loved this book, I would highly recommend it for people who are interested in love and breakup stories, but told with a different timeline of events. As usual, you can find show notes and timestamps for your questions that you submitted on our website, DoingItPodcast.co.uk. I hope that you enjoy this episode. Here is Hazel Hayes.

Hello, Hazel, thank you so much for joining me, I'm really excited to chat with you.

Hazel Hayes

I am excited too. I actually like a little bit couldn't sleep last night, like it was Christmas Eve or something. I was like thinking about this today. I'm excited. Also, I just haven't chatted to you as a human in so long.

Hannah Witton

I know. And also I feel like listeners just need the context of we have planned to record this for so long, and just every day like something just came up and like -

Hazel Hayes

Conspired against us

Hannah Witton

Like I'm genuinely surprised we're recording this right now.

Hazel Hayes

Me too. I think that's why I was so excited, because it was like, oh my God, it's actually happening, this is the fourth time we've planned to do it.

Hannah Witton

But you are a new author. Congratulations on your new book, Out of Love.

Hazel Hayes

Thank you.

Hannah Witton

I supported it on unbound, and I read it, and it's brilliant. So congrats.

Hazel Hayes

Thank you. And I thought I was so nice to open the back of the book and see, like, because I didn't know who was supporting. So to see all the names of friends and stuff, who I didn't know were supporting it was so sweet.

Hannah Witton

I was going through it as well and looking to see any names that I recognised. And then I also did like a really mean thing of like, thinking of someone who we both knew, and like went and looked for their name and it wasn't there, and I was like, rude.

Hazel Hayes

I won't lie, I did that with a couple of friends too. And then I had to be like, oh, they actually supported me like writing it, and being there for me. And like, yeah, it was a weird way to look at it, but I kind of did do the same thing; I see they clearly they don't care.

Hannah Witton

So Out of Love it is, it tells the story of a breakup, but backwards. So you start with the breakup, and then you get like the whole relationship. And I'm curious, why did you want to tell a love story backwards? Like, where did it all come from?

Hazel Hayes

Let's just like, get it out of the way really. If you're watching any film, you just waiting for the end of Act Two and when shit inevitably hits the fan. So I thought, oh we'll just get the crap out of the way. Also, am I allowed to curse on this podcast cuz I'm watching myself and I'm like, do I need to be doing that?

Hannah Witton

Absolutely

Hazel Hayes

Erm, why did I do it like that? Well, the first chapter was actually a short story that I wrote, give or take about three years ago now I think. And it was a story that had been sort of just running around my head about this break up, and I just needed to get it on the page and anybody who writes or makes things will understand sometimes you just need to get it out of you. Like, like a good vomit.

Hannah Witton

A really good vomit.

Hazel Hayes

A really good, hefty vomit. So I vomited that onto the page and it ended up being like, really quite long actually, it was a hefty chapter like 10,000 words, and I sent it to a few friends and my agent. And in around that time, I was also meeting with publishers. But it was that kind of thing of like, hey, you have a YouTube channel wanna write a book? And I was like, no, not really, as a result of that, no. And if I do write a book, I want it to be meaningful and be something I really want to write. But meeting with them kind of made me think about writing a book, I suppose, which I hadn't really been doing because I was so busy writing scripts.

Hannah Witton

The seed had been planted.

Hazel Hayes

That was exactly it. And then I kind of, yeah, it was that thing of i'd created these characters and this little world, and then they just kind of existed in my head, and they lived there. And I started to think about them in a wider context about, you know, what their journey had been, and how they had ended up getting to that point. And I think I'd known their history, even when I wrote that story about their breakup, but I hadn't written it down anywhere. So yeah, I just wanted to expand on the story but it didn't feel right to go forwards. Because then it's just a story of a woman getting over a breakup, which, I don't know, we've seen it a million times, as I say, it can't be done well, or I would never do it in the future, but it wasn't the story that I needed to tell like for me, and what I really wanted to explore was the unravelling of a relationship, because I think we've all been there like, every time you go through something like that, or any kind of grief, even if it's a job loss, or whatever it might be, you start looking back at, well, how did I get to this point? Did I ever enjoy it in the first place? Was I ever really happy? You know.

Hannah Witton

With hindsight as well.

Hazel Hayes

Completely.

Hannah Witton

And like, knowing what you know.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah. And it's like, would you would you do it again, knowing what you know, I think I had also seen like Arrival around that time, I'd like read stories of Your Life and Others. And and there's so much stuff out there like, One Day, and The Time Traveller's Wife, and lots of books that I've read and Joan Didion talking about grief, and yeah, there was lots of seeds planted about the kind of why and, and the aftermath, and whether you would do it again, now that you're in the aftermath, now you know how painful it can be. So yeah, I wanted to explore that. And I think for myself, I wanted to dissect a relationship and sort of see where the good bits were and, I guess to a degree, whether they were worth it, and also to convince myself that it's not just one singular event, people often ask that, like, oh, why did you break up and you expected.

Hannah Witton

Yeah.

Hazel Hayes

you know, he shouted at me or she cheated on me. And it's often it's not that, it's it's years and years, or even before you ever got together, it's your past, your parents, your families, your upbringing, your own traumas, your own experiences, and all that baggage that you bring to the relationship to begin with, and whether or not the two of you can carry that, healthfully, together.

Hannah Witton

Yeah. That was one of my questions, actually. So your your two characters, Theo and, can we call her Angel? Because you don't name her.

Hazel Hayes

No, I haven't named her but we do call her Angel.

Hannah Witton

Okay, cool. Yeah, cuz I really loved that you don't get her actual name. But yeah, Angel.

Hazel Hayes

Oh good, I'm glad.

Hannah Witton

Do you think that it was external forces that ended up bringing them down? So like Theo's mom, and his job, and angels past. Or are they just not right for each other?

Hazel Hayes

It's an interesting question, because I don't necessarily believe the two are mutually exclusive. Like, I think external forces are what make you who you are like your, your, your experiences are, what shape how you think, how you behave. And if two people are bringing external forces and experiences into a relationship, and that shapes how they behave, it's, it's going to shape how they react towards one another.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah, so it's a funny question. I think in a lot of relationships, there is a question of like, are you right for each other? Yeah, probably, there's some cases where two people just, you know, not on the same wavelength, they don't agree necessarily, religiously, politically, or on some really fundamental things, or they have a completely different sense of humour, or whatever it is, it's just gonna kind of not work on a day to day basis in terms of communication. But I think a lot of people are, on paper, right for each other, quote, unquote, right for each other, but it's sorts of all the extra stuff that they're bringing, and maybe what I like to think as well is, if they'd met at a different time in their lives, maybe they'd have worked.

Hannah Witton

It's the full package.

Hannah Witton

Oh yeah.

Hazel Hayes

Like she really grows throughout that relationship and changes, and he changes a lot as well. And maybe if at some point on their path they'd met at a different time, they would have been, they would have been able to last longer, or they would have been better. But then there's also the question of like, just because it didn't work out, does that mean it was wrong or they weren't right for you? For a time, maybe that was actually what you needed for those couple of years. And often you come out of relationship and I think it's important to look at, like all the things like, I've come out of relationships and thought, well, I wouldn't have moved to this place, I wouldn't have met these friends, I wouldn't be doing this job, I wouldn't be writing this material, you know, I wouldn't have maybe gone to that yoga class and met that person who put me in touch with that therapist, and all the weird little intricate ways that, the sort of butterfly effect, on your life that a relationship can have. I think it's important, as well, to look at all that and who you are and where you are, coming out of it and it doesn't necessarily mean it was bad, because it ended.

Hannah Witton

Yeah, no, I 100% agree with that. I think we have this obsession with a successful relationship is one that is literally till death do you part. But there are so many different ways that we can measure success in terms of dating and romance and, and like you said, like, you might have a short lived fling with somebody, or a short relationship with somebody but what that served for you might have been hugely important and valuable, but it just didn't, it was just short and short doesn't necessarily mean worse.

Hazel Hayes

Exactly.

Hannah Witton

But the timing thing, oh, my God, I say this all the time about timing, I think is such a huge part of

Hazel Hayes

Yeah.

Hannah Witton

Whether a relationship is going to last, like a month or like, ten years.

Hazel Hayes

Absolutely. I mean, can you think of it, like if I think about who I was 15 years ago, like it's just she's a completely different person, and wouldn't be compatible with the same people I'm compatible with now or seek out or be attracted to the same people, I don't think. Yeah, it's I think it really is a huge difference. And there's also sometimes, you know, I've been through breakups, where you've sort of parted ways, you know, with kindness, and you're thinking, you know, maybe maybe in 10 years, we'll have gone off and met other people and come back to it, and we'll have learned our lessons and grown in a way that we can be compatible again, but right now, it just isn't gonna work. So yeah, timing is I think key sometimes.

Hannah Witton

It is. How would you define Theo and Angels relationship? Like, would you define it as a toxic or an unhealthy one? Or is, does it have like elements of that later on? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I just tried to figure out how I would define their relationship.

Hazel Hayes

I don't know that I would count it as toxic necessarily. I think neither of them are being abusive, neither of them are gaslighting the other or in any way attempting to tear the other down, really. They're just sort of two people whose internal struggles just haven't been dealt with properly yet. And they're, they're butting heads a little bit. But there's like, there's so much love there. There's so much care, and support, and a genuine effort, I think, to, to be there for one another. I think I think like, you know, people, some people see Theo's actions as so awful and it's like, he is, he was really trying a lot of the time, like, you know, when he said he would support her, whatever she did chose to do with her career, he meant that in that moment, he just wasn't capable of giving that to her. And I think that's another huge thing.

Hannah Witton

Yeah, it's like, knowing what you're getting yourself into, with your promises.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, not living up to promises, you know, it's obviously a bad thing. But some, one big thing that I've kind of learned on my own journey is, is accepting sometimes when other people haven't been malicious, or evil, or intended to cause any harm, but just weren't capable of giving you the love and the support in the way that you needed to receive it. Like, he just doesn't, he's just not there, he's not emotionally mature enough yet, he hasn't dealt with his own stuff yet. And he's not really at a place where he's willing to look at it, or properly start to deal with it. And one day, I think he will be. But at this point in his life, I think she just kind of grows and matures a bit beyond him and they grow apart a little bit. But um, no, I wouldn't really call it toxic. I think it's on its way to being there, for sure. And any relationship that ends, I mean, it's ended for a reason, it's ended because you're fighting, or arguing, or ignoring one another, somebody is looking elsewhere or whatever. So and that does seem to be the case of this. And so I think definitely towards the end, it's negative, it's unhealthy in a lot of ways. But I don't think either of them are being horrible, necessarily.

Hannah Witton

No, just that, yeah, incompatibility or like inability to communicate in the way that they need, they need to.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah, definitely, I was about to say the word communication. Yeah, I think that's a huge part of what's wrong with them. Like, there's some stuff that goes on, I don't want to give away any spoilers, but like, you know, one of them does something that's a bit naughty, and it sort of unravels in a way that you then realise were like, God, what was that just a really bad communication? Like, did they just misconstrue what the other person wanted there? Like, it seems like again, there was almost an intention to please the other person but it's just was so -

Hannah Witton

Backfired.

Hazel Hayes

Backfired massively and like, yeah, just did not hit the mark at all. But I think that's the thing with a lot of what happens between them, they're just not communicating very well at all.

Hannah Witton

I think I think I know what bit you're talking about, and again, no spoilers. But I think when I was reading that, one of the things that really stood out to me was that, and I think this is especially true for like heterosexual couples, is because that is seen as the norm in society, there's like this cookie cutter experience of of what your boundary should be, and how you should behave. And you never actually discuss what you want, like as an individual, and what your actual boundaries are, rather than just applying the same script that society has just handed to you. And so I think that's what Angel and Theo kind of did, they just assumed, you know, what, each other's boundaries were without actually talking about it.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah, absolutely.

Hannah Witton

Communication, guys, it's key. So I wanted to talk about mental health as well, because that was a huge theme in the book, and especially how that intersects with relationships. And why was it so important for you to have that it's such a big theme in the book?

Hazel Hayes

It's interesting, whenever I get asked a question like that, I'm like, that makes me makes me sound more clever, or like I had an intention that I didn't really have, it just sort of happened to happen that way. It wasn't like I sat down and put pen to paper and was like, I need to address mental health, or I need to address bisexuality, like, it was it was the story I needed to tell. And I keep saying that, but like it's it's it's fiction and these characters are fictional, but obviously, I'm pulling from a lot of my own personal experiences, that's what that's what any writer does, really. And the feeling behind it is very real. So you know, Angel is not me, I'd say she's like, maybe some kind of amplified version of a past me, who I don't necessarily -

Hannah Witton

Her humour, I thought, was very you.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah. Yeah, she's she's very dry.

Hannah Witton

You're the author, and you're writing the humour as well.

Hazel Hayes

That's it, she talks like me, I think some of her opinions are more extreme than mine would be like, on things like religion, that kind of thing, like she she has more extreme views than I do, and she behaves in a way that I wouldn't necessarily behave. But yeah, I think I did pull from a lot of my own experience with depression and anxiety and trauma, to kind of flesh her out, I guess, and, and not, not excuse or explain, but sort of get to the heart of why she behaves the way that she does. And in the same way that I think, you know, Theo just hasn't really dealt with some stuff, necessarily, and is and is therefore, acting out as a result, she's kind of doing the exact same thing. And we're just we're just not in his head seeing all that.

Hannah Witton

Yeah, that's so true.

Hazel Hayes

But I think if we were, yeah, we would absolutely see those bouts of depression and anxiety and stuff in him as well, I think. But we're obviously just seeing him from the outside. So -

Hannah Witton

Yeah, please don't tell me you're going to write a Midnight Sun in like 20 years time, and it'll be Out of Love from from Theo's perspective.

Hazel Hayes

I have been asked to do it, Hannah.

Hannah Witton

Oh my God, you have?

Hazel Hayes

And I can tell you right now, it's not gonna happen. Unless someone offers me a ridiculous amount of money. And I mean ridiculous. But I have been approached about doing it, and basically what I've said is, like, look, it's not the worst idea in the world. But I would have had to write this book with that in mind, like to be able to come back to situations from and it's been done really, really well in some storytelling, there's actually random, there's an episode of Buffy, where Joss Whedon does that beautifully, like he'll show a scene from one perspective and then from the other characters, but it was written to do that, and it illuminates something else the second time around, whereas I'm not really sure that this would do that.

And it's also, it's not about him like sorry, spoiler. It's just really not about him. It's like, it's really a story about a woman going through a lot of stuff, set against the backdrop of a relationship you know, like it's packaged as a romance or whatever but and it is about them but so much of it takes place in her head, and it's about her friendships, and her family connections, and her relationship to home and yeah, I sorry, coming back, as you said to her mental health as well. And that's something I think I just really wanted to explore, again kind of for myself, like what was going on over the years and what are all the external influences and experiences that are contributing to the way she feels and behaves and her her changing perspective on herself, her life, the relationship, and, and yeah, I think she reacts sometimes to certain situations, as a person would if they were dealing with depression or anxiety, rather than just the quote unquote normal way. Like her friend tells her, she's having a baby and she has a little bit of an existential crisis about it. Like she, the idea of her friend, creating a whole human is a little bit too much for her brain to handle and she immediately sort of plummets into these morbid thoughts about like, oh God, but what if something happens to the baby, and ultimately, you know, eventually, one way or the other, that kid's going to die, and she can't really get her head around it. And that's huge and horrible, but it's also I think, something that, like, let's look at that, because these are the, these are the thoughts that sometimes pop into our head, and we feel so much shame and we go, oh, my God, I can't believe I just thought that, and we push it away instead of actually just taking it and looking and going, okay, well, where's that come from? And why am I so scared of it? And dealing with it.

Hannah Witton

Like, sometimes I feel like I go too far the other way, like, personally, like when I start to notice I'm having these like recurring thoughts that I feel ashamed of having, I then will go out of my way to tell as many people as possible and then, but then, it makes what wasn't real real.

Hazel Hayes

That's so interesting.

Hannah Witton

And actually, sometimes I think that that's worse, because I'm just like, but I don't actually feel like this, but I've thought I've almost like made it real now.

Hazel Hayes

Like you've given power to it by kind of giving it space, giving it energy. Yeah, that is really interesting.

Hannah Witton

So I feel like there's maybe a healthy medium.

Hazel Hayes

Somewhere in between, definitely.

Hannah Witton

Where you don't supress them, but also you don't just like start shouting it to everyone.

Hazel Hayes

Well, no, it's the very, like I've been doing, I've been meditating a lot the past couple years, and reading a lot about meditation and like, how it how it can help you. P.S fully been going on my own mental health journey for a while. But yeah, I think that's, that's one of the big things I'm learning is to be able to sort of see a thought, and acknowledge it, and give it the space it deserves, and then just let it go. To not ruminate on everything, but to not also to not push them away, and go oof, bad thoughts, or to welcome them in and go, yum, yum, good thoughts. It's just like, they're just thoughts. They are just thoughts, you are not your thoughts. Yeah, just like, oh, I'm thinking about that again. Okay. And then you just get on with your day, and there's something so liberating about that. I wish I knew that, and could do it, as a teenager.

Hannah Witton

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, teenage thoughts.

Hazel Hayes

It's tough.

Hannah Witton

That's a lot. I had a lot of questions from our followers on Instagram, and I'll get to those shortly. And a lot of them are advice questions, and we will do our best.

Hazel Hayes

No, we will do our very best.

Hannah Witton

We'll do our best. But I'm curious as to what you think happens to Angel after Theo. So this is after the first chapter of the book, basically. What, do you have an idea of like, what happens to her after?

Hazel Hayes

Yes.

Hannah Witton

Is this going to be the next book?

Hazel Hayes

It might be. Yeah, I so, so the series has been has been optioned. So yeah. James Norton's production, James Norton's production company optioned the rights to the series, there's always a hard way of explaining it. But basically, someone has been like, hello, yes, we would like to own the rights of this book to potentially make series out of it. And I'm currently writing the pilot, which is insane and amazing. But also, it means that I need to be thinking about series two in a way that I never have to think about a sequel to the book. It's interesting, because I actually had my literary agent advise not to do a sequel, because then anyone just randomly sort of picking it up in a bookshop would have to read the first one to get it. So she she was sort of like, you know, by all means, use the same characters and stuff, but a direct sequel is maybe not the best idea. Whereas with TV, if you're pitching, they want to know now what series two and three are, they need to know that this series has longevity. Something like fleabag, for example, you know, that it was based on her stand up show and that coverage that spanned one season, and then she had to come up with a whole other season around it, which she, you know, nailed obviously. But yeah, and the same is true, something like Normal People, it ends where the book ends and Sally hasn't written another one yet, and and they they don't really know, but they've left it kind of open. So yeah, so I've had to be thinking about the the, the second series sooner than, I guess, I would have hoped and in doing so, I'm thinking about the sequel to the book as well. And I think my gut instinct is I want to know more about Lena. I want to spend some -

Hannah Witton

Oh, who was that?

Hazel Hayes

Lena is the girl she meets in a chapter called Summer Skin.

Hannah Witton

Is this the the woman who lived in the house -

Hazel Hayes

Across the road, yeah. And she befriends this girl and and spends a couple days with her and it's a funny one. It's always been my favourite chapter to come back to, it's a chapter I feel very, like safe and warm in. I just love spending time there. And often you don't really get a choice with this kind of stuff as a writer. As you know, like, it's the kind of thing where I'll just wake up in the middle of the night, or I'll be shampooing my hair, and these sort of images or scenes or whatever will pop into my head. And a lot of the time it is, it is Lena. So yeah, I think I think I definitely want to explore that more. And her relationship to home as well, I think, was something that was never really intended to be as big a part of the book, but it just kind of took on a life of its own. Pretty much that was the case with the whole book. Like it all just kind of evolved out of out of that one chapter, and I ended up exploring things that I hadn't really intended to. But yeah, her relation to home, as well, is a big thing in my mind. So whether it's maybe her going back to Ireland, or going to find Lena or something like that, a little while later.

Hannah Witton

Is Lena in Sweden.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah, I have this vision. I just I've had this thing in my head for ages, of her just turning up on Lena's doorstep, like unannounced. And what Lena looks like when she opens the door and her reaction.

Hazel Hayes

Just like, what?

Hazel Hayes

What?? Yeah, and it's quite a while later, and I think, yeah, like, where her life is now and what she's doing now, and and whether or not she's with someone new, or you know, who knows. So I kind of I kind of keep saying that. Here's a really weird confession actually. I went through a really rough time, around Christmas, and I had a night where I was like, really bad, like I dipped quite badly and was just feeling like shit. And was sort of, you know, when you sort of grasp at ways to like, soothe yourself, you're sort of like, well, I'll go see this friend next week, or I have my work to do, I have whatever. And this thought popped into my head, as though it was real, it was like, I'll just go see Lena.

Hazel Hayes

And I like literally thought about buying a ticket to Sweden and I would just go find her. And I had to stop myself and be like, Hazel, she's not real. She is a fictional character, she's not there, and it was a really strange moment where like, I'd been so deep in the book, for so long, that these characters have become like real people to me. And I couldn't differentiate. Yeah, it's insane. But yeah, so that happened. So I think I think something inside me is telling me, we need to need to go find Lena

Hannah Witton

Oh -

Hannah Witton

Go find Lena, season two.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah, season two. Let's get season one done first.

Hannah Witton

One thing at a time. Okay, so these questions from our followers on Instagram. There's quite a few. So -

Hazel Hayes

We will power through them.

Hannah Witton

We will tackle these. Oh wow, it's starting heavy. How'd you get over the feeling that you aren't good enough/deserving of a good relationship?

Hazel Hayes

Honestly, in a word, therapy.

Hannah Witton

Oh, yeah.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah. Like I know not everybody can afford that. And it's like it is kind of a luxury thing for a lot of people, but but you know, you can get on the NHS as well. And even if it's about reading the right books, or listening to the right people, like there's so many podcasts that I listened to, and books that I've read by amazing people like Pema Chödrön, and Eckhart Tolle, and Sarah Wilson, and I think you can find your own sort of gurus, find people who've been through it, like even and I mentioned this in the book, like in the first chapter, she's reading, Joan Didion and Nora Efron. And, you know, she's reading books, by and about women who've been through heartbreak and have come out the other side, and she's finding other people who've already put it into words for her.

Hannah Witton

Yeah.

Hazel Hayes

So I think, yeah, you kind of, you kind of need to hear from other people who've been through it, but then also, really just do your own work on yourself. Because the truth is, of course you're good enough. Of course, you're worthy of love.

Hannah Witton

It's believing it deep down.

Hazel Hayes

But believing it's you has probably let's be honest, it's probably come from some kind of childhood experiences, where you were made to feel that you weren't deserving of love for whatever reason. And it then manifests in later life. And what you end up doing is sort of your your unconscious is secretly seeking out partners who are going to replicate what you went through as a child. Those same -

Hannah Witton

Like almost confirm what you think you already know.

Hazel Hayes

Absolutely. And then it gets to tell you see, you're not good enough. You know, it likes to read. It's a horrible little voice, but it but it is the voice of fear. And I've just usually a scared little child. So what I've kind of learned on, and I mean, Jesus, I'm trying to condense four years of therapy into a sentence. Yeah, it's really about doing your own work and this sounds so trite, but it really is also about learning to love yourself and accept that whatever it is you're seeking externally, you have to be able to give yourself first otherwise it's just it's never going to go in. Like there's been moments when, you know, you want to text that ex ,you want to reach out, you you're suddenly you want a hug from somebody, suddenly you want validation from somebody, and those moments where I've, it's been really, really huge for me to be able to stop and go, well hold on, can I give this to myself? Do I have to send that text? Do I have to ask for that thing? Could I give myself a hug? Could I make myself a cup of tea and run myself a nice bath and do nice things for me, to show myself that I'm worthy of this love and care myself?

Hannah Witton

Yeah. That's great. Are you thankful for heartbreak? Or is that just something people say to make themselves feel better?

Hazel Hayes

Oh, well, you can, you can definitely be more thankful when it's given you the material to sell 1000s of copies of books.

Hannah Witton

Yeah, there’s a practical element to it.

Hazel Hayes

But also yeah, I mean, it, it helps you really uncover the deepest, darkest, hardest parts of yourself, that are usually the ones that you you do have to deal with. So as horrible as it is, it's, it's also, you know, again, I've been doing all my reading lately, and trying to sort of learn about feelings and how to cope with them. And you know, if you if you were to take a lesson from Buddhism, you accept that suffering is absolutely as much a part of life as contentment and joy is and instead of trying to resist the suffering, and why me? and why do I feel this way? and why did they leave? And why can't they love me? and like resisting the way things are, you just sort of accept, well, this is how things are currently, I feel like a piece of shit, and that's okay. Eventually, I won't, and I'm just gonna keep giving myself as much love and care as I can until I don't feel like shit anymore, you know, but it's about not fighting it. I have found going through some tough times in the past 30 years, since I've done my work, it has been easier, it's getting easier. And I don't go to the depths that I used to now that I've kind of stopped fighting it and just accepted like, alright, so today's shit, this whole week might be shit. Okay. That's where we are. And it suddenly kind of gets a little bit better. So, yeah, I think I am thankful for it.

Hannah Witton

Also though, you accept it but you also know that it's temporary.

Hazel Hayes

Absolutely. Knowing that it's temporary is so important. And it's important to understand the mechanisms that are going on in your head, like Jesus, I could talk for an hour on this, but like, when when you're triggered, or you're in a bad way, your time centre literally shuts down, like things happen, your focus centre shuts down, which is communication, so you can't really express yourself, your amygdala lights up, you're acting from fear and a place of just sort of raw evolutionary caveman stuff, and your time centre shuts down. So you, you really genuinely feel like it's never going to end. That's a real feeling. And it's valid, because you can't discern between yesterday and tomorrow and the past in the future. This is just happening, and it's always going to be happening. And it is really important to ground yourself and get back to now and reality and accept that even though it feels like this is never going to end, that isn't actually true. And it will.

Hannah Witton

Yeah. And then like almost like telling yourself that over and over again.

Hazel Hayes

Oh, yeah, it really feels real. I remember, I was having a complete breakdown one time with a friend, I was in LA, and he's stuck Moana on, by the way. And I haven't been able to watch that film since because I was in a really bad way. I was like, I was full blown triggered, and he was trying to help. He was like, I'll put a nice Disney movie on and it didn't. But he kept saying, what did help, was he kept saying to me, you're not always going to feel this way. Like I promise you in probably a couple of hours, you will feel at least marginally better. And within the next few days, you will find yourself laughing and okay and good again, like I promise that is going to happen. And when it did happen, I was like, that totally happened. I'm okay.

Hannah Witton

Yeah.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah. So you make notes, you make note of all these things. Hold on to them.

Hannah Witton

That's so, that's so true, though, is like actually making note of those tiny improvements as well because you can often forget that it's happening because because they are so small on like a day to day level. And it could be like a few weeks and a few months, and then if you like take into the bigger picture of like, oh, today I feel infinitely better than I did three weeks ago.

Hazel Hayes

Yes.

Hannah Witton

And because you feel any small amount better than you did yesterday, you don't really notice it.

Hazel Hayes

So true.

Hannah Witton

Weird comparison, but like when I was recovering from surgery, it was like the tiniest things, every day. Maybe you found this when you broke your leg, as well, like the -

Hazel Hayes

Yeah.

Hannah Witton

The smallest things, and I had to make note of them otherwise it would just feel like I was never going to get better.

Hazel Hayes

That is so true. And that's such a good thing too like, yeah, comparing it to a physical healing I think is really good because it, you are healing from something. So like when your hearts broken, it's not a million times difference to like when your legs broken, and you have to take every small victory you have to take, well, today it hurts 2% less. And that's okay. And then tomorrow, it might hurt like hell again, like, there were days, suddenly I was in agony again, and I didn't know why. And I'm talking about both hearts and legs here. But then you'll you'll get better again, like when my therapist used to always say, and it's really stuck with me as healing isn't linear. And that goes for any kind of healing, you're going to have days where it gets rough again, and you think, oh, no, I've, I've gone back to square one. You haven't, it's completely a natural part of it. It's just you're going to come up again, you're just going to go down a few times. And it's good to know that, so when those days happen, you don't spiral.

Hannah Witton

Yeah, you're not like, oh, this is the new normal. And it's like, no it's not, it's just a blip. Just a blip. I feel like we've answered a lot of other people's questions in that. But there's this one that stood out to me. How do you know when to keep trying? Or when to call it quits? I don't think you'll ever know and you just have to make a decision. That's my gut but I don't know.

Hazel Hayes

You'll never know and you just you just have Yeah, it's quite true. I got I was listening to a podcast the other day and I wrote down, this is going to annoy me, maybe, Hannah, you can find it out, in the meantime, between when this goes out,

Hannah Witton

If we find it, we'll put it in the show notes.

Hazel Hayes

It's a term that is used actually primarily in business, but can be applied to any part of life, for when you've effectively put so much into something, It's like say you've you've you know, you've you're making a film, and you've put 100 grand behind it and then you get into post and you realise actually, there's no way this film will be good without another 100 grand of CGI. And it's like, can I put double the budget into CGI to make it happen? Or do I call it quits and just lose that 100 grand, you know what I mean? And that's actually that's like a model that that Jason Blum from Blumhouse has been talking about for years of kind of like, they will agree we're going to put this much in, and if it needs more than that, we cut we cut there, we cut and run. And that's how they kind of stayed afloat in the first few years. And that's kind of true as well in life, you know, when, whether it's a job, whether it's a relationship, whether it's even, you know, a friendship or something else going on in your life, where you feel like, oh I guess I should keep going, because I've put all this work and now, but it's not making you happy. You're not coming away feeling particularly good about it, you can't see a time in the future, when you will come away feeling good about it, the end seems far away. But you're willing to keep going because of all the efforts you've already put in.

Hannah Witton

Yeah, I think in in business, like the example that you gave of like, oh, it's gonna cost like this much. And then there's like a clear number to it, and you can measure it. But then in life and in relationships, it's so hard to know, how much more work would be required for it to be what you want it to be. But even just the acknowledgement of this isn't working, and it will require work. And then, I guess, being honest with yourself about if you want to do the work, basically. And if the other person also is like game for it as well.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah, I just remember, I just remember what it's called. It's called Sunk Cost Fallacy.

Hannah Witton

Sunk Cost, that's it. Yes.

Hazel Hayes

There it is. No, you're so you're so right. You're totally right, as well, it's about what the other person is willing to put in. Because I think sometimes, as well, it's about acknowledging like, and this is in more extreme cases, but it's acknowledging, you know, when when you are in such an unhealthy mindset, when you are only at the beginning of your journey, and you know, you've got a long way to go and you know that your behaviour is really adversely affecting your partner. Now, whether that's an addiction, or alcoholism, or cheating, or that you just cannot give them the kind of care and intimacy that they deserve. Or you're getting angry with them and you're hurting them, whatever it is, like if you feel your behaviour is affecting someone that way, I think there's also a bit of an onus on that person to decide I need to go away and work on me.

Hannah Witton

Yeah.

Hazel Hayes

And not, and not affect that person, in the meantime.

Hannah Witton

I feel like I would agree that it is on that person and they have a responsibility to call it quits. But unfortunately, I think the reality is that it is often the other person who is bearing the brunt of that

Hazel Hayes

Yeah.

Hannah Witton

Unhealthy behaviour who is the one that ultimately has to make the decision because the other person is in such an unhealthy place that they can't.

Hazel Hayes

Yeah. Particularly when you can see that, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't mean someone's bad or that they're a monster, but you know, they're really going through it and, and they're probably nice 98% of the time, they're wonderful people who you get along with brilliantly, but every once in a while, this, whatever it is, particular type of behaviour really negatively affects you, damages you, it's really difficult in that situation, and I've been in it, you know, to be the one to say, I'm going to leave because it looks like you're abandoning a person in a time of need. Particularly when that person is saying, and this is so often the case, you're right, you know, I'm gonna be better, it's gonna be different, this isn't going to happen again, let me prove it to you. I think there does have to come a time eventually, where you know, you can only give someone the benefit of the doubt so many times, and when it is really badly affecting you, you have to walk away. But I have heard of examples, and I literally only just heard of one today, where a guy was in therapy. Actually, no, it wasn't it, it was a woman in therapy dealing with her anger issues, and they were so bad that she decided to leave her partner while she dealt with them was until she could get a handle on it because she was having these outbursts at him and it just wasn't fair. So yeah, I think that that's a huge thing to decide, and I have so much respect for anyone who can do that.

Hannah Witton

Yeah, 100%.

Hazel Hayes