Censorship and Culturally Specific Sex Ed with Rayka Kumru | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. This week's episode covers a wide range of topics and they are all equally fascinating, so I hope that you enjoy. My guest today is Rayka Kumru, who is a digital sexual health expert. We met in February this year at this event we both attended and spoke at called Switched On, in Istanbul, which was hosted by UNESCO, which is the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organisation. If you're interested in learning more about that event, I did a video which is on my YouTube channel on my experience there, and what I learned from all of the different talks and speakers, which I'll link in the show notes. At Switched On, Rayka did a talk about the different types of censorship that exists, especially around sexuality and the double standards around that, which was one of my favourite sessions, and we talk about that in this episode, too. Rayka is from Turkey, and currently living in Vancouver, Canada, and she has two master's degrees. What? Like I said, we cover a lot in this episode, from what culturally appropriate sex ed means, to periods, virginity, and also this episode was recorded in June so we talked about some of the differences she's noticed in LGBTQ plus pride celebrations, and marches in Turkey, and in places like the US. As usual, you can find show notes on our website, DoingItPodcast.co.uk and join in the conversation on social media, we're @DoingItPodcast on Instagram and Twitter. If you like this podcast, please consider leaving us a nice rating and review, it always helps. Thanks so much and I hope that you enjoyed this episode.
Hello, Rayka. Thanks so much for joining me.
Rayka Kumru
Hi, Hannah. How are you?
Hannah Witton
I'm good, how are you?
Rayka Kumru
I'm good, thank you.
Hannah Witton
It feels like a lifetime ago that we met in Istanbul.
Rayka Kumru
Oh, my goodness, it probably feels that way because it was pre pandemic, and yeah, the pre pandemic world just seems like a different era.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it really does, even though, o when we were there, there were a few speakers from China who were supposed to be coming, and none of them attended and were like video calling in. But the rest of us were all there like lalalalala, this isn't affecting us.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, yeah. And I actually remember, because I flew in from Vancouver, and I remember getting on the plane with a mask, even before the conference and then coming back to Vancouver, I was still wearing a mask. But just thinking about my mentality back then I, you know, I had no idea that it would turn into something like this. And that would be the last time I would board a plane for the foreseeable future. Not that that's the most important thing, but just yeah, it puts a lot of things in perspective.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so we met at Switched On, which was a UNESCO conference all about digital sex ed and I remember my introduction to you was listening to your talk, which I would love for you to explain to our listeners, what you spoke about, and about the kind of like work and research that you do, specifically around like the double standards of social media platforms, and brands, when it comes to like advertising sex products, because that's what you spoke about and I just remember being like, oh, my goodness.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, well, I basically talked about censorship. And I something I said during my talk, which you probably will remember is, when we think of censorship, we often think about, like government imposed censorship, or like corporate corporate regulated censorship, but mostly, especially in the Turkish context, my mind automatically just goes to censorship equals government is preventing the flow of information, of some sort. But then, you know, we got to take into account that even on platforms, you know, where we think we're completely free and in control of the content that we create, we're actually not. And then, before we get to the platform, we deal with auto censorship. So folks like us who talk about sex for a living, you know, we have auto sensor systems in our brains, I feel like everybody does. And then the more culturally strict and conservative your environment, I feel like the more likely that those sort of sensors will go into effect.
Hannah Witton
So is that like self censorship? Like you're you're stopping yourself from saying anything before anyone has -
Rayka Kumru
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
- thought anything, impose anything on you. Yeah.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, it's either because you're not sure if that what you say will have negative consequences or, more often than not, you're absolutely sure that it will have negative consequences, either.
Hannah Witton
Ah yeah.
Rayka Kumru
You know, on, on your wellbeing, on your career, or sometimes on your life. So, you know, there are levels of negative consequences and how censorship affects humans. But I think, being a woman and talking about sex in Turkey, I think, even though I didn't think I had a lot of auto censorship happening in my brain, moving away from my context, I think really put a lot of things into perspective and I was like, okay, here's everything that I wasn't saying, that needs to be said. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
What, what were those things? And you you still do a lot of like, sexual health content in Turkish, are there topics that you just won't touch?
Rayka Kumru
I think I touched upon all the the topics, but I think the con, like the depths, and just the attitude that I had shifted a lot. So when I lived in Istanbul for four years, I taught in a public university. So, you know, I loved my job, I didn't want to get fired, I didn't want to, you know, be in trouble in any way. And so in the classroom, you know, I shared information and, you know, supported critical thinking to the fullest, that I thought was, you know, doable in that context. But then you, when you move away from that context, when you no longer, when your job is no longer in danger because of what you're going to say or do, then I think, I think I became more brave in the way that I said things. Like I always said the same things, perhaps, but the way I said it, which you know, the medium is the message so it matters a lot, especially in, in anything relating to sexuality.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, one of the things that immediately comes to my mind, in terms of I guess it stems from platform censorship, but because you're aware of all these different types of censorship, it does, it then seeps into self censorship, because you'd like to stop before you even start. Which is, like with YouTube, and de-monetization, just like knowing like, oh, if I make this kind of video, then it's, like, YouTube's not gonna share it as much, or -
Rayka Kumru
It's not going to get monetized.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's not gonna get monetized, and that financial kind of censorship is really tricky. Because, yeah, when you're doing this as a career, you're like, okay, this needs to be financially viable and sustainable. But, yeah, that's hard sometimes.
Rayka Kumru
Like, I think I have 12 or 13 videos on my YouTube channel, and I believe eight or nine of them are not monetized.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, sounds about right.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah. You know, I don't rely on YouTube, like YouTube isn't my career. It's a platform that I utilise for education in Turkish, and that's something that I value a lot. However, if I wanted to rely on YouTube as my career, I think it would definitely affect what I say, and how I say it, and the content that I make. Right now, if you hop on there, like it's just just sex, sex ed content. You know, but I don't know if that would be the case if, if I relied on on YouTube as my like being my sole career.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think that's also why I make a lot of lifestyle content, it's like, I enjoy that but I know that that just generally helps the business as well.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Having having some more like brand friendly, universal kind of content. Speaking of your career, how do you describe what you do? Like what are all the different facets of the digital health, sexual health worlds that you work in?
Rayka Kumru
Well, I think it has shifted a lot over the years. I started as like a traditional educator position, or my career started off as being a sexual health educator. Just like face-to-face, in schools, with private groups, or workshops.
Hannah Witton
How did you get into that? or like how did you know that was something you wanted to do?
Rayka Kumru
Well, I didn't at first. When, when I finished my my degree and then went off to my master's, I figured that I could be a good educator. Like I found myself being really interested in the methods and just the dialogues that happened in the classroom.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Rayka Kumru
And so when I moved back to Istanbul, in 2013, a school called me, I don't know how they got my name, or how they found me, but they found me and they said they wanted a parent workshop on, you know, how to talk with your kids about sexuality and sexual health. And so like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's great. Love that.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah. And, you know, I still remember how I felt on stage for the first time, and I still remember how much money I made, which was, you know, nothing, of course. But that kind of, once I was up there, I was like, okay, this is where I belong, this is what I want to do, I thought forever. But then as I, you know, worked in the field, I started getting interested in other aspects of sexual health, particularly because I started noticing how limited a person's reach was, like physically, whether it's a person or an organisation, especially in a context where you don't get funding, you don't get a lot of support. To the contrary, you get stress and, you know, constant negative feedback.
Hannah Witton
Do you mean in like, in person, sex education?
Rayka Kumru
Yes, exactly. There's only so many schools I can go to, and so many individuals that I can come into contact with. And so that's why basically, I started working on Tabukamu.com, which is one of the projects that were chosen as UNESCO's, you know, top 35 platforms from around the globe, along with your platform.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Rayka Kumru
So that's how that project came about. So then it turned into this more digital content creation, taking what's happening in the field, and bringing that into the digital space. Things like critical thinking, not just information gathering and reading about stuff, but actually, you know, thinking about certain things. I think that what was missing, and that's what's missing from our education system in general, I think, in the Turkish context. And so, that was the goal. And then of course, I had bills to pay and, and, you know, I had to make a living. So -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're like, how do I do this as my job?
Rayka Kumru
And I think that's where the consultancy piece came in. At first, it was more so about, like a concern about making a living, but then I realised that I liked it more than education, actually. Which I never thought I'd say. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's a different kind of education. You're still teaching people something.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, exactly. You're, you're teaching, well you're working with brands or organisations who have never worked in the field, like face to face with any young people, and you're telling them this is what young people, from my experiences and from the data, want to know and this is how, these are the issues that they're running into when accessing X, you know, information, or product, or service?
Hannah Witton
What kind of brands and organisations do you work with? Like, what, what is it within sexual health that they want to know? What are they trying to do?
Rayka Kumru
So some of the brands that I've worked with, it varies. Some are, some of them are in sexual health and wellness, and some of them are very completely in unrelated fields. So for example, I had an international company who had offices in Turkey, come up to me and say they needed some like visual and also written content to celebrate Pride Month. And so we collaborated on that, to create content that they needed to raise awareness within their factory, which I thought was, you know, fairly amazing.
Hannah Witton
That's cool.
Rayka Kumru
Other times I help brands understand data and what that means for them, sometimes I write content for them, sometimes we build projects together. So it completely varies, depending on the company brand and their their needs, basically.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and what, is there anything like that you've learned about sexual health from kinda like both of these sides, from the kind of like in person with young people with parents, and then kind of like seeing what brands are trying to do to push their message or push their product? What can we learn from these like two sides? Because I feel like they're both so big, like, what we learn in school, and then like, what we learn from like all of these messages and advertising and things.
Rayka Kumru
One thing that stuck, you know, hard with me is that the brands that I've worked with, don't always want to take the time to understand the culture, especially when they're international brands, and they have local offices. I think it's really, really important for them to really understand the context that they're working in. They may be from the country, they may be from the culture, but that doesn't mean they understand this, this the sexual culture. Which I think is, you know, for people who are listening who want to go into this industry, or people who are working in this industry, as you know, from the corporate perspective, or education perspective, context is the most important thing, it's more important than the information. Because if you have information and you don't deliver it in a way that's gonna make sense in that context, then that information can sometimes do more harm than good. Which unfortunately is, you know, we have a lot of examples. So I think that's the most important thing that stuck with me. Speaking of the two elements, now I'm kind of moving into a more different environment. I'm still doing consulting, but I actually work for an academic organisation now, full time. And yeah, so I do communications and knowledge translation.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice.
Rayka Kumru
And so that has brought a whole other perspective, because now you see the academic side of things, right. So what we do in this field is -
Hannah Witton
Like the research that's going on.
Rayka Kumru
Exactly. And, you know, if anything, for people who are wanting to go into this field, I think we need good communicators to communicate the research with, you know, folks working in the field, or, you know, with the brands with organisations.
Hannah Witton
This is one of the things that I remember saying, at the UNESCO event, it was like, it was like, during the like influencer panel, and someone in the audience asked, like, what do you need from us? And I was like, access to research, please.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because we, because we're the, we have the platforms, and the audience, and we can communicate that, but we don't necessarily know where to go, like, we're not in academia, so I'm like, who's doing what research, into what like?
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, and you know, it's impossible for you to know, and follo, and read, like some research is really dense, like, it's boring to read. My apologies to any academics are listening. But I think -
Hannah Witton
They'll probably agree.
Rayka Kumru
You know, I'm gonna assume and being around many scientists, they want their research to have an impact. But I think slowly, not slowly, but slowly and surely, we're moving into a world where, like you said, we can't think of knowledge translation, knowledge dissemination or information, brokerage, whatever you want to call it, without taking into account the role of influencers. Because I think, in knowledge translation, they say like, by the time research reaches practice, or the field, it takes around like 15 to 17 years or something like that.
Hannah Witton
Really?
Rayka Kumru
Which is mind boggling.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, whoa, I've never heard that before.
Rayka Kumru
I think some faster than others, but let's just, ballpark, let's just say 15 years. That's a lot.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about like sexual health and behaviours, like it takes a long time to change, like attitudes, and behaviours, and things like that.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, exactly. And it's really hard to measure how information changes behaviour too, especially when it comes to like multi dimensional topics like sexual health and sexuality in general. But I think what this number is, the 15 years, is more so say somebody does really elaborate, elaborate research on like young people's access to contraceptives in the UK, for example, and they find that there is an issue and that's X. By the time the laws, the regulations, and, you know, the stakeholders involved get a piece of that research, are able to incorporate that research into their practice. That's where the time like that's, that's the timeline we need to shorten.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Rayka Kumru
You know, I'm, I'm not really sure how influencers, influencers have affected decision making and policymaking? I think today, in this world, we're going to see how well that's going to go out. Yeah, we can't not take into account the power of influencers, when it comes to research dissemination, information dissemination. And if, as academic organisations and international organisations, we're not providing the information, then we're doing a disservice because people like you and I and other people who have platforms, we want to get the latest information, not just for like, you know, being on top of things, but also -
Hannah Witton
For being factually correct, yeah .
Rayka Kumru
Exactly. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also, it's interesting, like we're, we're in this, like in this subject area, because we also like find it really fascinating and interesting. I wanted to come back to a thing that you said before about, like, the cultural context when working with brands, because it made me think of something and I just wondered what your opinion was. It's that, ff your brand has like certain values that you uphold, in terms of things like equality and sex positivity, or like, whatever it is around these areas, but then you are like, you have a presence, so you're selling products in countries that maybe have laws that don't reflect your company's values necessarily like, how, how should brands navigate that? Are they selling out, if they don't explicitly say what their values are in countries, so that they can just sell that product? Or should they, is it responsible to adapt for different places? Does this make sense?
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, it does. You know, what I want to say is, when there's a will, there's a way. And you and I -
Hannah Witton
You mean in terms of capitalism on this one?
Rayka Kumru
No, No. Well, I guess, no, what I mean, is if a brand wants to be socially responsible, and still, you know, keep an account, then they need to sell obviously, in order to survive. They can do those two things together, there are a lot of brands that are able to do that. Just last week, a brand in Turkey, Decathlon, it's a sports brand, they announced that, you know, they would always stand with pride, and that they would celebrate Pride Month and the the celebrates human beings for who they are, and they got a lot of backlash but at the same time, they got a lot of support. And I genuinely believe they're not doing this from sort of a marketing perspective. Of course, it has marketing value. But that's not to say that that's their core reason, because I know people who work for this company and all of their experiences internally, they feel like reflect the brands, the way that the brand represents itself in the public eye as well. So it's not like they're posting this, you know, fake pride thing, and then internally, they're homophobic to the core. I think people can see through that now, when brands post certain things, I feel like, for the past couple of weeks, with the Black Lives Matter protests happening, and with the way social media and individuals are reacting, and I'm not by no means an expert, and I on this subject matter, so I'm trying to be very cautious as to what I say. But as someone who's white passing, I'm seeing brands that have never before shared anyone, or any content, that was either produced by a black person, or produced by, you know, any other person than themselves or white folks.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Rayka Kumru
Suddenly becoming really. and I see this in quotes. really "woke" and aware of what's happening. I think, with with sexuality, I know it's not the same thing but just to give an example that people, we can see through it now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Rayka Kumru
And I think the specific group at play always managed to see it, see through it. But I think now everybody is able to see through it.
Hannah Witton
People are drawing attention to it a lot more and holding these brands accountable.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, I think so, I think so. Like we, hopefully a lot of people can tell that, you know, X organisation, or X brand, doesn't really care about group X, but they're just doing this because they want to sell products. And you see that a lot with, you know, feminism, and, you know, in quotes, like female empowerment, or even things like trans rights. You see companies that do not value, or have never hired a trans person, suddenly sell t-shirts, I say trans rights are human rights. And while that's important, that's a very important and critical message to communicate. But then it's like you're taking advantage of a specific group that you have never come into contact with before.
Hannah Witton
Mm hmm.
Rayka Kumru
So -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think we can see these double standards, just yeah, through through countless things I know. Like because it, as we're recording this, it is Pride Month, and, you know, pre, pre COVID when they would be parades you'd have, you know, massive corporations with sponsored floats on the Pride march, but then a lot of people getting mad about the things that they are doing that are either harmful to the LGBTQ plus community, or the things that they are silent on or not doing for the rest of the year.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
And it's like suddenly for this one month, every year, all of these brands, you know, change their logos to rainbows.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah. And in all honesty, I've attended Pride marches, For us it's not a parade, it's a march or a protest in Istanbul. I've attended once in 2012, and then another one a year after, I think it was six years ago, and I almost got, like I was gassed and had like water cannons poured my way.
Hannah Witton
What, what are the laws and in Turkey, around LGBTQ plus rights.
Rayka Kumru
It's, so being LGBTQ is not criminalised. Like you're not going to be thrown into jail for, for being gay, and this is the case in some countries around the world. But I would say we don't have laws that protect LGBTQ folks against hate crime. I don't want to speak for a group that I don't, you know, myself identify as being a part of but identify as an ally and I and I tried to do incorporate being an ally into the every day work that I do. However, although legally, there doesn't seem to be much like negative sentiment, in practice, there is a lot. Yeah, there's there's no law or, or structures in place that protect LGBT folks, or make access easier for them. There are a lot of amazing organisations working for LGBTQ rights, and they have been for many, many years. But it's still a struggle. So for me to attend a Pride parade in North America, I've attended one in Austin, and I've attended Vancouver.
Hannah Witton
Is it just completely different?
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, I was like, for me, I was thinking and maybe this is just my vice, I was like, where are all the people? I was like, what, who are these like companies? I, for me, it was just like, okay, like, I Amazon coming through like, okay, like Facebook coming through or like, okay, Converse coming through. And, and I and I know people represent those companies like I know that. But I think, just to put things in a cultural context, Pride parades or Pride protests look very, very different, depending on where you are in the world. And for me, it was, it was a surprise to see so many corporate identities being represented. I'm not saying this as a good thing or a bad thing. I was just surprised.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's interesting, like how Pride has developed over the years. And now that at least I guess, the same in the UK, as the US it would seem like, that is now like the norm for it. Is that, yeah, you expect these like the corporate floats, I guess.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So one of the other things that you do in terms of one of your projects that's in Turkish, was your period stories website. And because obviously, I do a lot of stuff with periods and contraception with the Hormone Diaries, I was curious to chat with you about like, what is, as you were saying, like the cultural context around periods, and menstruation in, in Turkey? Like, what are the kinds of stories that people tell you about? Is there a massive stigma still, or, you know, how things looking?
Rayka Kumru
When, when I was a kid people like, we don't we didn't have a lot of supermarkets like super large markets, we call them bakkals. They're like very small, sort of, like convenience stores. And when I would buy pads from from these stores, and this is like a very typical practice, they would wrap it in newspaper first, like the package, and then put it in black plastic bag.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow. So so you couldn't see what you had?
Rayka Kumru
Exactly
Hannah Witton
Wow, yeah.
Rayka Kumru
Exactly. So that's just like, a very brief anecdote from my childhood. In terms of period experiences, I think it's really, really hard to generalise the Turkish experience, just because we're very diverse, diverse country, in terms of cultural makeup, religious belief, whether or not specific cities are, you know, more developed than others, in terms of economic or health access. I think all of these things like there, there are a lot of disparities across the country. Like if I took you to a specific place in Istanbul versus, you know, we could drive for an hour, I'll take you to another place and you won't even recognise where you are. Like, think places are so different, even within large cities. And so it's even more diverse across the country. We're a country of, you know, 80 something million, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Huge, yeah, I remember when we were there, and I was like, looking up the population of Turkey and Istanbul, and I was just like, oh, my goodness.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, it's, it's pretty huge. And so to answer your story, there's, yes, there's still stigma, period stigma. There's still a lot of issues around equity and access to menstrual products, we pay taxes on them. Menstrual cups and, like washed reusable pads are, I would say they've been around for a while in Turkey, but just maybe this year or the like last year, a lot of people started talking about them and actually started using them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like they've only come on my radar in the last few years as well.
Rayka Kumru
And I think, perhaps what's different than, or maybe an added barrier, is the concept of virginity. I think a lot of young menstruators shy away from using tampons, or menstrual cups, because they're afraid that's gonna in, and I say this in quotes, sort of rid them of their virginity, or break their hymen or, you know, somebody will know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Rayka Kumru
So, I think I would say that's one of the top top barriers to access to specific products. And of course, there's nothing wrong with using a pad. However, it definitely limits your options, if you have, you know, added barriers on top of social stigma, or, you know, women being considered, or menstruators being considered dirty, or not allowed to participate in certain aspects of social life or family life. I would say this is not an issue, as much, in like larger cities, or amongst maybe people who are going to university or, you know, working in professional life or whatever. But this is not to say, like, stigma just shifts a facade, it's still there. In one household it might be, you know, you can't sit with us because you're on your period. And another context, it might be like, I'm not gonna have sex with you, because you're on your period. Like there's, there's stigma.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and it all it's all like rooting from the same place, but it just manifests slightly differently dependent, yeah, like you said, depending on the context and people's backgrounds and stuff.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah, I think so. And, you know, in like cultural communications around periods, I think, especially from very like from ethnocentric perspectives, sometimes when they're written and produced, I see that the global East or whatever you want to call it is sometimes seen as having more stigma around bodies and sexuality. However, I don't always agree. It's the same with not just within a specific country, but across the globe. I think stigma just shifts, it just changes. So for example, I was appalled when I heard this term, passion, passion killings, or passion, murder or passionate, what I'm referring to is like when a partner murders their partner for like cheating on them, or in quotes, because they were so in love. In the North American context, when I heard of this, I was like, that's an honour killing, like, what you mock, or, you know, belittle specific cultures for having honour killings, you have the same thing. That doesn't make it better, of course. But that's just to say, just because the name changes, doesn't mean the root of it changes. They're the same thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, in the UK as well, like, you know, we've got really high rates of domestic abuse and domestic violence. And yeah, like you said, it's not the same thing, and it's all bad. But you're right, like, this, the stigma, and the, you know, misogyny just shifts slightly.
Rayka Kumru
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Well, what a fun note.
Rayka Kumru
To finish on
Hannah Witton
To finish on. No, but I actually one more question, you've got like two master's degrees, and have like, worked in sexual health and like digital sexual health in lots of different ways. And I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast, and also a lot of people who follow me online, are like looking to be sex educators or like on that journey of, you know, like wanting to make a career out of this. So like, what, what would be your advice or like, just maybe something that you learned along the way and how you did it.
Rayka Kumru
The one advice that I would give is the field of sexuality and sexual health is so broad, so folks who are interested in this, but not sure if they want to become educators, because being an educator is like a whole other thing on its own. I just want them to know that there, you can study whatever it is that you want, and still find a way to tackle talk about, and work in the field of sexuality. You can study biology and do this, you can study anthropology and do this, you can study communications and do this. But for folks who are wanting to become educators, I would just say this is, there's no such thing as, okay, now I know everything that I need to know to become an educator. I think personal and professional development are so so crucial. I think it's crucial in any career, but I think, like the terms that that I learned in university as an undergrad, and that wasn't that long ago, are so different than how we talk about sexuality and human beings in general today. So, you know, read recent research, if you are a believer in formal education, which I know formal education has issues with it, but, you know, I think it gives a very solid environment to tackle some of the issues that you wouldn't be able to tackle elsewhere. And just doing a lot of informal education, so being a part of groups, organisations, and constantly learning, I think that would be my advice.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, I really feel you on the, it is, it is just like this constant learning process and at no point you're like, I'm now qualified.
Rayka Kumru
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That that point where you're like, I did it, I have become a sex educator, like that will never like you might not never, ever feel that but like, if you're doing it, then you are a sex educator. And you know, you're, you're doing the work. Rayka, thank you so much for your insight, for your time.
Rayka Kumru
Thank you for inviting me. It was so wonderful to talk to you. And yeah, I hope we can do this again soon. Maybe not recorded, but you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No. 100%. Alright, thank you so much.
Rayka Kumru
Thank you. Bye
Hannah Witton
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a global original podcast.