Painting Hundreds of People's Vulvas with Hilde Atalanta | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hilde Atalanta
I also learned that there is a wide variety of stories related to vulva's. So it can be positive stories, it can be sexual stories, it can be really negative experiences. And I started to appreciate the vulva and like, its strength.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hey everyone, welcome back to Doing It.
So this is first episode that I'm recording remotely, now that we are all stuck inside, and social distancing, and in lockdown. I hope that you enjoyed the episode last week with my partner, Dan. I actually have a Patreon and Patrons get these Doing It podcast episodes a day early. But also, a while ago, I set a goal of, if I reached 600 Patreons, then Dan and I would start a Patreon only podcast. So if you liked the episode from last week, then you will probably like the podcast that we're going to start doing over on my Patreon. I recently hit 600 patrons so we are working on making that happen. But this episode, I'm so excited to share with you this conversation with Hilde Atalanta who is the creator of The Vulva Gallery.
The Vulva Gallery is a Instagram account, and a community, Hilda does these amazing watercolour illustrations of vulva's! You guessed it. They did a successful Kickstarter campaign as well to create a book celebrating vulva diversity. So in this episode, we talk about why they started The Vulva Gallery, talking about different body diversity and inclusivity. We talk, a lot, about vulva's, obviously. We talk about labia's, pubes, and the clitoris. We talk about how Hilde's drawings can be and have been used for sex education with people of all different ages, including young kids, we talk about what's normal, what is normal in the genital area. And also I learnt a bit about the Dutch language, and what words are used to describe pubic hair and genitals, which is fascinating and really sad at the same time, you have to listen to hear it. And we also talk about how censorship on Instagram when you're making content that might be deemed by some as sexual. And you get a little story about me when I was 10, and I thought that my protruding labia was in fact a penis. And if that doesn't prove that body diversity, representation, and education is necessary, then I don't know what will. So I really hope that you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much to Hilde up for coming on the podcast, and doing this recording remotely. Hilde is also based in Amsterdam, so how great is that, that we can have these conversations in different countries now as well. All of the links to The Vulva Gallery, and the book, and everything will be in the description and in the show notes. And I hope that you enjoy this episode.
Hi, Hilde, thank you so much for talking with me on the podcast.
Hilde Atalanta
Hey, Hannah. Thanks so much for having me.
Hannah Witton
This is the first one I'm doing remotely. So it feels strange to me not to like be in person and like obviously, like see your face and stuff. But we're gonna have a great chat, and I'm really excited to dive into like, all of the stuff that you do and all the work that you do with illustrating, and vulva's and, like body diversity, and everything. I think it's amazing. Do you want to just chat us through like, how The Vulva Gallery like came about?
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, of course. So well, I started The Vulva Gallery in summer 2016. And I started that just a while after I attended a lecture. I was actually studying psychology before I became an illustrator.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, clinical psychology here at the university in Amsterdam. And I follow a sexuality minor and I was at this lecture where someone spoke about the huge global growth in labia plastic surgeries. So that's a surgery to alter the size of the, usually the inner labia, to make them smaller. And I was astonished to hear that it was such a fast-growing surgery, and it struck me and I was wondering also like, why why do so many young, mostly girls, women feel the need to alter their labia? And then I started looking online to see how is diversity of our vulva's represented and there were not so many imagery projects available. And yeah, I it sort of made me think like, what's missing? Sexual education doesn't really speak about diversity, and then I thought after a while, well, you know what, I'm just going to make it available. And I'm going to start an Instagram account and post one vulva illustration every day, to make sure that the diversity gets out there and reaches the people who need to see it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so cool that you were doing psychology with a sexuality minor as well, I didn't realise that. That's so cool. And I think like what you're saying about the diversity and like, not knowing where to go to, like, see that the huge breadth of like, what vulva's look like. Even if you did get like good sex ed in school, and your teacher was like, vulva's come in all different shapes, sizes and colours, and like labour is all different lengths, and they can be asymmetrical. Even if you're told that like in school, they're not going to, you know, show you like a bunch of photos of vulva's, maybe they will, but like, I really, I think illustration, I think is a really cool way to, I guess make it accessible.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, definitely. That was also one of the choices for me to make illustrations, and I don't know how it's in England. But here in the Netherlands, it's even prohibited to show a photographic material of genitalia in sexual health education classes,
Hannah Witton
Oh really?
Hilde Atalanta
And you can't even show that to your students.
Hannah Witton
I thought the Netherlands was super progressive!
Hilde Atalanta
I thought so too!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, when I was in school, we were shown genitals in our like, sex ed class, but it was like the STI lesson. And it was all genitals that got extreme and untreated STIs. So it was very much like fear mongering, like you don't want your genitals to look like this and like, really not helping the stigma around STIs. So that was my experience of seeing other genitals, I think maybe other than like, my parents, you know, like for the first time, which wasn't great. When you first started doing these illustrations, was it just from your like imagination? Or was it real people? And because the book that eventually like came from the Instagram account, that is all real people, and their real stories, isn't it?
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. When I first started, it was indeed, from my imagination. From my knowledge that I had about anatomy. And I made variations on on that. The first illustrations were super, super simple. I quickly ran out of inspiration because, yeah, there's just so much you can think of. And then I started looking for imagery online. And I realised that most images of vulvas are from like, a bottom perspective. So like, spread, you know, like a flower. And I'm painting all the vulva's in The Vulva Gallery standing up straight, with legs closed, like, as if you're standing in front of a mirror. So that's the perspective most of us know from ourselves. And to me, that was a very conscious choice. Because to me, I feel that that perspective is less sexual, and it's, it's something we're all familiar with.
Hannah Witton
I hadn't realised that. Yeah, but looking yeah, looking at your Instagram page, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's all like, front on.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Not as if it was like you're in between somebody's legs.
Hilde Atalanta
Exactly. And yeah, I think that that perspective, is, yeah, it's how you stand in front of the mirror, look at yourself and think, oh, my gosh, am I normal? And that that question I wanted to address with the project, and to show vulva's from the front of perspective and show, yeah, you're all normal, there is no normal vulva or in fact, you know, because they're so diverse. Diversity is normal. So yeah, I started looking online for photos. And they're there, I found some, but I think after a while, like, about a year or so in the project, I started receiving emails and DMs of people, from around the world, asking like, oh, can I become part of The Vulva Gallery?
Hannah Witton
That's amazing!
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. And that was so cool. And then I thought, well, you know what, I think I think this is, we're onto something because if I portray real people, the message comes across so much stronger because it's real diversity. And people wanted to share their stories also, like some thoughts, or some experiences, related to their vulva insecurities, or like how they overcame their insecurities. And yeah, it to me that felt like yeah, this is, I don't know, it felt like coming home, you know. It's so much stronger when different voices share their experience. Instead of me saying, oh, you're all great and normal, people who struggled a lot and finding their way in to accepting their bodies, it's so much stronger to read a personal experience. So I'm, I'm so happy that I'm able to paint real portraits.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And what was, was there anything that you learned whilst doing these projects, in terms of anything that not necessarily shocks you and people's stories or the things that you learned from like, maybe the response that you got, but something that you just didn't know before?
Hilde Atalanta
I've learned, I learned so many things. I mean, not only diversity in like shapes and sizes and pubic hair, but just the mere fact that everyone has their own history with, in relationship to their vulva. So most of the people I portray have known insecurities, and it doesn't even matter what their vulva looks like, even if it's like the most common shape we usually see portrayed in textbooks. Most people have been insecure, that was interesting to me was like, oh, well, in fact, you know, feeling insecure is part of being human, I think. And I also learned that there is a wide variety of stories related to vulva's. So it can be positive stories, it can be sexual stories, it can be really negative experiences. And I started to appreciate the vulva and like, its strength, much more, and it also changed my look on people, like when I walk on the street now, I think, yeah, I will, like, you all have a story, right? And, yeah.
Hannah Witton
I thought you're gonna say like, when you see people walking down the street, you're like, and I wonder what their vulva looks like? I wouldn't judge you if that was the case.
Hilde Atalanta
No, sometimes I think when I walk in the street, like, oh, perhaps I've painted you. It's funny because yeah, I don't know. I don't know who I'm painting. I'm yeah, it's all anonymous. But yeah, I think that's that's in relationship to the stories. There's one thing that struck me, in a more negative way, I think. And that's the stories I've heard of people who visited there, I don't know what it's called in English, like their their gynaecologist or their -
Hannah Witton
Oh, like their GP?
Hilde Atalanta
GP, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. The doctor. Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
Yes, or like a pap smear or checkup. I mean, some of the experiences are really great, where they felt insecure, and their doctor comforted them. But there have been several stories being shared with me, where the person laid down, their legs open, feeling very vulnerable. And then after the consult, the doctor came to them and patted their shoulder and said, well, you know, it's easy to fix this, we can solve the problem.
Hannah Witton
What? Ah.
Hilde Atalanta
Suggesting that the person needed a surgery to alter the size of their labia and it just makes me so mad.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I don't know what it's like in other countries, but in the UK, you are allowed to file official complaints against doctors. So that would be something that if it was like happening in the UK, if someone felt like really hurt by a comment like that, from a medical professional, I would just be like, complain.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, I suppose you could. But you know, often these, I want to say these surgeries happened in private clinics. But these doctor's checkups are just in general, like in hospitals or in doctors practices. So yeah, I suppose you could file a complaint. But I don't think it's like that in every country. I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, probably not. I don't know. But that's because that's like the one place where you're like, so, you're so vulnerable. You'd like literally just like showing this person who's supposed to be like looking out for your health, like your genitals, your like legs spread, like they're the person, like in that scenario, there's a huge power imbalance because you're the one who's not got any trousers on. And they're the one that has like the medical knowledge.
Hilde Atalanta
Exactly. And the person you take their opinion very seriously. They know all about vulvas, they are like specialised, and then they see hundreds of them each month or something like that. So if they say there's something wrong with your vulva, it must be true, especially if you're young or insecure, like if you're an 18 year old. You don't want to hear that, you want to be comforted. And even even more if you don't even express your feelings of insecurity, and the person says it then, like one story has been shared with me where the person says, yeah, told me they said, I visited the doctor and I didn't even share. I didn't feel insecure about my labia, I just have big inner labour. And then I got surgery recommended by my GP and I was so angry because they suddenly made me feel insecure or they, you know -
Hannah Witton
They suddenly turned something that wasn't a problem into a problem.
Hilde Atalanta
Exactly. And that's, it's just all wrong. And I feel that medical health professionals have the responsibility to educate, and to refer their patients to platforms where they can see diversity or like to comfort them and say, you know, we don't have to cut your labia, there's so many other solutions to make you feel good about yourself.
Hannah Witton
Do you have any positive stories from doing The Vulva Gallery, and also the book that like have really stood out to you?
Hilde Atalanta
Oh, my gosh, yes, so many positive stories. I mean, we're receiving 100's of stories in my inbox every day.
Hilde Atalanta
Oh yay!
Hilde Atalanta
I think the first experience I had where I felt so blown away, was quite at the beginning of the gallery. And I always said, at the start, if I can make someone feel confident about the way they look, I've succeeded. And then one day, I got an email from a young woman from the UK, and she wrote to me, I was, up till today, feeling so incredibly insecure about my vulva and my inner labia. up to the point that I have a surgery scheduled. Then I discovered The Vulva Gallery, and I've been scrolling through the images crying and realising that I'm not weird. I'm actually normal, and I can start to accept myself, and I just cancelled my surgery. And hooray, you saved me £3000.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow, what a success story.
Hilde Atalanta
It was so emotional, because I thought, wow, you know, there's so much power in illustrations, in imagery, in just conveying a message through this medium.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
So yeah, this was not the only story. Many surgeries have been cancelled since then. And it's incredible, every time I receive a message like that, my heart jumps.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
And that's, that's so interesting that that's like something that stands out to you as like, the like, lovely, positive messages and the impact that you're having. Because that was like, the reason why you started it in the first place.
Hannah Witton
That's so cool. I wanted to ask about, because you mentioned that it's anonymous, but do people send in photos? Or do they describe what their vulva looks like?
Hilde Atalanta
All portraits are based on photos, so people email me. So I'm, I mean, I'm in contact with them, so in that way, it's not fully anonymous. Fully anonymous would also not be possible because I need consent. And I need to know that the person is 18 years of age or like, grown up.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, good point.
Hilde Atalanta
Age, and, but I'm sharing all the stories on the platform anonymously.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
But yeah, all all participants share a photo of their vulva with me, and then I'll paint it.
Hannah Witton
What is your favourite area of the vulva to paint?
Hilde Atalanta
Oh, I never received that question before!
Hannah Witton
Is it the labia? Is it the pubes?
Hilde Atalanta
Actually don't like a pubes because it's a lot of work. I'm dealing with watercolour paint, and I use the tiniest, tiniest pencil for like brush for the pubic hair. So it's, it's if someone has a lot of pubes, it's like, big, big job for me to finish. I love the labia, actually. And especially if someone has protruding inner labia, with a lot of wrinkles, I really love to detailing and just, you know, creating illustration that conveys the character of the vulva well, if you can say like that.
Hannah Witton
The character of the vulva, I love that.
Hilde Atalanta
Right? I mean, all, like, just like our faces, our vulva's have a character as well. And some are, like, shy and some are quirky, and some are like sticking out their tongue, and it's just a lot of fun. I think that's what I enjoy most, just the different characters that I'm painting.
Hannah Witton
Has doing this project had an impact on your own body image and body confidence?
Hilde Atalanta
Uh, yeah, I think it has. I mean, painting all these different body types. I'm also running another project, on Instagram, called Your Welcome Club, and, yeah, my work in general is about body diversity, inclusivity, and just celebrating our differences. And I think both The Vulva Gallery and Your Welcome Club are definitely having a positive influence on how I see myself. As I'm showing the beauty in bodies that are usually being put aside as not so beautiful or -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
Not worthy, or not valid. And especially when I'm portraying people who embrace their body, when it's the body type that is usually being satisfied as a, quote unquote, ugly. If someone feels powerful about that body type, it reflects positively on how I see myself. And I know I'm a thin, white, able bodied person. So in that regards, I, I think I have, I'm very privileged, but I, I'm definitely insecure about certain body parts. And just hearing other people being joyful about their body, definitely opened a door in my mind to think like, yeah, why would I criticise myself so harshly? And I, I should just, you know, at least appreciate it for what it gives me and not look at my body as a thing of beauty all the time. But just as a thing that carries me around and helps me go where I need to go. And that's, that's definitely worth the world.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've seen a lot of people kind of talking about bodies in that way as well, where it's like, you don't have to enthusiastically love everything about your body, like all of the time, like, that's maybe not attainable for everybody or not, like sustainable to be that enthusiastic, like 24/7. But yeah, like, understanding what your body for, like, what it is and what it does, and putting less emphasis on how it looks. But obviously, if if you manage to get to a place where you love how your body looks, then also great.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, definitely. But it shouldn't be depending on how other people think about you. So -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly.
Hilde Atalanta
I think it's a, it's more than just being beautiful in the eyes of others that we need to work on, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's not just in the eyes of others. It's like, it's it's like one specific other, which is like patriarchal capitalism, which has like a very specific idea of like, what beautiful is.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
What's the You're Welcome Club? Please explain more about that.
Hilde Atalanta
Oh, yeah. So You're Welcome Club is an illustration project that I started in 2017. And I started that after a while of running The Vulva Gallery, where I felt like, oh, I want to talk about so much more like in the stories that have been shared about, with me. So far with The Vulva Gallery, people are also talking about other body parts. And I feel really strongly about, you know, portraying the individuals that aren't usually being portrayed in like popular media. So, and I felt I couldn't do that with The Vulva Gallery, because obviously, it's only about vulva's. So I started You're Welcome Club, and that's illustrations that show all kinds of body types, and people of different backgrounds, and able bodied people, but also not able body or less able bodied people and talk about sexuality, sexual diversity, relationship variations, so just everything that I want to see in the popular media or like, yeah, representing those that aren't usually represented, and hopefully, reaching those who feel like oh, wow, yeah, that's what I needed to see today.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that sounds completely up my street. So The Vulva Gallery, you did a big Kickstarter campaign to do a book, which was hugely successful. Why, why did you decide that that was something that you wanted to do? And, and tell us a bit more about, like how that all came about.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, sure. So after a while of running The Vulva Gallery, I felt like I really love the internet. I love Instagram, I love the, you know, the reach you can have. But I also know that it doesn't reach everyone. And I want my material to be a part of every household, every school, every gynaecology or therapist practice, libraries, like it's just material that needs to be out there, available to people like to include it in their sexual health education. Like if you talk about diversity with your kids, it's easy to flick through a book, or it's fun to you know, give it and to be able to just see it up close and like touch it. And there's something about a book that just a screen doesn't have. So I wanted to create a book, with illustrations ,with the personal stories, but also just take it a step further. So in in the past years, I've heard so many myths about vulva's that are untrue and damaging. Yeah, I, for the book, I collaborated with a group of sexual health professionals from all over the world who helped me debunk those myths and -
Hannah Witton
Oh, brilliant.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, it's it's really, I'm so happy to have been able to include that in the book to show that, yeah. There's so much more positive positivity related to our vulva's. Yeah, and there's an essay or two. It's just full of anatomy as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, anatomy 101.
Hilde Atalanta
Yes, exactly. And yeah, just that and that's me, as I would have loved to see it in, in my classes when I was a teenager, just not one single diagram of a pink, hairless, vulva. And, but instead, like, I think it's eight or nine different vote was seen from below, with different, you know, skin tones, and with or without pubic hair, with longer inner labia, or with bigger clitoris, or so it's like, just the stuff we need to see in sexual health education. Yeah, and to do that, to create that, I wanted to do that together with The Vulva Gallery community. So I did a Kickstarter campaign, and I think almost a year ago, yeah, the book was long.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I was having a look at your website, and like, where you can get buy the book, and then like, a bunch of other goodies that you have. And I noticed a game. So you basically invented, or adapted, a card game to make it about vulvas.
Hilde Atalanta
Yes.
Hannah Witton
I am a big fan of vulva's, and I'm a big fan of card games. So I feel like this is just like the hybrid of like, my happy place. Please explain the game, because I want everyone wants to hear about it.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. So it's I wanted to create a game that that you could use, you know, alongside the book, or like in your classes, or with your kids. A more playful approach to sex education. The game basically is based on Go Fish, you know that?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
Like collect sets of four cards. And like there are categories. And then basically have categories, categories, now how do you?
Hannah Witton
Categories.
Hilde Atalanta
Categories, like pubic hair, or inner labia, or what else? like itchy vagina. So you say like, can you give me, do you have from the category itchy vagina, like yeast infection. And then the other person, if they have it, they have to hand it over to you, o you can like collect your set.
Hannah Witton
You collect your set.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. And each topic has two or three lines with information about that subject. So it's informative, and it's funny and a bit silly to play with, like your friends or family.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I absolutely love it. The only, like, game of Go Fish that I remember like having as a kid was, when I think about it, it's just so like binary because the categories were like all of these different families. So it was like the Butcher, the Baker's the, you know, like they all have different jobs. And it was like Mr, Mrs, Miss, and master. So you had to collect like the mum, the dad, and the boy, and the girl. And so now I'm like, oh, yeah, no, the vulva diversity one would be much better.
Hilde Atalanta
The Vulva game is right up your alley.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I was wondering like, if there's any patterns that you noticed in like, the way that people describe their vulva's? Was there any any like common threads, like words that like a lot of people would you use to describe them? Do like lots of people, I guess, think that their vulva is too big, too small, wrinkly, hairy. Do people tend to kind of have an, I guess an emotional response to describing their vulva rather than being like, it is two centimetres wide.
Hilde Atalanta
Definitely, yeah, I think a lot of the descriptions are related to it being too big. The inner labia being too long, in general, the whole vulva being ugly, too hairy, too dark. Like inner labia being brown. People are really worried that that's not normal, well, it is very normal in fact. Or just overall area being darker than the rest of your body, which is also perfectly normal. But yeah, it's it's never, sometimes it's too small, people don't have in labia that are visible, or that are just so tiny that it's not visible. They're afraid that it's too tiny or too childlike. In general, vulva's with small inner labia are being seen as common shapes, or like more more like prettier, not by me, but you know by how people generally speak about it. So if you have a long inner labia, people usually find that they are too long, and they don't realise that more than half of all vulva's have inner labia that are longer than the outer labia.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I remember, I don't even remember when I first learned about that. But I do remember being maybe like 9 or 10 years old, and that was I think when I first became aware of like my genitals, in a different way than before. And I noticed that I had one labia that was like longer than the other, and kind of and protruded and came out. And because I didn't know what it was, I had no idea, I thought I had a penis. Like, but I thought I had like a really small, weird penis. What that does to a 10 year old. It was just so strange. And obviously, I felt like I couldn't tell anyone about my secret penis. I have no memory of then how I then learned that it was actually just a labia.
Hilde Atalanta
Your story is definitely, you're not the first one telling me this.
Hannah Witton
Oh really? Oh my God, I feel so seen!
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, I mean, it's quite quite common that kids like their bodies are developing, and they haven't learned about their vulva growing as well. But that's normal. And then inner labia starts to grow or, for example, the clitoris starts to grow and then they're super afraid that they're growing a penis, and they don't dare to talk about it with anyone.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God.
Hilde Atalanta
Their friends, who they might have seen naked during swimming, changing, they don't have it, or even friends made remarks about it, or you you might have seen your mum and she doesn't have it, and you don't know who to talk to. You're fully convinced that you have a weirdest vulva in the world, and you don't know that it's just normal.
Hannah Witton
I can't tell you how, like, relieved I feel right now. I obviously like, I think in my rational brain, I was like, surely some other people have had this thought process before when they were a child and first discovering their genitals. But that's so cool that you've heard stories from people also thinking that their protruding labia was maybe a penis. Because I thought it was interesting when we were talking about the game, you were like, oh, you could play it with like, kids as well. And I think they'll definitely be people who have a problem with that. But if I was like 9/10 years old, and having this inner turmoil about my labia penis, then obviously the education needed to come before that.
Hilde Atalanta
Yes. That's that's definitely a good point you're touching upon right now. Because sexual health education is often aimed at, you know, making sure people don't get pregnant, don't get STI s. And that's it. And it starts where people enter, like kids enter puberty, because then they might become sexually active. But sexual health education should start from a very young age on even, you know, I don't want to say toddlers, but very young kids have bodies and relate to their bodies and see that they have a penis, or a vulva, or an intersex genital, and it's so important for parents to talk to their kids about their bodies, and not say like, that's an ear, that's a hand, that's a knee, and then just ignore the whole other part.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, right! It's just like, we're gonna name every part of your body, and then that's your woowoo.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, also for me, when I started The Vulva Gallery, I know that most people say vagina, but vagina is just the birth canal, or like the canal leading up to your uterus.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and that's not what you're drawing. You can't even see the vagina in your drawings!
Hilde Atalanta
And the vulva is everything on the outside, but most people don't know that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
And I mean, all these things you know, not knowing the right words, being afraid that are vulva's are too big, it's all related to history. We've been taught that also shame we've been taught to be ashamed of ourselves, to cover ourselves, in the Netherlands pubic hair is called schaamhaar, which translates to shame hair.
Hannah Witton
What? Is that like a slang word for it, or the actual word for it?
Hilde Atalanta
Actual word.
Hannah Witton
Woah.
Hilde Atalanta
And the actual word is shame hair.
Hannah Witton
Language is so interesting.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. Yeah, we don't say genital area, but shame area.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Hilde Atalanta
So if you, if that's so, so much part of your language, how can you just be without shame. And if you don't teach kids that, you know, it's okay to touch yourself, just don't do it around others, but don't be ashamed of your sexuality. It's all fine and natural, and your body will grow. There's a lot of diversity. Look, here's some images. You can do that with a seven year old kid, to show them illustrations of this is what your body can evolve to be, or if you meet someone that has a body like that, don't make fun of it. Just you know, respect their diversity. And sexual health education should be one moment in a person's life, it should be recurring every year, but just with different tools, related to what a person needs at that age.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like as and when people are asking questions and kids are so curious about genitals as well. They're like, what's that?
Hilde Atalanta
Definitely, yeah, young kids as well, I am so happy, also, to know that parents are using my illustrations and The Vulva Gallery material, the book, with their young kids, to show them, to teach them about their bodies. And like, I think yesterday, I received a message of a parent and they said, like, yeah, I've been using your illustrations to talk about body diversity with my seven year old daughter, and she's super intrigued by the vulva cats, because I that's logo of The Vulva Gallery, and it's it comes on and off. It appears in the gallery like a pussycat like, a vulva that has a face of a cat.
Hannah Witton
Ahhh, I love that
Hilde Atalanta
And her daughter is like, oh, Mum, look at a cat. That's a funny cat. And then the mom used that to, to open up conversation. Like, yeah, in fact, that's not only a cat, it's also a vulva, it's like what you have. And look, there and there. And this is what it can look like. And so it was like, really nice way through, like, it doesn't have to be about sex, you know, sexual health.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
There's so many roads you can take, and so many ways to talk about sexuality with your young kid, without it being like penis and vagina. Which 10 year olds are usually not at all ready for.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I find the kids also will self censor. Like, I remember watching a movie when I was younger, and there was like a kiss in it. And it was like a very heavy tongue snog. And I was so grossed out by it. I was like, urgh, you know, like, put it away! And so I just think that like kids will like develop differently in terms of their like interest, and curiosity, and in different things and their readiness to learn about stuff. But it, yeah, completely, like, when you talk about things like bodies and genitals, it's not necessarily sexual. But we I think we have this like, obsession of, in society, that like nudity equals sex.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. Big problem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
Oh, our bodies, I mean, it can be, but it doesn't have to be. If our bodies are always sexualized, just like breasts, it doesn't have to be sexual. And you know, breastfeeding your baby doesn't have anything to do with sex. It's nurturing and, you know, supporting life.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. A naked bum, it doesn't have to be sex and being half naked doesn't mean that you want sex. I mean, it's, it can be related, but it doesn't have to be.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, not necessarily. This chat is just made me think about, like censorship and stuff on Instagram. You mentioned breasts, and obviously, like, you can't show female nipples, whatever that means, on Instagram. And even though obviously, your vulva's are illustrations, but have you ever experienced any takedowns or anything from like Instagram, or just or from other social media platforms where you've put your work?
Hilde Atalanta
I am only using Instagram, in regards to social media. Twice with The Vulva Gallery. Once, in very first beginning, an illustration was taken down when the project was just developing, and I think the community wasn't yet so aware of what it was about, or perhaps, you know, people were confused and like, oh, it's vulva's, we need to report it. It was taken down and I reuploaded it and stated like, yeah, following the guidelines, because nudity in art is allowed.
Hannah Witton
Ah.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah, it's not a photo, so it's okay. And it's not sexual, and it's educational. So it's, it's following the guidelines perfectly. And then I think, a year and a half ago, yeah, the whole account was taken down for a day. And that was, that that struck me because I woke up and I opened my email and then people had emailed me, people from like, The Vulva Gallery community, like saying, where's your account? Why can I can't I see it anymore? And I was like, what? And then they opened it, and it said, it was disabled. And I never felt like that before, it was so upsetting because it's not only illustration, but it's all the stories, all the conversations in the comment section -
Hannah Witton
And suddenly it's just all gone.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. And just the whole platform, educational platform you've been working on for two and a half years at that time, with you know, hundreds of thousands of followers and it's like, oh, it's gone in one snap. And that, I don't like that Instagram has the power to take away these important communities and projects that are so valuable. I contacted them. I emailed them and explained them that, yeah, well, I'm, in fact, following your guidelines. And it's educational, not sexual and I think there's been a mistake. And then they apologised and reinstated the account within 24 hours. And then I got a blue badge.
Hannah Witton
They're like sorry, we'll verify you. But that's so ridiculous though, that like, you know, an account that is like of your size and obviously, is deemed verifiable by Instagram, still, like, can fall victim to just, I don't know, whether it's humans, or an algorithm that just goes, this bad take it down, without any like warning or any appeal before it happens. It's like, yeah, it was like, we're gonna take it down, we'll ask questions later, rather than like asking the questions first, which frustrates me so much, and like, a few people who I know who, you know, in the like, sex positive, body positive space, who are like posting educational content online, and the you know, their accounts have been taken down as well. And then, like, a few days later, being reinstated, and it's just like, come on Instagram, get your shit together.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah. It's difficult. I mean, I understand that they have so many requests, and it's hard to first, you know, look at it, and then think about it. And then, I think it's automated, so if there's enough complaints then the computer kicks off.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like if content gets flagged by like, a group of people who decide to hate your stuff.
Hilde Atalanta
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it sucks. But I kind of want to end on a really on a positive note. So like, from The Vulva Gallery instagram, but then also from the book, if people have that, like what is, I guess what's like the main message that you want people to take away from your work?
Hilde Atalanta
Oh, good question. The main message, you're normal. You're just normal. And there's like, in fact, there's nothing to worry about. I know that that second part of the sentence is, is very, I don't know if I want to say it in those words. But I don't know how to express it in English well.
Hannah Witton
It's like easier said than done too, yeah.
Hilde Atalanta
Yes, that's a good addition to it. And of course, we all have stuff to worry about, and we're all insecure, but knowing that you're normal already helps a lot. And there's so many people who think they're weird, in some way, or their experiences weird, or their sexualities weird, or their body is weird. I've seen all types of vulva's, and there is no normal. So saying you're normal is actually weird. But because we're all different, and there's millions of different, like billions of different variations that makes each of us again, normal, and not weird.
Hannah Witton
That's a great message. I think that always comes through as well. And like the interactions that I have online to like, most of the questions that I get from people are some iteration of, am I normal? Whether that is like, my body looks like this, am I normal? Or like I have these kinds of sexual desires, is that normal? You know.
Hilde Atalanta
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
People are always looking for that reassurance. And I think it's really amazing
Hilde Atalanta
The most common question in The Vulva Gallery, like emails that I receive on a daily basis, 16 year olds, 14 year olds, 25 year olds, I don't know, age doesn't matter. But the main question, am I normal? And the answer is always, yes you are.
Hannah Witton
It's like, yes, but also what is normal? Thank you so much for chatting with me. Where can people find you and your work online?
Hilde Atalanta
You can find me on Instagram on @the.vulva.gallery. I have a website, www.thevulvagallery.com. There you can read a lot of personal stories like so far, I think there are over 200 personal stories and portraits. So it's really wise to dive into that. This week I'm having anatomy week, when the podcast comes out. It's been passed but I just have a new anatomy page also on the website, which is really interesting to dive into to learn all the bits and pieces and parts and and you can find Your Welcome Club at Instagram, @yourewelcomeclub, and yourewelcomeclub.com. And I do have an Etsy shop where you can find my book and the game and all kinds of vulva merchandise if you type in hildeatalanta.etsy.com, you'll find everything you want to see.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, and thank you for listening. Bye!
Hilde Atalanta
Bye.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review, you can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a global original podcast