Family Acceptance and Feeling "Done" with Your Transition with Jamie and Shaaba | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Jamie Raines
It is just like a relief and a freedom. It's like I can get on with life. I'm not registered with the gender clinic, I don't have to be thinking about the next surgery, like dysphoria is not something that's constantly on my mind anymore. I just feel like I can live.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hey everyone, welcome back to Doing It. So this week I'm coming to you from another remote recording. And this week, my guests are Jamie and Shaaba.
Jamie and Shaaba are in a relationship, and they make YouTube videos together about their relationship and LGBTQ plus issues. Jamie has documented his transition on YouTube, from starting testosterone to finally getting his gender recognition certificate, which we talked about in this episode, about how Jamie feels like throughout that process, and finally getting his GRC and his lower surgery, that he feels like his transition is done. We talk about what the cost of that transition was, in terms of time and money, in the UK. And we talk about how at the beginning of their relationship, because Jamie and Shaaba were best friends pre Jamie coming out as trans and transitioning, and the reaction that Shaaba's family had to that, and how Shaaba's family didn't see Jamie for the first like five years of their relationship. We talked about making YouTube videos about their relationship and transitioning, going through hardships together in a relationship, and does that bring you together or potentially, like pull you apart. We also talked about Shaaba's bisexuality, how she realised that she was bi, and why she didn't talk about it online for a really long time. And then that decision making process of eventually making a video about it, and what the reaction to that was, and what it meant for the way that people perceived her and Jamie's relationship. And then we also talk about some exciting potential new developments in science that might allow for a couple, where one of the people are trans, to have biological children, which is just fascinating. It was an absolute pleasure talking with Jamie and Shaaba in this episode, and I really admire what they do for the LGBTQ+ community in the videos that they make online, and I really hope that you enjoy this episode.
Jamie, Shaaba, welcome, welcome, welcome.
Shaaba Lotun
Hi, thanks for having us.
Jamie Raines
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
How are you both doing?
Jamie Raines
Yeah. All right, all right.
Shaaba Lotun
Good. Getting busy, keeping busy.
Jamie Raines
Yes, definitely.
Hannah Witton
Oh good. Yes. And you've got each other.
Shaaba Lotun
Indeed, yeah.
Jamie Raines
Most of the time that's a good thing.
Shaaba Lotun
We have domestics and nowhere to disappear to, but it's fine. I just lock Jamie in a shed.
Jamie Raines
What?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's smart, if you have a shed, you might as well use it. Um, I wanted to chat with you two just because I really love you both dearly, and admire, I guess, how much you've like put yourself out there, in terms of your relationship. And I wondered if that was ever a conscious choice about what you were sharing? Or, in a way, is it like you, you know, that is helping people, so that kind of like as a motivator to share your lives?
Shaaba Lotun
Oh, that is a great question.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
Wanna take it?
Jamie Raines
I'm thinking. I think there was a conscious decision to share certain things and to like, be open about being in a relationship together and talking about some perspectives. But definitely, over the years, we've kind of shared more and more. And it's been like less conscious and more just kind of like, hey, this might be useful for people, or let's talk about this topic. And it's kind of like, oh, look at how much we shared.
Shaaba Lotun
I definitely think it's quite reactive as well. Like you see, people say like, oh, my gosh, I would love to hear how this happened, or how this perspective came about or how you told your mom, like that sort of thing.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
We'd be like, oh, great. Yeah, let's talk about that then. Like the boundaries that we set for ourselves, initially, I feel are very different to what we actually talk about now.
Jamie Raines
Oh, for sure. Because I think we initially just started off, because it always started off as like my channel, and then Shaaba kind of joined in and -
Shaaba Lotun
Oh, I remember that. It was with the updates of happiness.
Jamie Raines
Yeah. And it really started from a relationship perspective, just talking about each other's family and what the lack of acceptance there used to be there, and kind of updates on that. And then around that, it became more and more just like general relationship stuff
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, I don't know if you feel the same way, Hannah, but sometimes when we make videos as well, like we just did a recent one on sort of like intimacy. We're just like, okay, we know we're not gonna talk about like this stuff, but then when you're on camera, you kind of forget the cameras there, and you just end up talking about things and probably oversharing anyways.
Hannah Witton
And that's why editing is great. No, but I, I didn't realise that at the beginning, a lot of the stuff about your relationship was about, Shaaba, your family. Did your family ever see those videos?
Shaaba Lotun
Oh, yeah, I think they probably did to be honest, afterwards. Because my, I'm not sure how much you know, but like, my mom kicked me out when we first got together. And -
Hannah Witton
I didn't know that.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah. So when that happened, I think the difficult thing was, as well, but they knew Jamie, pre Jamie, because we were friends from before.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
So I'm not using it as an excuse, but I think they just maybe used that as a way to find it even harder to accept.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, it's a concept they'd never come across before. And I think instead of kind of having, like people have different reactions when they find out stuff like that. And instead of having the reaction of like, okay, this is different. We don't really know what to do with it, but let's talk about it and learn more. Their instant reaction, or certainly Shaaba's mum's instant reaction was to be like, oh my God, this is the worst thing ever. I need to tell everybody, and try and fix it, and break them up.
Shaaba Lotun
So she went to like, all of my family and basically went right, so Shaaba's as a lesbian. How do I fix this?
Hannah Witton
Oh, I was gonna ask, actually, was it a fear of like, Jamie, you being trans? Or was it like this misunderstanding of thinking that, Shaaba, you were gay? Like, or just a mix of the two
Jamie Raines
Everything
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, it was just a huge big melting pot. But the really interesting thing was that they didn't see Jamie. So like, I think the last time they saw you was probably my 16th birthday, when I had all my friends over and he was still presenting as female.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
For like, a Saw marathon that we did. And then it was honestly like -
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, why would you do that?
Jamie Raines
That's what I thought, I hated it.
Shaaba Lotun
I was a weird child. Yeah, but it was like five years until they saw you again. And they were like, holy hell, this is the same person. Like -
Jamie Raines
Well, yeah, it was nearly five years, wasn't it? Because I did -
Hannah Witton
So did it take five years for them to kind of come to terms with?
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, and that was basically what the little updates of happiness were about. Like Jamie was just like, oh, when I have issues with like, my transition, I find that making the video helps. So we sort of set up the camera and Jamie is just like, why don't we just talk about where it is, we don't have to put it up anywhere, and we'll see where it goes. And and that's kind of, yeah, what we did. And then like little moments, so like, a Christmas two years in, Jamie was just like, you know what, I want to get some gifts for your family. I want to show that I want to make effort. And you know, they sort of responded to that, in a way that we didn't expect. So we do like another little update and be like, oh, things are going a bit better. Yeah, it was definitely like a two steps forward, five steps back kind of situation.
Jamie Raines
Oh, for sure. We keep thinking we were making progress, and then it was just like, no, can't deal with this. Because I think Shaaba's mum would start thinking about it and freak herself out and be like, no, I really can't handle it, I don't want to accept it.
Hannah Witton
Was it a case of just a long five years of baby steps? Or was there a like significant turning point?
Shaaba Lotun
I feel like there were two big turning points.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, there are a lot of baby steps
Shaaba Lotun
Lots of baby steps.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, I think the turning, there was one turning point where I took Christmas presents over.
Shaaba Lotun
Yes.
Jamie Raines
And because they hadn't seen me for so long, I'd been on testosterone for a few years, by the time they saw me and I took these presents over. And I remember Shaaba's step dad just was staring at me, going, you'd never be able to tell. And I think the fact that like, I looked how they would expect a man to look in society
Shaaba Lotun
And sounded -
Jamie Raines
And sounded like one, helped them because they were like, oh, right, because we thought you would just look like a girl. And then when I didn't, it really it threw them. And I think that helped them kind of get past, in their head, and realise that actually, no, I am the man and they started seeing me as one.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, because I guess putting ourselves in their shoes, there's like two things that they were battling with. The internal conflict that comes with things like, you know, personal beliefs and religion and that sort of thing. But also, from a cultural element. Like being in the Asian community, reputation is everything. And I was the golden child who always got good grades, never did anything wrong.
Jamie Raines
And I ruined it all.
Shaaba Lotun
A white, trans loving, lesbian.
Jamie Raines
Oh my god yeah.
Hannah Witton
What happened?
Shaaba Lotun
Where did it all go wrong?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, this is really interesting. I guess I didn't know the extent to what you guys had to go through in the beginning of your relationship. Because Jamie, you started making videos about your transition. Did you start making videos whilst you were together? Or is it or did you start making them before the two of you started dating? And then like, or was it like this moments of happiness that became like the YouTube channel, at the beginning.
Jamie Raines
I started the channel before we got together. And -
Shaaba Lotun
It wasn't too long before
Jamie Raines
It was, so I started it like late summer 2011. And we got together the November that year. But I don't I don't think I told Shaaba about the channel, we were like best friends at the time. I don't think I really talked to her.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you had a secret YouTube channel.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, and I made just like intro videos, talking about going to like gender clinic appointments. And I think it was when I was a few months on T, so like, halfway through 2012, that was when we made our first video together. So I'd had the channel for like, nearly a year, by the time Shaaba was introduced onto it. And then we definitely kind of kept making videos together because people responded really positively to them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Good job you've stayed together all this time as well.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah
Hannah Witton
No awkward breakup video.
Shaaba Lotun
It was a long part of us as well, that we're just like, not being funny but what if we're only together because, you know, like, there's like a hardship. That is making you rely on each other, I constantly questioned it. I was just like, I wonder if our love is like a political, no, fuck you family, you know. And I was worried that if, well, obviously, I wanted that to be fixed. But if that was fixed, would I still, would we still have this thing between us?
Hannah Witton
Do you just love him, because you want to rebel?
Shaaba Lotun
Right!
Jamie Raines
Well, it's fixed and Shaaba still loves me!
Hannah Witton
But I think there definitely is something to be said for like, going through a hardship, or some kind of trauma together.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, for sure.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I think it can either be a really positive thing, or a really negative thing that it brings people together. So like, you could go through something traumatic with someone that actually like, but actually that person isn't good for you. And because you experienced a similar trauma, it means that you stay together because you feel bonded, when actually like it's making it all worse, you know?
Shaaba Lotun
So right -
Hannah Witton
Because when I was in, like completely different scenario, but still with that hardship, like, I had my like, surgery and being in hospital and everything, when Dan and I'd only been together for a year. And so I've definitely had those sorts of like, would we still be together if that hadn't happened? Because obviously, like it did bring us closer.
Shaaba Lotun
But it's amazing when it works out, right? Because then you can be like, wow, look, I shared this really intimate, amazing experience with you.
Jamie Raines
But I think as well as like sometimes pushing people together, when it's not necessarily right, it can also like seeing your partner's responses in those difficult situations can kind of help solidify like how important they are to you. Like, and not just in like, oh, we went through trauma together, but just in like, no, you're like a good person. And you stuck with me, and supported me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jamie Raines
So I think like, we had really difficult chats. We've been together, we when we've been together for like three months, we literally had this chat of like, is our relationship worth it?
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah.
Jamie Raines
And that's like, a lot to do. Yeah, I remember we were just like standing in a college hallway.
Shaaba Lotun
Me too!
Jamie Raines
Like your parents had found out, what can we do?
Hannah Witton
And you guys are like, what, 17 years old?
Jamie Raines
Yeah, we were.
Shaaba Lotun
And basically, I just said to Jamie like, look, you don't want to be with me. You don't, you don't know what yourself into. Like you already have enough to deal with, are you sure you want to do this?
Jamie Raines
I know, you are literally like, you don't want to take this up. You don't want this burden. And I was like, no, no, I want to be with you, so therefore it's fine.
Shaaba Lotun
Well there you go, are stupid naivety paid off.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, well love, what is it, just trumps all, doesn't it. It's, it's just the overriding thing of just like, oh, all of these hormones, I love this person. Like, this is all I can think of right now. All consuming, especially when you're 17. But it worked out. So that's great.
Jamie Raines
Eight and a half years now.
Shaaba Lotun
Oh, goodness, really, has it been that long?
Jamie Raines
Yeah, it'll be nine years in November this year.
Hannah Witton
I'm currently in my longest relationship, which is three years. So I'm like, well done me. But nine years, what is that?
Shaaba Lotun
No, three years is amazing. And I feel like it's not necessarily like length of time, but milestones. We spoke about this recently in a video. It was really sweet to see like the community commenting things like oh, a real long term relationship is when you like watch each other poop.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I keep on asking Dan to do this thing with me. He'll never do it and, also, I don't even know if I actually want it, it's just like this curiosity thing of like, could it could it work? Like, so if I'm sat on the toilet having a wee, and then he's in front of me also having a wee, but like, into the toilet. And I'm just like, I just want to know if we can do it, you know? He's just like, absolutely not.
Shaaba Lotun
I'm sure you can!
Jamie Raines
That's a really specific want though. I've never heard of that before.
Hannah Witton
I'm crying actually, laughing at this. It's not even a sexual thing, it's just purely just like curiosity. And just like, is this possible.
Jamie Raines
I bet you it is.
Hannah Witton
I think it comes down to the aim though like -
Jamie Raines
Yeah,
Hannah Witton
I think one of the, this has come up actually multiple times. And one of the times I brought it up, Dan was like, sometimes I can't control which way it comes out, like it just might split off. And I'm like, good point.
Shaaba Lotun
Well, you know, maybe that's where you'll then find your newfound love for like pee fetish play.
Hannah Witton
Maybe that's where it'll come from, who knows. Jamie, you've documented your transition.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
On YouTube in a lot of detail, and really like, you know, showing all of the physical changes and talking through everything. And then recently, you made a video that kind of like, summed it all up. You were like, I'm done.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
What does that mean to you? Like, what did you being done with your transition mean? And like, how long was that process?
Jamie Raines
Oh, it was just a relief. It was just like, I think transitioning is something that, when you get past that scary point, it can be really exciting. And there's all these milestones that you're like, oh my God, like look at these changes from testosterone, and like my chest, and stuff like that. But at the same time, it's constantly on your mind. So I really wanted to do this wrap up after I had my second set of lower surgery, and they were like, hey, you're all done unless like because nothing's gone wrong. It's all good. We managed to finish the surgery. Go. And I was like, I want to wrap this up. Because also a couple months prior to that, was a couple months prior, or was it after? That's I got my GRC?
Shaaba Lotun
It was about a month before you made the video, so it's after your surgery .
Jamie Raines
After the surgery, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Your your GRC is your Gender Recognition Certificate?
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And does that basically change your sex on your birth certificate? Is that what it does?
Jamie Raines
Yes, yeah. So I have a new birth certificate now that says, sex male. So yes.
Shaaba Lotun
And also, under English law, the reason it was important for you is because -
Jamie Raines
We can get married as husband and wife
Shaaba Lotun
As opposed to two females.
Jamie Raines
Although that's what I read everywhere and then we went for our like, registration meeting and I took all the I took this massive wad of documents, and she just looked at my passport and was like, I don't need to see anything else and I was like, oh.
Shaaba Lotun
I think the thing is, in theory, like by law, they technically have to but in practice, depending on who you get, it might differ. But it's still an important thing to have.
Hannah Witton
So your passport already has M on it.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, like passport, driving licence, literally everything except tax records and your birth certificate you can change prior to getting a gender recognition certificate.
Hannah Witton
Huh.
Shaaba Lotun
It's a pretty weird system.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure of the logic there. But sure.
Jamie Raines
It's an interesting one. But I think because like is complicated to get the certificate, like it's a long process, it costs money, it's quite invasive.
Hannah Witton
Isn't that something that they were planning on changing recently? There was a whole consultation for it, and then lots of transphobes kind of like, overtook the consultation.
Jamie Raines
Yeah. The whole argument just frustrates me because they're arguing against like, the whole bathrooms and changing rooms, which covered under the Equality Act. It's nothing to do with gender recognition certificate, it's it's just weird. But yeah, they hate it.
Hannah Witton
They do. Yeah, so you, what, to you then, like that feeling of like, being done, I guess with your transition.
Jamie Raines
I think it's just like, it is just like a relief and a freedom. It's like I can get on with life. I'm not registered with the gender clinic, I don't have to be thinking about the next surgery, like dysphoria is not something that's constantly on my mind anymore. I just feel like I can live without that. I'm still seeing myself like, I'm a man who is trans, but like, the trans aspect now that my personal transition is done, doesn't impact my life anymore, in the way it used to.
Shaaba Lotun
Well, unless you voluntarily, like voluntarily wanted to. You know, like making videos about it and in terms of research.
Jamie Raines
Oh, yeah, but that's different.
Shaaba Lotun
But you personally -
Jamie Raines
Yeah, it doesn't impact it in the way of like, I'm on a wait list for surgery. I really need the surgery, and it's going to be like two years. I've got this to sort out for over this thing.
Shaaba Lotun
You were definitely way more emotional than I thought you'd be, at that final stage.
Jamie Raines
Me too!
Hannah Witton
Do you mean that final stage, where you could like, see your finish line?
Jamie Raines
Well, I, I opened, I got a letter in the post that I was like, this is my Gender Recognition Certificate. This is like the result of my application.
Shaaba Lotun
He just tossed me his phone, and he's just like, film this because if it's not good, I'm gonna make a big uproar about it. Because it's like, this panel of anonymous people who decide.
Hannah Witton
And they could have said no.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, they could've said no.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, which is so bizarre. So it's almost like opening up a university acceptance letter. So if it's bad, we'll film it. If it's good, we'll film it, just film it. So I was filming it and then all of a sudden, you just get this little quaky lip, and he starts crying. And I'm like, awwww.
Jamie Raines
I got so emotional.
Hannah Witton
I saw that clip in the in the roundup video you did and like, I was just like, oh, yeah, you can see in that, that clip just like how much it means to you.
Shaaba Lotun
I don't think I realised that.
Jamie Raines
No, me neither, literally me neither. I did not expect to get emotional.
Hannah Witton
Things hit you like that where you're like, oh, this isn't a big deal. And then when it happens, you're like, oh, I didn't realise how much like emotional weight, that you have put on something. But maybe it was a, like protecting yourself in case it was like, in case they did reject your applications.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, I had been like fully preparing myself, just in case. I knew it was unlikely because I'd send in like all the right evidence and stuff. But I was just like, what if they just say no, because I sent in the wrong bit of paper or something? I don't know.
Shaaba Lotun
It's funny, though, isn't it? How like, you can have haters for many, many years, like day after day, be like you're not male, you're not male. And you've just been so like, assertive of your own identity to be like, that doesn't matter. Yet, seeing a tiny little M on a piece of paper, meant the world. But I just I find that so, so funny.
Hannah Witton
It's almost like, who's approval means more to you.
Jamie Raines
Yeah. And it's kind of like, I wish it wasn't, but it almost feels kind of validating to see it like on a legal document. Because it's like, well, it's something I've known the whole time and despite people telling me that it's not true, like now it's legally down there as being true. So like, whatever anybody else says, it can't change that bit of paper. Not that it could change my head anyway, but just I don't know. It's like an extra layer of -
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's like an armour. It's almost like, proof to wave at people who doubt you.
Shaaba Lotun
Oh, my gosh, now I'm just imagining like a really amazing like suit on drag race. That's just like loads of birth certificates.
Jamie Raines
What, like the paper dress challenge?
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah.
Jamie Raines
That would be cool.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God!
Shaaba Lotun
Let's do it, let's do it.
Jamie Raines
I can't make a dress!
Hannah Witton
I was wondering, and like, if you don't want to answer this, don't worry. Or you can give us like an estimate, but like, how much money has your transition cost? Like what, like, what is the like, financial cost of transitioning in the UK?
Jamie Raines
I did a video of this, actually. And it is like, it depends, like for me, I think it probably cost around 10,000. Somewhere between like eight and 10,000 pounds.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, is that private then?
Jamie Raines
That because I went private for testosterone and top surgery. And top surgery was like six grand,
Shaaba Lotun
But not lower surgery.
Jamie Raines
Lower surgery, if you go private, it can run into like the tens of thousands.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Jamie Raines
So in -
Shaaba Lotun
And in the US, it's even higher.
Jamie Raines
Well the US is harder, because it's not covered by a huge amount of insurances, I don't think. And there's obviously no national health system. So like people who don't have insurance that will cover it, have to pay out of pocket for their whole transition. So yeah, but in the UK, it can cost effectively nothing, except like prescription and travel, if you go through the NHS for the whole thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and time, because it will take much longer.
Jamie Raines
Oh, the time.
Shaaba Lotun
It makes a difference
Jamie Raines
It takes a long time.
Shaaba Lotun
We're talking like years as opposed to months.
Jamie Raines
Even as someone who was like several years on hormones and had top surgery, it took me from October 2015 to January 2019. From referral for lower, from referral to gender clinic to having first stage lower surgery.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow. I can I can imagine like, because I've I've been through, like other medical stuff, and just like that, like you get a referral, and then you get a letter and it's telling you to come in in a few months time, and then finally you get to see someone face to face, and then they send you home. And then like six months later, you get another letter like -
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I can see what you mean about like that relief of like when you personally felt like you were done, the fact that you have no more doctor's appointment, or like, not waiting for letters like yeah, I can see how huge that is!
Shaaba Lotun
I think an important thing to note, as well as, regardless of whether it's private, or through the NHS, it's still a very long time. Like it's still not taken lightly in any way. You know, there's still like a two year period where you have to live in role, certain number of numbers of people that you have to see, who are very qualified. So yeah, those waits are very long.
Hannah Witton
What do you think about that? Do you think it should be easier?
Jamie Raines
I think the, I think there's like the right number of assessments, but I just think there's not enough, like, financial help within the sector to like, I think the wait time should be shorter. But I do agree with the assessment level because it's, it's enough where it's like, it's not, like excessive, but it's also necessary because it helps people talk through their feeling, and their lives, and what they're going through.
Shaaba Lotun
And you know what, there are some people who go through that whole experience and then realise, actually, you know what, I don't think this is me. You know, I've gone through this exploration phase, and I've decided it's not right. And that is absolutely okay, it's what the process is therefore -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess what you mean about like the funding as well like, if you have the same level of assessments, but there's more funding, so there's more people who are able to do it, and more clinics, then that would make wait times much shorter.
Shaaba Lotun
Just streamline the whole process.
Hannah Witton
Shorter wait times, please! Shaaba I wanted to talk to you as well, because you recently came out as bisexual, although, not really that recently. What, for you, like, made you realise that you were bisexual? And then I'm also intrigued, because you've mentioned this on your YouTube channel a bit before about how, like, when you came out as bi, then you got the kinds of comments were like, oh, well, that's obviously why she's with a trans man. Almost like explaining it away.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah. So I, it's actually really funny. Um, you're gonna be like, oh, small world. We went, we've been to pride events for ages, for a very long time, and it's it seems almost so stupid that I realised quite a bit later on. Because you introduced me, Jamie, to the LGBT community from the trans point of view, I was very aware of what being gay, and lesbian, and bi meant. I just didn't really connect it to myself, until it was, we went London pride with Calum, and we were all doing something on the YouTube bus together.
Jamie Raines
Oh, the YouTube bus.
Hannah Witton
Calum McSwiggan!
Jamie Raines
Yes.
Shaaba Lotun
Lovely Calum. And he introduced us to Melanie. And I was like -
Hannah Witton
Ah, Melanie Murphy!
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
Melanie is so pretty. And I feel like that was my first proper girl crush, at a time where I understood what feeling things meant, if that made sense. I was like, a few days after that. I was just like, looking her up on YouTube, saw some videos, and read, like I found her video on how she realised she was bi. And I was like, oh, shit, I think I might be bi.
Hannah Witton
Does Melanie know this? Have you told her?
Shaaba Lotun
No.
Hannah Witton
She'll be very happy about it, I'm sure.
Shaaba Lotun
And I told Jamie. I was just like, oh, wow. Just just letting you know, like, it doesn't change anything right now. But I feel like these are things that I want to explore. It's just kind of difficult, because obviously, we're in a monogamous relationship and all that stuff. I don't want it to change. Just what was important for you to know. And you kind of then went, Shaaba, what everything you're saying kind of makes sense to me. I think I might be bi too!
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, just coming out to each other.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah. And then, well it was bizarre, I then told my mum and my sister, and my sister just came out and she's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm bi. I'm just like, okay, this has to stop. A year, I think until I decided, you know what, I think I should probably speak about this online because, you know, we preach being authentic and all of this stuff, but and it's something that I've known, I had known for, like over a year, but didn't really talk about. And I guess I was just scared because I knew that people, if you didn't accept our relationship as a straight relationship, or also didn't see Jamie as male, would just be like, oh, that's another reason you know, adding fuel to the fire. Jamie is not really male. She only likes him because she also likes pussy, kind of thing. You know?
Hannah Witton
Is that why you didn't talk about it online for so long?
Shaaba Lotun
Yes, I definitely told like loads of friends beforehand. You know, I go out with like, a little bi flag at pride. But like, I didn't really want photos, or or to to speak about it online, just because I didn't want to invalidate your identity.
Jamie Raines
Yeah. And like Shaaba asked me, before making the video. And she was like, look, I think this is going to be the feedback, because it kind of happens already. Are you okay with that? Because I don't want you to feel like your identity's not valid or like being invalidated by people. And I was like, well, it's up to you. If it's something you want to talk about, I don't really care what other people have to say. Yeah. So -
Shaaba Lotun
And just weighing up the pros and cons. I just saw other people who, like within the Asian community in particular, who got like, and get, a lot of slack for being in any way different from like -
Jamie Raines
Do you mean flack? Sorry,
Shaaba Lotun
What did I say?
Jamie Raines
Slack.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, those are two different things.
Shaaba Lotun
They really are. But I was just like, I like I felt so dirty. Like, knowing something but not, you know, doing something about it.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
What was the response to it, then? Was it like, partly what you predicted? Or was that very much a minority?
Shaaba Lotun
I definitely think it's pretty half/half.
Hannah Witton
Really? Oh wow.
Shaaba Lotun
Well, I think you can really see it, without stereotyping, within certain pockets of communities. So you know, like, the normal hate, but also a lot of Asian people will be like, right, that makes sense now. You know, I got it in DM's at the time and stuff as well. But publicly, I have to say, people are quite nice on comments. Yeah. And for every person that says something negative, there's people like jumping on that and being very positive.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Ah man, it's, I think it's an interesting one because I think it, one thing that I think a lot of people potentially can get confused around is the differences between like, sexuality and gender and gender expression and sexual behaviour and how, like all of these things where, where like, in some cases, they do align or overlap. In a lot of cases, they're all very separate things for individuals. And so I think it's like challenging that notion as well. Because, yeah, yeah, it shouldn't be a case of like, you see a straight relationship where one person is trans and then one comes out as bi, and then you're like, oh, well, okay, it makes sense now. It's like, no, it should have made sense before.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, yeah. It is very interesting, though. Like, because we, we obviously experience a lot of straight privilege. Even within the LGBT community, it's like we don't really fit in with like, our lesbian friends. They'll be like, oh, yeah, you're our token straight couple, or you know, a pride people be like, why are you just straight allies pretending to be here for some reason? No, no, we are.
Jamie Raines
So we always have little flags, I have a trans like, Shaaba has a bi flag.
Shaaba Lotun
I mean, nothing wrong with allies, at all.
Hannah Witton
But you're just like, we belong!
Jamie Raines
Yeah
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, that's, do you do you feel like you benefit from being straight passing in any way? In any kind of like, walks of life, where that helps you, do you think?
Shaaba Lotun
Definitely.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because obviously, you're so open about your relationship on online, you're not going to be straight passing because you're very clear about the fact that, Jamie, you're trans and everything, but do you feel like in real life like walking around and stuff you?
Jamie Raines
Oh, absolutely. Because we hear from like, our kind of like gay couple friends that the there's like many places where they're uncomfortable to like, show affection in public, hold hands even. We can just do that.
Shaaba Lotun
We're not very PDA anyway.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
But it's just not something we even have to think about.
Jamie Raines
We hold hands walking down the street.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah.
Jamie Raines
And just not think about it. Whereas a lot of our friends will be like, oh, no, like, I always second guessed that, and look around before doing that.
Shaaba Lotun
We were speaking to, who was it really speaking to about babies recently? And we were like, oh, yeah, like, people wouldn't think that we're just like a mum and a sister.
Hannah Witton
Oh, was that in your videos with Jessica and Claudia?
Jamie Raines
Must've been.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I watched them.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah. So it's really interesting.
Jamie Raines
Very broody.
Shaaba Lotun
Like things like that. I know, so broody.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
I really want a baby.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you made videos as well recently about like, actually, the all of the different -
Shaaba Lotun
Processes.
Hannah Witton
Ways that, yeah, that you could have kids.
Shaaba Lotun
Science is amazing.
Hannah Witton
There's, there's obviously like, there's some of the obvious ways, but Shaaba, please explain, for our listeners, because I just think it's so fascinating. I think people will want to hear about this. Please explain. It doesn't exist, quite yet, but there's tests or something, but like the one where you could potentially have, you and Jamie could have a biological child?
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, well, there's, there's sort of the two ways that it could happen. But they fall under IVG. The first is kind of already in existence, and there's a licencing hospital, I believe it's Newcastle, here in the UK that already do them. But it's for like the three person baby. So to put in like super crude terms, like scientists would frown and wriggling their graves. You know, they sort of like take the egg and the sperm and then they take, for this particular process is for people who don't want to pass on so much diseases which would be genetic and very damaging to offspring basically. So they'll like remove the DNA and replace it from a third person. So technically, there's a DNA of three people. But the similar thing can be done with IVG, which isn't available because ethics hasn't passed yet. And that's where they'll essentially scoop out the DNA within a sperm. So imagine like, Man A, which is a boat, and man B would be Jamie's DNA placed into that, which would then sort of be infused with my egg and then popped back inside.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
Bake.
Jamie Raines
Bake. They can also grow sperm cells.
Shaaba Lotun
Through stem cells.
Jamie Raines
Yes. So they take stem cells, they take cells, and they revert them back to like baby stage stem cells.
Shaaba Lotun
Not baby making, like very early stages of what a cell is. So cells are all the same, until they realise, oh, I'm supposed to be a sperm cell or I'm supposed to be a whatever.
Jamie Raines
Basically encouraged them the cells to to become the sperm cells.
Shaaba Lotun
By placing them next to the sperm cells. So it goes, ah, that's what I need to become.
Hannah Witton
How do they then take the the sperm that they want, and not the other random sperm, if they're all next to each other?
Shaaba Lotun
Maybe there's a little gate?
Hannah Witton
Maybe there's a barrier?
Jamie Raines
A clear barrier between them.
Shaaba Lotun
But no, no, in all seriousness, they've done it with mice. It's worked with two biologically female mice, where they've been able to create a sperm and an egg, those mice have been able to reproduce, and their babies have also been able to reproduce naturally, which is amazing. But obviously, when there's a combination of chromosomes, you can only have females that way. And then also -
Hannah Witton
I mean, that's not a bad thing.
Jamie Raines
Both of us only want girls, actually.
Shaaba Lotun
But they did try it with two male mice, and they weren't able to reproduce results. So it seems to be a little bit trickier with male cells.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That is, it's just fascinating. I'm just like, oh my God, science and the future.
Shaaba Lotun
Very cool.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So that wouldn't, that wouldn't be able to like, I'm trying to think, would there be ways for like, a cis, gay, male couple.
Shaaba Lotun
So to not at the minute. It'll probably help lesbian couples, and couples like us with trans people involved? Or cis couples, where a man is infertile for any number of natural reasons?
Jamie Raines
Yeah. I think it must be that they can they can create sperm cells, but it's harder to create egg cells or something.
Shaaba Lotun
From male DNA.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I see. Or maybe it's because sperm are simples! And just a bit of casual sexism to input into this podcast. I wanted to also briefly touch on your social enterprise that the two of you run together, True to Me. Do you want to talk about, like how you started that, and then also the charities that it supports. And like what you do with it? Give it a little plug.
Shaaba Lotun
We started it a few years ago. It's been like a very slow burning thing.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, it started just with the idea of wristbands. So like, something very simple, but a bit more permanent than a sticker, that people could express their pronouns with.
Shaaba Lotun
For people who didn't pass, but didn't want to say, actually, my pronouns are x, y, z,
Jamie Raines
Yeah, a wristband with pronouns on.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh
Jamie Raines
And it just kind of grew from there. And then we thought about ways that we could use it to give back as well.
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah. So we created like he/him/his wristbands, she/her/hers, and they/them/theirs, very neutral colours. We just made them available online and basically, apart from covering costs, most of the money was just put back into charitable donations. So we were wondering for a while, like what to do with it? Do we put it back in a sense of like lotteries? Because loads of people contact us, particularly early trans people, who are in less supportive families, who be like, oh, I really want a binder, for example, but my parents won't let me.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I see.
Shaaba Lotun
So we started doing it that way for a little while. But, and this this probably sounds so horrible, but there were just so many requests, it wasn't possible to keep up with that demand, which is really sad if you think about it, because it means that there are just so many people who are in need.
Hannah Witton
Are there any charities that do provide that kind of support?
Shaaba Lotun
Yeah, we tried, sort of reaching out to a few. The only people that were kind of happy with the idea of taking on, and I know that sounds a little bit funny, but obviously charities as well have a lot of regulations with where they can accept money from and stuff. So yeah, we ended up speaking to Mermaids, and that sort of like the link that we have.
Hannah Witton
Oh, with Mermaids. Yeah.
Shaaba Lotun
They're are trans charity, well a charity to help trans specifically trans kids and also a parent, in the UK.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, they're brilliant.
Shaaba Lotun
Very cool.
Jamie Raines
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
They did a twitch livestream recently, did you see that?
Jamie Raines
I heard about it, but I didn't see it.
Shaaba Lotun
I think I saw it on Twitter.
Jamie Raines
Yeah, I think we were actually live streaming at the same time they were, because I found out about it the day it was happening.
Shaaba Lotun
Oh, dammit!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's really cool. Do you still have stuff like the wristbands and things available on True to Me?
Jamie Raines
Yeah. We just don't like promote it. Because we're, we're working on some stuff, but it's just slow.
Shaaba Lotun
Yes, we do, we try and do like a project a year, and normally around pride season. So last pride we did like these little pride boxes. Like, the focus was on like, sexual health and, you know, just reducing the stigma around that area. We worked with some amazing companies. Sexual Health Check companies. Durex provided us with a tonne of condoms, and lube, which is amazing.
Hannah Witton
Love it!
Jamie Raines
And we did a little pride flag. So at checkout, people say what pride flag they wanted. And every one had like a different pride flag in.
Shaaba Lotun
That's right, because it's really frustrating. We go to quite a lot of pride events, obviously, and the first pride we went to, in particular, like, it's not even that long ago, like maybe four years ago. Yeah, there were just rainbow flags everywhere. And there's nothing wrong with the rainbow flag, but you just couldn't find a trans flag or any other flag, at all.
Jamie Raines
I remember the first pride went together. I didn't have a trans flag, and I was literally just like, oh, I buy one out the event and just carry it around. And we looked at every single store that like, just -
Shaaba Lotun
Just rainbows.
Jamie Raines
So we were like -
Hannah Witton
Has that changed though. Have you noticed that there are more flags available?
Jamie Raines
At certain prides, yeah. And actually it tends to be the smaller like, more kind of like town level prides that will offer a greater range of flags, like they just have stands that have pretty much every flag. Whereas bigger pride, I think -
Shaaba Lotun
I think because it's so commercialised, most of the vendors that sell they're just like, what's going to make money? Having said that London pride, this isn't like a spon or anything, but Budweiser, like amazing cups.
Jamie Raines
Oh, yeah, they did the cups, and they were literally every single flag.
Shaaba Lotun
So there were non-binary ones on there, asexual, pan.
Jamie Raines
So we got a trans and a bi one.
Hannah Witton
Oh, amazing. That's so cool. Yeah, cuz I feel like I've noticed in the last, like, couple of years, just like, more and more flags visible all over, like physically, but then also, like, I guess, online and stuff as well, like just people using them. Do you know what the deal is with the emoji flags? Because obviously, there's the, there's the rainbow flag emoji. And then there's also a just a plain white flag emoji, that I've seen people using to represent the trans flag, but I'm just like, but it's not the trans flag.
Jamie Raines
There's meant to be a trans flag coming out this year. I've heard
Hannah Witton
Okay, come on emojis!
Jamie Raines
I don't know if it’s now on hold, but there was meant to be one. I'm sure there will be one at some point.
Shaaba Lotun
There is an amazing, like little flag type emojis on twitch. We started streaming on there recently, and the chat is so wholesome. Yeah, like a bunch of bi and trans flags.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you should, if you ever do twitch signs, which is basically like twitches own like karaoke game. When people put emotes in the chat, it then like appears on the screen. So it looks like people are showering you with all of these like weird emotes because it's like coming up actually on the video.
Shaaba Lotun
We'll try that.
Hannah Witton
You should definitely check that out. Also, not sponsored by Twitch. Thank you both so much for just chatting with me and just being real lovely and sharing your stories with the world, and helping lots of people.
Jamie Raines
Thank you for having us.
Shaaba Lotun
Thank you for having us.
Hannah Witton
And thank you for listening, bye! Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
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