Love, Trauma and "Hating" Men with Holly Bourne | Transcript
Content warning for sexual abuse and sexual trauma.
Find the episode shownotes here!
Holly Bourne
In a good shift, there would only be one or two rapes.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Holly Bourne
And what was so upsetting, wasn't just that. It was also the fact that they didn't always come across as rapes. There weren't questions with young people going, oh, I've been raped, I don't know what to do. There were young people describing a rape, usually almost always with their partner or somebody that they knew, and then asking a question, sort of like, is that normal? Or -
Hannah Witton
Did I do something wrong?
Holly Bourne
Yeah. Oh, should I get an the morning after pill?
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. I hope that you're staying well, and I hope that you're staying inside, listening to podcasts.
This episode is with the wonderful Holly Bourne, who is an author you may know some of her YA books, the Spinster Trilogy, and The Places I've Cried In Public. And last year she published her first adult novel, How Do You Like Me Now, which I absolutely adored, and her new adult novel, Pretending, is coming out on the 2nd of April, which is the day after this podcast episode comes out and I wanted to give it a little extra plug. Obviously, we talked about it a lot in this episode, but because of Coronavirus, a lot of authors aren't able to do certain press events or book tours, and it may not seem like the most pressing thing but as an author myself, I know how important it is and how important it feels to get the word out there about the books, like it's your baby and a lot of events are being rightly cancelled. So please still buy books online, listen to them in audio form, get them on your Kindle, like just please still be reading, this is a great time to be reading. And I'm actually over halfway through Pretending at the moment and absolutely loving it.
Obviously we dive into loads of the themes of the book. But I wanted to give a content warning for sexual abuse and sexual trauma, that plays heavily into Pretending the book, and also our conversation in this episode.
The book is about a young woman called April who has almost completely given up on men. And she has had not the best time. which is putting it really lightly, in relationships, in the past. And she basically decides to pretend to be a manic-pixie-dream-Cool-Girl-esque archetype, called Gretel. If you like those kinds of movies, that are basically dating experiments, kind of like 10 Things I Hate About You, you will like this book, because it's basically that but with substance, is the best way I can think of describing it. It's about hating men, but also loving men. And the main character April works on the frontline of a youth charity dealing with a lot of sexual abuse questions from young people, which we also talk a lot about in this episode. Holly is a dear friend of mine and I absolutely love her books. I love her writing style, she is so good at being able to inject humour into really quite difficult and often devastating themes. And she does that brilliantly in this book. And like I said, I'm over halfway through. It is very much in the throes of April's fake character that she's playing, kind of getting away with itself and you know, when you're getting all caught up in a web of lies, and I genuinely have no idea how it's going to end. And I don't know where it's going.
One thing that we don't talk about in this episode, which has come up with reading it since I chatted with Holly is a lot of stuff about vaginismus and I think the stuff in the book about that is also brilliant. So I would highly recommend this book and you'll probably see me talking about it on social media after I've finished it but don't worry, there are no spoilers in this episode. I hope that you enjoy this chat. And ultimately Holly and I talk about a lot of dark things, but then also why we all love love. So I hope you enjoy, I hope you're staying safe.
Also quick update. This is the last episode that I've had pre-recorded since we've all been told to stay inside. So we've got a few options here. Either, we just like put a pin in it, and we wait a while. Or we can have some episodes with me and my partner, Dan, because we are a household, we live together, so I can hang out with him and record episodes with him. And then I'm also going to be looking into doing remote podcast recordings with people as well. But let me know if you'd be interested in any podcast episodes with me and my partner, maybe answering certain relationship based questions and living with a partner, that kind of thing. So yeah, there's a little update. And I hope that you enjoyed this episode bye!
Holly, thanks so much for having me in your home.
Holly Bourne
Thanks for coming around.
Hannah Witton
Thanks for the tea. I'm very excited to chat with you about your new book, Pretending. And then also just all about the themes in it. And I think the best place to start is to your protagonist, April, she has a very familiar job. I found, I was like, where have I seen this before? Care to explain?
Holly Bourne
Erm, so yes, April works for a charity for young people. And she works on the frontline services, answering young people's questions about their sex and relationship problems. Which Hannah, you'll be aware, considering when you sat next to each other as we both did this job for, what, a year, two years?
Hannah Witton
I was there just under a year. But you were there, like, for a long time. I never did the frontline answering questions.
Holly Bourne
You just saw the traumatic fallout of me doing it every day.
Hannah Witton
I pretty much just watched you doing it.
Holly Bourne
So yes. So April has a similar job to what we have. And because I think I wanted, for a long time, to explore what I saw when I did that job for those years, which was the kind of epidemic of sexual violence experienced by girls in their relationships. And then, since then, like Me Too has kind of come out and which has confirmed what I had already seen and what I already knew. And I was just, we I wanted to write a book sort of exploring trauma and sex and dating, because we're kind of talking about workplace changes and law changes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
but we're not really kind of talking about the fact that if one in five women are victims of rape and sexual assault, and I would argue the number is much higher than that. That means, like, for a guy on a Tinder day, like one in five dates, he will be with a survivor. And it's just, we're not talking about that. And I wanted to write a book that kind of explored that.
Hannah Witton
That's a really good point, actually. I was thinking of it the other way around, in terms of like, oh, potentially, like you're swiping left and right on someone who could potentially assault you. Not the other way around of like, oh, no, there are, survivors are out there living amongst us, like still dating, almost in silence, and not necessarily being seen and understood. I mean, that's almost, that's like the first scene in Pretending as well, where like, someone cannot handle the fact that she's had previous trauma,
Holly Bourne
Yeah, I wanted to kind of write a book about sexual violence, a) in a accessible and hopefully kind of fun way, which I think is possible to still be respectful, and I kind of trust that I've worked at that job a long time enough and did enough research because also it was just like, survivors aren't just like, in the corner of a room, like rocking back and forth, like their whole lives, you know. A lot of time, they are very funny, and they've got lots of friends, and they've kind of got their life together, and I kind of wanted a book that showed that. So I wanted to kind of explore something that a couple of years after a trauma, that it is, of course, a huge part of you, but also nothing to do with you, at the same time, and that you've got to be vulnerable to fall in love with someone, and how do you step into that vulnerability? And also, how do you tell someone about what happened to you? Do you tell them?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
And do you trust them to respond well.
Hannah Witton
And what if they don't respond to the way that you wanted them to?
Holly Bourne
And then you've just made yourself vulnerable, and then they've made it even worse, and it's just, I know this is happening, in the country, everywhere. And so I just wanted to kind of write a book about it to just be like these experiences that women are having and thoughts their having
Hannah Witton
How often did like questions about sexual assault and rape come up, when we were working at the charity?
Holly Bourne
So I would say, in a good shift, there would only be one or two rapes.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Holly Bourne
And what was so upsetting wasn't just that, was also the fact that they didn't always come across as rapes. They were in questions with young people going, oh, I've been raped, I don't know what to do. They were young people describing a rape, usually almost always with their partner or somebody that they knew, and then asking a question, sort of like, is that normal? Or -
Hannah Witton
Did I do something wrong?
Holly Bourne
Yeah, or, should I get the morning after pill? And didn't realise that they they are, they have technically, legally, been raped. And that was what, so it was like this epidemic of sexual violence and then this epidemic of complete ignorance about what rape is.
Hannah Witton
In those situations, what was the template answer? Because in the book, you've got these like, template answers, which is so harrowing and yet funny, in this like weird way of like, just bringing up the sexual violence template answer, your like, what world do we live in where there's this template answer?
Holly Bourne
I know.
Hannah Witton
But in those situations, because on the one hand, you want to help people understand, like, what happened to them, and that it's not their fault, and that, you know, the other person did a really bad thing. That sounds so childish, they did a naughty thing. But on the other hand, you don't want to, like force a word on to someone that they're like, no, that doesn't apply to me. Like, what is the balance?
Holly Bourne
And then because of, we were an online charity, you know, that kind of had further issues as well, because you're not face to face. So it's how do you show empathy for a keyboard, through a screen? And like lots of, you know, the work was tri, is it triage? I can never pronounce that right? Tridge?
Holly Bourne
But it's like, you know, just like looking after the person, and then helping them feel okay, and then pointing them in direction of the better help.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I don't know!
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
But we did write articles like, Was It Rape? Or Something Weird Happened, so then I could just signpost into that article. And then also be like, this word, this my word might seem a bit big for you, but you might want to ring this helpline, even if that word doesn't feel relevant right now, just because it sounds like really confusing and this helpline will help you be able to unpick it
Hannah Witton
Right.
Holly Bourne
So you're just -
Hannah Witton
That's like if you're signposting them to like rape crisis, but you don't want the word rape in the name of that organisation to deter them from seeking help.
Holly Bourne
Yeah, it was a very complicated, harrowing job, but also for best five years, professionally of my life. Like I love reading books, but like, the time at Youth Net, it's just, it was incredible. But I think what April finds in the book, and what I found, is like there was actually limit to how long you can swim in that pool.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So in the book, you've said, it's two year. Was that from like, personal experience of being on the front line, like you were like, five years?
Holly Bourne
But only frontline for two.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you were frontline for two! Oh, okay, so was that where that number came from? Or when you were working there, was that actually something that was said?
Holly Bourne
I got warned that it was two years. And then, like, I said something like, this is what I heard, I don't know it's definitely true. But they were like, if you're a straight woman, you can only do this job for two years. If you're a lesbian, you are okay.
Hannah Witton
What? Wow!
Holly Bourne
And that was, I found that fascinating. I'm not saying it's true or not true, but they were just like, because it just makes you so angry, like at men.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
It will affect, like it will affect your personal relationships. And so they were like, you will find it in lots of women's charities, you kind of need to be gay, almost, to kind of, which that I'm saying that, like it was said to me flippantly and I'm passing off , I'm not saying it's definitely the truth. But that's also what inspired the book with this idea of being a straight woman, wanting to fall in love with a man which means being vulnerable, but it means making yourself vulnerable if you're a feminist, to the group that you believe oppresses you. And, like the complete cognitive dissonance with that, and how complicated is to want to like shag your oppressor.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God! It's like living in Stockholm Syndrome.
Holly Bourne
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But permanently.
Holly Bourne
It's very odd, dating after fourth wave feminism, like it's very strange. And there's lots of complications. And women are so used to grooming themselves and pretending to be a certain way, in order to win romance. And then this kind of wave of feminism has come along and woken us all up to all the different ways that we should have equality. And then it's like, how to unlearn that in your romantic relationships, when also, have enough men ridden this like feminism wave to be in the dating pool with us? Or you having to like go, okay, well, he's not a feminist, but I like him anyway. I love him anyway. Can that exist? So it's just this kind of grotty mess that fourth wave feminism's created in dating, I'm like, let's find the book.
Hannah Witton
The men need to catch up, that's the thing.
Holly Bourne
Yeah, but like, what do you do in the meantime? And how do you find one? and how do you know there actually are feminists, rather than just saying it?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, how do you catch a feminist man? I've seen a lot of stuff like online recently about this trap of like the woke man, as well, where it's very performative.
Holly Bourne
The feminist fuck boy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's just like, I respect all your sexual choices, I like an empowered women to ride me all the time, in this position and that position. Because you're so empowered, because you like you fuck this way, I love a good empowered feminist woman.
Holly Bourne
Yeah, it's working out really well for men
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness,
Holly Bourne
It's confusing, and there's no answers. But I think it's good to ask the questions, to see if that will help people find their own answers.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. One of the things that you said you've set out to do is like make it fun. And I always find this with all of your books, like you just very funny. Very funny.
Holly Bourne
For our women!
Hannah Witton
You're just very funny! And you like literally start the book with like, I hate men. And as the general premise, your main character April just kind of ,like, not, gives up? I don't know how you would describe it, but she bet she's she creates like an alter ego, Manic-Pixie-Dream-Cool-Girl.
Holly Bourne
As a revenge.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, as I like, I don't deserve this anymore, but these men deserve to be treated the way that I have. Very like Jennifer's body, but maybe, I don't know, I've not read the whole thing, but maybe less murder? We'll find out. And I just wanted to, like know your thoughts on like, the Cool Girl thing because actually, I remember reading Gone Girl, whilst we were working at Youth Net together. Like, I specifically remember that concept being implanted in my head whilst we were working there. I was just like like, oh, my God, was that like a big influence in April's decision?
Holly Bourne
I think yeah, I think I remember reading Gone Girl and getting to that section of there book and remember, I was on a train, like a packed commuter train, and I read it and I just stood up. Just like stood up, like my body just launched itself into the air. And I was like, it was like, why is this girl standing up? Like we're not, are we at London Bridge yet? Like and everyone else standing up cuz they thought I knew something about the train. Erm I was just like, no, I just felt so seen by that passage, and it just crystallised so much in like the way that really good writing can. And so I think that's always, yeah, the Cool Girl. And there's been so many think pieces written about the Cool Girl and, about the Cool Girl and all this stuff, but also kind of like, well, what does she look like in 2020? What does the Cool Girl look like, post fourth wave feminism, post Me Too? Because you would think that actually, if you know, this wave had done everything that it needed to, women wouldn't need to pretend anymore in order to win romantic favour. But, so that's was the other thing that I was exploring when April pretends to be Gretel. Is like, what is the perfect woman to men? And is it something men actually really want? Or is it something that girls, is like the idea of a manic-pixie-dream-girl with no problems, like, is that something we use, to beat ourselves up about?
Hannah Witton
And also, I think there's a difference between what kind of person is fun to date, and what you might need to do in order to like, get someone's initial attention versus what traits and what you kind of need to do to maintain a healthy relationship. Like, I genuinely actually believe that those two things are actually quite different. So like, all of the tricks that a Cool Girl might play, along with all of the tricks that a pickup artist might play, they genuinely work on people, they genuinely work, because it's like weird psychological mind games that work on us because we're human. But none of those things work in relationships.
Holly Bourne
Yeah, because you have to be vulnerable.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
And you have to be like, oh, here's like, the most shitty part of me. I'm just gonna, like flop it onto a plate and hold it out to you and go, please love me anyway, love me anyway. And then like, that's the transformation that can come from like healthy, grounded, relationships and love, and how healing that can actually be, and how it's completely goes against how we date and the games that we play. Because, you know, like, that's the other thing that kind of book explores is like, what are we all pretending? And I don't know, to me sometimes Gretel, or Cool Girl, the other thing that I was thinking about is how it relates to women. And how I'm like, is it us? Like, would we be that way, if it wasn't for the patriarchy?
Hannah Witton
No. I think the answer is no.
Holly Bourne
No, but it's almost like, is this manic pixie, like, would I be more chilled? Would I be more this? Would I be more that? Would I be more what men would want me to be if it wasn't for men? Like I'm like, you made me this!
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
And then you want me to not be this way? And that was, like I kind of feel like we're all pretending to be something that we're not, which is oppressed. And in so many, and how oppression -
Hannah Witton
And it's a survival mechanism, in some ways
Holly Bourne
And how oppression can make you angry, and make you unreasonable, make you nag, or in because you don't really have a voice and so you get really passive aggressive, and make you like the psycho bitch, and all this sort of stuff.
Hannah Witton
And all of those traits, like I see myself like emerging, with like, a few of those here and there, and you have to, I'm always like catching myself being like, no, I don't want to become that person. And then I'm like, well, what is that person? Someone who's like, demanding respect? And someone who's like asking for what they want and actually is, like, requires some effort on their part. Like, why is that so bad? And then I'm like, but why, in my head, am I'm like, oh, no, I don't want to become this nagging bitch. Wild.
Holly Bourne
It's a job has been done very well, in how to get women to behave romantically in heterosexual relationships, and it just ignores the reality of what oppression does to someone. And yeah, but like, you know, in terms of sexual violence, it's like the way that manifests in your sex life, and your romantic life. Like, you know, the Cool Girl isn't kind of going, oh do you mind if we don't have sex in this position, because it triggers me about my rape? Yeah, like Jennifer Lawrence isn't gonna be saying that, you know, just whilst she's burping and being like, so chill. But like, for so many women, they've got to try and step into that space and say that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
But then feel like there's something wrong with them, because they're not chill and complicated and messy. And it's not their fault that they're this way. And they're still trying to find love, and yet they're scared that they have to hide their trauma in order to be romantically acceptable.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think also, one of the things I really like that you address in Pretending is about how, like, there's nothing wrong with actually wanting love, and wanting connection, and wanting a relationship. Because I think also, you can then go down the route of like, why do you want those things anyway? You know, like, you can be happy, and you can be single, which is obviously true. But then we almost like punish people for being like, but I want a relationship, that's something that I desire.
Holly Bourne
Yeah. And when I was like working sort of as a relationship advisor, with you, you know, you just you learn about attachment, and how, you know, we're wired to attach, we're wired to have these, you know, physically intimate relationships. You know, love is the world's greatest leveller. You know, you could be like a top CEO. You know, he earns millions, millions of pounds and is really powerful, but nobody loves you. You can't actually buy that. You can pretend that you've bought it by hiring people, you know. And the idea that you can, you're a survivor, and then that means you don't want to be loved. Or you're just gonna check out like, that's not true, like most people really want to be loved. And I think you can, of course, be happy if you're self partnered.
Hannah Witton
Love it. People get so much stick for that.
Holly Bourne
There's nothing like it's just like, you look at attachment. Look how it works. And like a vast majority of people, no matter how much they're killing it inthe rest of our lives, wants to be loved. And that's not shameful, we should embrace that. Like, that is what makes human beings amazing, like love is what makes human beings amazing.
Hannah Witton
It's pretty damn good. I remember, I think it was when you were touring for It Only Happens In The Movies, and I interviewed you in Birmingham. And I remember one of the things that you said, which was, because the whole, like, the premise of that book is all about, like, you know, the tropes in romantic movies, and then actually being a bit like unhealthy, in abusive relationships. And you were like, a healthy relationship is just okay, all of the time. Do you remember saying that?
Holly Bourne
Is that what I said?
Hannah Witton
Because, like, you don't have these like, massive highs, and then these like devastating lows.
Holly Bourne
Just genuinely, consistently, you're okay. Just like, of course, you row, and you don't, it is not just like, yeah, in extreme. Consistently, you're like, oh, I like you, you like me. I feel loved, I feel respected. Yeah, I think genuinely, but that's not very interesting. Stability isn't sexy, but like it's, you know, stability is what you should be looking for. And I think so many times, people. I mean, I don't want to generalise but I'm going to, mistake sort of attachment trauma to chemistry.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
And it's like, oh, I've just we've got this incredible chemistry, like, and it's so hot. And I'm a bit like, I guess to some degree, maybe like, because you've got different pheromones, but it's usually something to do with early childhood development. And you're actually, you know, they're bad and it's people just misfiring on each other, and causing each other a lot of pain, and they don't even understand why, but they're like, but it's so hot. And that needs to be a challenged. Like, I think chemistry is of course, very important. You, like, want to fancy the person you're in relationship with, but you don't want to be like Sid and Nancy, you know?
Hannah Witton
No, not like that.
Holly Bourne
And just like, oh my god, it's just like it's so terrible and it's terrible and as awful but it's so amazing on the teeny amount of time it's not terrible. It's just like that's not good for people not long term.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that person can be your fuck buddy and then have like nothing to do with him emotionally. But just be aware.
Holly Bourne
Yeah. If you're able to compartmentalise
Hannah Witton
Yeah, if you can, but also be, like honest of yourself about if you cannot cut that?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because I brought up the YA book actually one of the things I was curious about is, how do you or do you even think about this at all, go about writing sex scenes differently for YA and adults?
Holly Bourne
I have like, lots of the rules still apply. So I have this weird thing where I never will ever never ever have I, write a female character, who can orgasm through penetration alone
Hannah Witton
That's a great rule to have!
Holly Bourne
Just a bit like, I think it's 75% of women can't, almost 100% of any sex scene, you ever see, watch, digest, shows the twit that 25% who can. And I'm like, I'm just gonna do the work
Hannah Witton
For the 75%.
Holly Bourne
Just to, like, normalise that shit, and make people feel better about it and like start discussions about it. And so I do that in my YA, as well as I want the character to need clitoral stimulation to orgasm. Just like, just because like, I'm like, having to carry a lot of weight here, other storytellers.
Hannah Witton
Hint, hint.
Holly Bourne
So there's that. No, I think it's mainly the same. No, maybe, no, no, because I think in adult fiction, you can kind of show people actually having sex a bit more reason, whereas in YA, I'm a little bit more James Bond, you leave, kind of, a trail of clothes. And but I and I find sex hard to write just because I really want to tell the truth about it. But that is embarrassing to write because my parents read my books.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Holly Bourne
And, like, so I always have that in my head. I wouldn't put a sex scene in a book, unless it's related to the story. Even though I like think it's really fun to read sex scenes in books, especially like really good, well written ones, rather than just weird ones that men have written. Right? Where you're just like, who's boobs do that during sex? Like, what is happening? That's not sex. What have you been doing?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like I don't relate to this, at all.
Holly Bourne
I know, just, I mean, I'll just have a bitch, privately, after this podcast about all the male written sex scenes, that I hate.
Hannah Witton
Ooo, I can't wait!
Holly Bourne
However, some have won, which won like awards, and I'm like, but she wouldn't have come that way! Don't give that a Literary Award? He's meant to be telling the truth about life! She's in a library, she's a virgin, and she's orgasming up against the wall, like no! Fucking booker. Yes, but I only put sex if it's related to the story. And of course in Pretending, because she's a survivor, and has not really dealt with her trauma, and obviously, sex is an issue. So I've had to like, write that. But yeah, I followed my kind of rules.
Hannah Witton
Follow the rules. No, I really admire that rule. It's important work. You just got angry then, and I love it. I actually was texting a friend, she was like, oh, who are you going to interview? And I was like, Oh, Holly Bourne, and I was like, can't can't wait to chat through all of like, the angry feminist stuff. Like, but like, in a way that I'm like, no, but I love it. Because like, I think sometimes I feel like I get too complacent. And often conversations with you, I'm like, wait, yes, no, I should be angry about these things. No, don't like, it's a good thing.
Holly Bourne
I'm a very jolly, angry person. Yeah, I think I carry my anger in with quite a lot of giggles.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
Which hopefully makes me more palatable to men.
Hannah Witton
And just to society in general. And I don't know if this is something that you found. I also, I just find it funny because like, knowing you and reading your books, especially your adult books, I'm like, I can, like feel the things that Holly is passionate about, and feel the things that you care about, like coming through in these in these stories. And like, with How Do You Like Me Now? I felt like that was like, a hate letter to life expectations and social media. And so far with Pretending I'm like, Oh, this is a hate letter to man and the patriarchy. No, no, but like, in like, just as a general, if I would like to have to give it like one label, which obviously it's more than that. But like, do you find that like, writing through these things is really helpful for you? Or like help you add, because I feel like that it's brilliantly like nuanced as well like, almost like your characters are doing the like angry generalising, and it's helping the reader actually being that voice of reason. Does that make sense?
Holly Bourne
Yeah, I would hope I'm more balanced and the characters I write.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's some moments where you're really laughing at the character for being so unbalanced.
Holly Bourne
Yeah. And that's always the concern, in fiction, isn’t it, like are the people can think this is me? Of course, like, your life informs your art, but I think I read Sally Rooney say like the job as a writer is to like, work out what gets in and what stays out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
In that, it's the work, and that's how fiction is. And I would, yeah, I would never want to write a book about trauma, if I didn't understand it properly. And if I didn't, I wasn't, you know, felt very well equipped to write about it. And so she's, you know, April's very angry, and I have been angry enough to want to write a book about this issue, because I think it's really important. But my, you know, I can see where she's coming from, but I'm a bit more like, this is what you need to do, and maybe you need to have a bit more hope. And if you keep reading, it might not be such a hate letter, there might be a bit of love, but that was one of the questions.
Hannah Witton
That's what I'm expecting it to happen, like I was going to ask actually, because, like, at the point where obviously, I'm at an April story, she's like, full of rage. And I'm like, okay, this is gonna be really interesting to see, like, if you do bring her to a more balanced state, or like, at what point does it all, like come crashing down, you know, when you're just like, anticipating that. And I was wondering how you do that, in terms of like, balance, like we kind of talked about a bit like that, that just that balancing act constantly of like, you know, sometimes you just do need those chats with your friends, or you're just like, men are trash. But then how would you do that, with the nuance of like, oh, but, you know, my personal relationships with the men that I've chosen to keep in my life are great. But then also, men are trash. It's so difficult, that balancing act.
Holly Bourne
It's, yeah, and it's hard. It's trying, like, and that's what I kind of wanted the book to explore. Are there good men? I remember when I was like, pitching it to my agent halfway through writing it and I was like, I sounded like the most mental person. I was like, I think I basically, without meaning to, doing a feminist retelling of the second Lord of the Rings book. And she's just like, okay, like, what? And I was like, well, there's April pretending to be Gretel like, and I was like, that's Smeagol and Gollum.
Hannah Witton
Love it!
Holly Bourne
And then like, in the two towers, like the big question of that book is like, is there hope for men? That's like, what the thing is.
Hannah Witton
Oh so it's like men in the way that in Lord of the Rings, yeah.
Holly Bourne
And so I was like, this is like a weird feminist retelling. Where like, April is like Gollum/Smeagol hybrid. And it's the question is like, is there hope in men? And so she starts at the book going, I hate men, and just going on his massive rant that I crowdsourced. So I was like, tell me everything that you hate about men and people coming to me such specific stuff, which once they said it, I was like, Oh!
Hannah Witton
I was gonna ask about that, because some of the stuff is so specific, but just like hits the nail on the head.
Holly Bourne
Like how they go to a house party, and they just suddenly take over the music, any house party. Or they'll just move furniture, you'll go to some, like you're in somebody else's house now, like, this chair is not where I want it to be, huh without asking. And the moment this women said it, it's like, Oh, you're right. And she goes in this huge rant at the start of book with all of the reasons she hates men, and then at the end of chapter and she's like, oh, he texts back. Never mind, I'm fine. And it was like,
Hannah Witton
That's the beginning of two towers! Like, that's how the beginning, no, wait, no, that's the beginning of Return of the King, isn't it? Or it's the end of it. Where Smeagol's like going back and forth.
Holly Bourne
Yeah. So that's why, I even had a scene where she's like, later on, you'll get there like where April's actually having conversation with Gretel. And it gets very Smeagoly!
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, I'm so going to be thinking about that now, as I go through the rest of the book! I love it!
Holly Bourne
I guess, as somebody who as the as the writer rather than the character, I had to ask myself a question, do I believe in men? Like, what's the ending of this book? Like, what -
Hannah Witton
Do you want it to be hopeful?
Holly Bourne
Do I want it to be hopeful? Do I want it to be realistic? Considering I spent so long working at that charity, and it really, really did ruin my relationship with men for a long time. And I was in psychoanalytic, analytic counselling the whole time, you know, to kind of keep an eye on it. But you can't, it's one hour every two weeks can't undo like rapes every single thing. And the analogy that I remember my psychologist at the time said to me was, if you worked for a dog bite victim charity -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
Like where just every day you just had like kids and people coming to you with just like with dog bites, because dogs have bitten them, you would start to not like dogs.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
Like -
Hannah Witton
You would really hate dogs.
Holly Bourne
Yeah, you would just start being like dogs just bite people all the time. And she was like, but you are seeing that. And so I had, did a lot of work and I remember I went on a really, really long walk because I didn't know how this book was going to end. And then the end, like the chapter route itself in my head a bit like, not like JK Rowling. Well, she's very different breed, but like, I was like -
Hannah Witton
Like Elizabeth Gilbert's Genie.
Holly Bourne
Yeah. And I was I knew what I believe, and have, to some degree, got my character there. But it's up for debate. It's a conversation starter, it's not like this is how you should be.
Hannah Witton
No, I'm excited to get to the end of that. So that there are a few, just like, bits that have like, almost made me not, like laugh out loud, but then also just like, cry internally. My own, like hypocrisy, but also April, it's like, it's that thing where like, you're like, oh shit, Holly's just exposing all of us and like, like April will have thoughts that like because the book is just an internal monologue, those are thoughts that are your private thoughts. And one that I found very funny was when she talks about walking past a homeless man and saying she doesn't have any change but being like, but I'm better than everyone else, because at least I said something to him. And I was like, oh, shit, I do that. And I think that, but I just find it very, like sometimes I think you come out with these things that I'm just like, how is Holly's like nailing human behaviour.
Holly Bourne
I read a lot of books about psychology, and I just have to take a punt that maybe some of the thoughts that I have, that I'm not so proud of -
Hannah Witton
That other people might have them too.
Holly Bourne
I'm not like this special human being like, I'm no different from anyone else. I'm like, I'm gonna just take a punt and be like this problematic for or feeling I have, when I see somebody or what you know, like in sex, in relationships, in female friendship. And we're always gonna take a punt, I'm not the only one and I'm gonna just write it down. Because I think shame makes things worse, or like denying that. And actually, if you kind of get it into the oxygen, oxygenate these things and then we examine them, then maybe we can dislodge them a bit. Or if we're just kind of pretending like the book is always about -
Hannah Witton
Like just allowing yourself then to continue to have those thoughts rather than like, at least now I know that the next time I catch myself having any kind of thought that I deem problematic, I'd be like, hang on a second, what is going on here? Like, stop that.
Holly Bourne
And your thoughts aren't who you are? Your actions are who you are like. It's a bit like you are a result of your actions on people. And your thoughts are just noise. And it's just whether or not you listen to the noise or not, or you give into the noise if the noise is telling you to do something problematic, and you do it anyway.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Holly Bourne
Then that says something about you. But if you have a thought that you're ashamed of, but you're like, I don't want to act on that, because I think that action would harm someone, then actually, you're better than your thoughts.
Hannah Witton
This is a slight tangent, but it just made me remember, a lot of people talking online recently about whether their thoughts were like an actual voice, like an internal monologue, or like, abstract, which are you?
Holly Bourne
I think I'm abstract.
Hannah Witton
I'm abstract too, thank you!
Holly Bourne
So some people just have like Morgan Freeman in their head going, and then I went to the supermarket, and I once -
Hannah Witton
Dan says he has a voice, but it's his voice. So it's like, what if we did this? Oh, look over there like, Oh, la la la. And when we had this conversation, not even kidding, my first question to him was, what's the voice say about me?
Holly Bourne
He's, he's a wise man. He wouldn't have been honest.
Hannah Witton
Like, what does that say about me? He's like, no, but the voice is me. So, like -
Holly Bourne
Yeah, I think I just kind of have floaty, ethereal thoughts.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It made no sense to me. It's like, I cannot comprehend.
Holly Bourne
Oh, that must be tiring. Do they like their voices, these people? Or are they just don't know any different.
Hannah Witton
This is the thing, it's that you just don't you just think that that's how everyone thinks. And now I'm fascinated by how people think. Because I'm like, we'll never truly know what the human experience of having thoughts is like, for everyone else.
Holly Bourne
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Ee'll never know. Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent, but it really freaked me out. I have another question about, like, we've talked a lot about all of the things that were bothering you and why you wanted to, like, address the themes in the book. What was like the final straw of like, no, this book has happened. So like, April, she has her like, final straw of like, right, screw it, I'm going to pretend to be this Cool Girl Gretel woman. But obviously it's like lots and lots of things build and build and then what for you was the like, the moment of like, no, alright, this is my gonna be my next book
Holly Bourne
It's weird, because I'm trying to remember. So the one thing that happened, that maybe started writing this book, is I had been out in London and I wasn't living in London at the time. So I was having to get like some last train home fiasco situation where I'm just like, Oh, I hate my life. And the trains were a little bit like screwed, as they always are. And I'd like had a few drinks, I was in a really good mood and I was like, a really nice, like floofy skirt. When I had my laptop in my bag, because I had been working before I went to an event and I was I remember looking at the train staff at Victoria train station to try and figure out my train. And some guy came up to me and was like, I just have to tell you how beautiful you are.
Hannah Witton
Did he stay or then did he leave?
Holly Bourne
No, in that moment, I think because I was just like in such a kind of jolly mood, I was feeling really confident just because had a great night. I was just like, I'm going to call him on this, and so just turned to him and went, I don't care that you find me attractive, like that, like I don't need to know that. I don't need to know that. I'm just trying to get my train home.
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Holly Bourne
And then of course, he erupted and was like, fuck you fucking bitch, you're like blah blah blah. And like, and then was like arguing with me about why I'm wrong because I couldn't take a compliment and I wouldn't get it and then -
Hannah Witton
I swear the 0 to 100% defensive, it's like -
Holly Bourne
It's like it's almost like he, the compliment was actually hate, and came from a place of hate rather than a genuine compliment, I would argue.
Hannah Witton
So it's actually not from 0 to 100. It's like from 90 disguised 90% to a hundred.
Holly Bourne
That's what I believe. Like, if you like basically kind of wanting to go up to a random woman, who you've no idea what's going on in her life, to let her know that tick, I find you fuckable, like that, actually, I think comes from a place of hate rather than I just appreciate women. I'm like, no, you're trying to dominate some random woman trying to look at the train table. Just to let her know that, even though she has not even noticed you, like, it's important for you to know that you would fuck her. It's just dark. And then the darkness comes when you put light on it, when I was like, I don't need to know that, I'm trying to get home. And then Whaaa! And he wouldn't let it go, and to the point where he just yelled at me. I was like, I'm going to go away now, cuz you're like screaming at me. And like I went to WHSmith, my safe space, and he followed me and he just followed me around. And I went from having a lovely evening to just hating him, hating myself. I was like, why didn't I just say thank you, why didn't I told my boyfriend like all this.
Hannah Witton
Like, why didn't you just follow the script.
Holly Bourne
Yeah. Why didn't I go, thank you so much. I'm so glad, random man, that you think I'm attractive. Like, that's what I've been hoping for my whole life. Do you want to go have sex in the bathroom? Like what did he expect to happen? Anyway, so all this, I'm getting so angry just remembering it! So, I sat down, finally got on my train was just like, ahhhh, got out my laptop, and just like and just started writing the words, I hate men. And then that chapter just started spilling out. And then I thought the joke, which was, but I hate them and this anger is real, and I hate them, I never want anything to do with him. But then remembering how I feel when the guy I like texts me back, where I'm like, I love him, I'll do anything to make him like me back. And that's where I came from.
Hannah Witton
I love it.
Holly Bourne
So thank you, dude. Randomly at Victoria station, I got a book out of you.
Hannah Witton
You got a book out of it, thanks for the content. I think that's a really great place to end it. Thank you so much, Holly.
Holly Bourne
Oh, thank you so much. It's so great to hang out with you, dude.
Hannah Witton
I know, love it. Pretending is out on the 2nd of April
Holly Bourne
Right in the peak of a pandemic, guys. Batten down your hatches and read.
Hannah Witton
Yeah!
Holly Bourne
And wash your hands.
Hannah Witton
Wash your hands before you touch your books. Oh, goodness. Thank you so much for listening, bye. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
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