Sex Worker Rights with Lady Charlotte Rose | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Lady Charlotte Rose
There are various different ways that she can do that safely, ensuring that they sterilise their hands before they come through the door, make sure that they're wearing a mask. My normal procedure would be to always put my client in the shower prior to coming to see me. It's a difficult one when you've got a shared facility. He needs to be looking at the routes coming in and out of the flat, does it go past her flatmates door? If it does, then she really, nobody should be entering that. If her room is closest to the door, then she can make a kind of quarantine area that when her friend is at home that she stays behind that door or behind that screen while she's working.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. This week's topic is one we've briefly touched on before with things like online sex work, but in this episode, we lay it all out. My guest today is Lady Charlotte Rose, who is a multi award winning sex worker, radio presenter, author, political campaigner, mother, and serial wanker. As someone who calls myself a feminist, sex work is something I've heard a lot about, and had opinions about, from the beginning. But it wasn't until I actually started looking into it and understanding it from the perspective of sex workers that my views changed. This episode is all about sex work, specifically in person sex work, but we also chat a bit about online spaces such as Only Fans and how the internet can be great but also terrible for sex workers. We discussed the laws around sex work in the UK and the campaign for decriminalisation. You may have heard of the Nordic model, which is the criminalization of the purchasing of sex rather than the sale of it. We talked about this in the episode, and how it can still negatively impact the safety of sex workers. The first country to decriminalise sex work was actually New Zealand in 2003, five years after the Prostitution Reform Act was introduced. The Prostitution Law Review Committee, in New Zealand, said the sex industry has not increased in size, and many of the social evils predicted by some who opposed the decriminalisation of the sex industry have not been experienced. On the whole, the PRA has been effective in achieving his purpose, and the committee is confident that the vast majority of people involved in the sex industry, are better off under the PRA than they were previously. Whatever your preconceived notions and assumptions about sex work are, I highly encourage you to listen to this episode with an open mind. Charlotte Rose began in sex work in 1997, and has done things from being in the love for sale documentary to organising facesitting protests. We chat about Charlotte's experiences in the sex industry, apps that exist for sex workers safety, what the decriminalisation of sex work means versus the legalisation of it, and the impacts of COVID on the sex industry. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over on DoingItPodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. And, without further ado, here's my chat with Lady Charlotte Rose. Hello, welcome. Thank you so much for chatting with me.
Lady Charlotte Rose
No problem.
Hannah Witton
Before we begin, you told me that you have a funny story about your name, and why you're called what you're called. Please dive in.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Okay, so um, basically, I ran for parliament, I ran for MP twice. And they wouldn't let me go by my birth name. So, as people know me as Charlotte Rose. So I said right, give me 24 hours. So I went and changed my name by deed poll and the lady who was there, when I was having it changed, she goes, right what do you want? I said, I'll have Charlotte Rose, please. She goes, do you want anything else? I said, Well, what do you mean? Anything else? She goes, well, you can stick a Lady in there, if you want. I go, you know what, that's got a kind of a ring to it, I'll do it. So I change my name. So my first name is Lady, my middle name is Charlotte, and my last name is Rose. And because I work in sex, the tagline came about the first Lady of sex, because my first name is lady and I work in sex so
Hannah Witton
Amazing
Lady Charlotte Rose
Introduced me as the first lady of sex. There you are.
Hannah Witton
There we go. Well, welcome first Lady of sex, Lady Charlotte Rose. A-mazing. I'm now really confused as to like, are there rules about what your name can be, if you're running for Parliament?
Lady Charlotte Rose
I don't think they mind. Well, the problem was, is that I didn't want my birth name to be presented on on the, on the TV because I've always tried to keep anonymity, for my family.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lady Charlotte Rose
And whereas, you know, times have changed and things like that and, and, and, you know, I've kind of, since my partner passed away, I've kind of broken away slightly from, from the, from the prime primary work of sex work that I've been doing. So I've kind of introduced a bit more of my personal side, alongside Charlotte Rose, as well. So, you know, not so fussed these days. But back then, you know, I ran in both by-elections, which was quite historical. You know, to be stood next to Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless, I thought, you know, I've got to have something a little bit proper. And it was just fantastic. Yeah, so I was on Sky News, and when they read out my name on Sky News, I kind of brushed my left shoulders as if to say, alright, yeah
Hannah Witton
Like that's me , I'm a Lady. Amazing. Oh, I love that. So I wanted to get a bit more about you actually, like how did you start talking about sex, advocating about sex, working within the sex industry, like what is your hero's journey?
Lady Charlotte Rose
So, um, I started as a sex worker in 1997. Well, it was more like modelling. I was 17. I did some domination modelling. And then I got into doing some films. And then I went behind, I was behind the camera, I produced a couple of magazines for domination, I produced three magazines. And then and then I started a family. So I came away from sex work. And then I got back into it when I was about 21. Just more escorting, and I had a relationship breakdown with the guy that I had children with, and so I moved away. I filled up my car, you know, it's really strange because I filled up my car, I put the kids in the front seat, I feel that the car was as much as I could and I just got on the road and I drove and I drove and drove and I ran out of road. I started off in Nottingham, and I found myself in Devon. And there was a fork in the road of Torquay or Plymouth and I thought anything with a name with a key in it must be good. So I got to Torquay, and I set up there, I then went back to university. I got a Bachelor in Science degree in Hospitality. Then I went into teaching, realised I don't like kids, kids. So I then did some and then I went back to sex work. And then I open up a nightclub and stuff like this. And once I had my nightclub, I heard Rupert Everett, the actor, contacted me that he was doing a documentary called Love For Sale for Channel Four. And I said, Yeah, that sounds great. So I did this documentary with him, and my next door neighbour saw it, it was ever so weird because the day it aired, I was blonde. So I then dyed my hair brown so that my neighbours wouldn't kind of recognise me. And then The Wright Stuff wanted me to go on the next day. So I was trying to dye my hair back blonde, which made me ginger. So I was when I was on The Wright Stuff, but my next door neighbour saw it, complained to my landlord, which then got me evicted. And yeah, and when I was,
Hannah Witton
So, what was the documentary about, sorry?
Lady Charlotte Rose
So it's called Love For Sale, it's in two parts, and Rupert travels the country looking for people within the sex industry. He wanted to, he wanted to show the sex industry in a more, not necessarily not necessarily a positive light, but not necessarily a negative light, but more in a natural light. And I think it came across really, really well. He had his, one of his best friends was a sex worker, who was killed in France. So he really wanted to, he really wanted to open up, you know. He talks right in the beginnings. He's opening speeches about actors how actors are whores, and you know, who is the who is the whore here? And, you know, it's just the, what he does is, he does it fantastically, and you should watch it, you can still watch it Channel Four. I'm sure you'll be able to, it's been archived, and you can watch it. But yeah, the problem with that I was then evicted. And I've obviously, I was still I was just, we just finished our first year of the sex workers opera. And we were touring
Hannah Witton
I went to see that.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yes, it's fantastic. Well, you're, you're very fortunate to have seen it because we finished productions. The last production that we did was when we were toured out to Nepal. But we're actually in the process of putting together a film so it's like the 21st Century Rocky Horror Show film, called the Sex Workers Opera. So that's in the, that's in the pipeline. So we're just finishing
Hannah Witton
Amazing
Lady Charlotte Rose
Our first year of London. I think we did, we did a month's worth of shows in London. That was at the Pleasance Theatre and, and I got this
Hannah Witton
Oh, I went to see a different venue, it must have been a different run.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, I mean, we started in 2014. So there, was it 2014? Yeah 2014 to 2015. So, early December, January. So, yes, it was. No, it was definitely 2014 it was and that was at the ark was at the Arcola theatre,
Hannah Witton
I can't remember I definitely went with my current partner, and we got together at the end of 2016. So I probably saw it in 2017, at some point, it was brilliant.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Ah yeah, three years in
Hannah Witton
What were you, what food were you fucking on the stage?
Lady Charlotte Rose
In that year, a pineapple or a watermelon
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I think it might have been the watermelon
Lady Charlotte Rose
Right, so I had
Hannah Witton
That was my introduction to you.
Lady Charlotte Rose
I had a butternut squash, a watermelon, and I had a pineapple. Yeah, cuz I was, I was playing with my clit with the spiky pineapple.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my goodness, amazing.
Lady Charlotte Rose
You know, I had kind of established this, this family within within the sex worker community of the opera and I felt so much at home, I can remember when I left, I left the production the first ever, I was in, I was in tears for at least two days because being in a community group of people just like you, that are dehumanised and treated so badly from the general public, it's, it's so it leaves you vulnerable to be open enough and and let other people in. And it's such a wonderful warming feeling. And, and I kind of knew that when this documentary came out, and that happened, I just said to myself, I was on the coach to London, reading my letter. And I was just thinking about it and I thought, you know, should I and it wasn't till the evening, we finished doing a production. And I found out my daughter, because my daughter was living with me whilst my son was still in Nottingham. And I said to her, I said, do you fancy moving to London? And she said, yeah. So I goes, okay, then we'll do it do that. Then she goes, are you serious? I said, Yeah. So four weeks later, we moved to London. And so the whole the whole element of as soon as I moved to London, I then stood, somebody reached out to me and said about the R18 laws, were the unelected officials had gone in to change the porn laws to state that certain activities could no longer be produced in pornography.
Hannah Witton
Ah, yeah, I remember that.
Lady Charlotte Rose
And so yeah, I thought, um, somebody reached out and said, they need somebody to help. And I said, Well, you know, I've just moved here, I haven't got much plans yet. I'll help. I'll do something. So I wrote a speech and I set up a, a protest. And this protest went global. I did. I think I did about 54 interviews from different stations around the world that day. And yeah, people call it the the porn protest, or the face sitting protest.
Hannah Witton
The face sitting protests, yeah
Lady Charlotte Rose
And that's kind of like where it all began. Because, you know, I had been, I'd been shamed by my neighbour. And I just thought, so well, actually, you know, I've missed a bit. Let's just go prior, back to
Hannah Witton
Rewind
Lady Charlotte Rose
Rewind. So, we're going back just before the documentary, and I had this nightclub, and I had this guy, email me. And he said to me, I know who you are. If you don't give me free sex and money, I'm going to out to you to the public. And I was really scared by this, and I remember speaking to my good friend, Laura Lee, bless her soul, about this, because I know that she had gone through some turmoil, because I turned down a documentary called Sex on Wheels, and I know that she did it. So I thought, right, I'm going to reach out to her. And she she told me something that changed my life forever, really, because she said to me, it's all or nothing. So I thought, you know what, fuck him. It's all or nothing, I'm going to do, I'm going to do this. So I researched all the information that I had in the email and the email address, I managed to get an IP address. I chased him down. I've got his lead all the way back to a blog. I've got his phone number, I got his Facebook, I've got his engagement details of his fiancé. And I called him and I said, I said, hello. He goes, hello. I said, it's Charlotte Rose here. He goes, who? I go, you've just emailed me, blackmailing me, that if I don't give you free sex and money, you're gonna out me to the papers. He goes, Oh, no, that wasn't me. I goes, oh it wasn't you. And he said, no. I goes well, don't worry, I've got your IP address, when I forward this on to the police and they get it, the details, If it doesn't come back to you, you'll be alright. Not not nothing to worry about. He goes, oh, okay, all right, cheers. In about 10 to 15 seconds, I got a text message back from and saying, I'm really sorry, my friend stole my phone, and my friend got access to my emails. And that was it, when I thought you know what, fuck you, I'm going to do this documentary. And that's kind of where it all spiralled. I did the documentary with Love for Sale, it got me evicted, I did the protest, it gave me a platform and I thought they, you know, sex workers are getting publicly shamed and dehumanised all the time from people who just don't understand. I've gone through so much, there's not much more you can really do to me. So I'm going to make a stand, I'm going to try and, and speak not on on not on sex workers behalf but on my voice on my, my, my personal experiences. And if that can change the way somebody can see me, then maybe something can be done for others in the long term. And that's where it started. Because, you know, sex workers, there are so many sex workers out there that get violated daily, they get bullied. They get penalised by people who think that they have power over them, and they feel they're voiceless. So if I can be a voice, then that's where I kind of I thought, yeah, sod it, sod it, what more can you possibly do to me? But I did get evicted again.
Hannah Witton
Oh, goodness, honestly, like, the more I learn about sex workers and sex worker rights and stuff, it's just so clear how society views them as like, the bottom of the ladder, like, yeah, literally just fat at the bottom, like the least regarded the most stigmatised.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, we're on the same level of MPs. Yeah. Yeah
Hannah Witton
Exactly. I wondered if you could give us a little intro, for those who don't know, what the like legal status sex workers in the UK, because a lot of people don't realise that selling sex for money, and sex work is legal in the UK. But there are other caveats to that.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Well, you've pretty much said it.
Hannah Witton
What are the caveats then.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Okay, so sex work in England is perfectly legal. You can, you can, it's so it's, you can sell sex from a private abode. You can sell sex for a hotel room, providing you're on your own. You cannot be with another sex worker for safety, which is classified as a brothel, which is breaking the law. And at the moment, you've got Northern Ireland, which is sex work is criminalised. Which means that it's still legal to have to sell sex, but it's illegal to purchase sex.
Hannah Witton
Oh, well that's confusing.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yes. You know, it's like, I mean, this is it's like the tale that we tell in the sex workers opera, the fisherman's tale that you know, you've got this guy that goes out on a boat, he has been fishing all his life, he knows how to keep himself safe. And he goes out and he fishes and he feeds his family with what he gets. And then the next day, two government officials come along and say, hey, Mr. fisherman, we've got a nicer sea for you. It's calm, it's cool. There's nothing to worry about. There's no danger. So the fisherman goes, well, that actually sounds alright. So when he gets there, and you know, he's he's absolutely right. The government men were correct. It is calm. It is warm. There's no dangers, but there's also no fish.
Hannah Witton
Oh, well.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah. And that's the problem is that you get people that think that, believe that they know what's right for sex workers, because they're reading the statistics under trafficking or coercion, rather than listening to voices of prostitutes of what it is. And the minute you start classifying the two together, as one, that's where the danger comes in.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that's where like the US like FOSTA-SESTA laws, which were put in place to tackle trafficking, but have inadvertently just impacted sex workers who aren't trafficked.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, yeah, major. And they've also created, so it gave them premise to create a software that identifies hotel rooms. And what they've done is they took photos of the majority of hotel suites within America to be able to identify photos of women on any form of platform, so that the police are aware of whereabouts that photo was taken. And they got the, they got the all clear to do that under the under the circumstances that it is to help trafficked women. When actually it's just there to identify solo travellers, and that's where it's problematic. When you go to the hotels as a solo female within the UK, whether you're a sex worker or not, you're automatically presumed to be one. And, you know, it's this kind of, it's this kind of hatefulness, rather than understanding sex work. It's, you know, that that whole society that's the misogynistic view of women is always going to be there if we don't do something about it. And you know, opportunities like this for any sex worker to come on our shows as, as prevalent as yours, my love, is fantastic. So thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
No, no, absolutely. Thanks for like sharing your experience and everything. On the brothel keeping note, just wanted to clarify. So like if you had a housemate, like a friend that you lived with who, you were a sex worker, and they were also a sex worker, if either of you worked from home, so like, had clients at home, that would be illegal.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yep, yes. And also, if so, Hannah, if you and I were a sex worker, and we knew each other and we worked in a hotel that had 1000 bedrooms, despite the factors not knowing that each of us was working that night in that hotel, we can still be done for brothel keeping, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, just because we knew each other
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, it's about buildings, it's ridiculous. It's so ridiculous
Hannah Witton
It really is. Okay. So this is huge campaign, or at least from from what I see on online, erm sex workers have been campaigning for, and advocating for, the decriminalisation of sex work for years. And what is the difference between decriminalising and legalising?
Lady Charlotte Rose
So, yeah, legalising, a prime example of that is the Red Light District in Amsterdam. So it's perfectly legal to work. So number one, you have to register yourself with the government, so you have to pay for a licence fee. And then then you go and work in licenced premises. Now the problem with that is number one, you've lost your anonymity. So in the future, if you want to work in government or any form of official job, if you've been registered as a sex worker, then you're not going to get hired. The second problem with that is that only people that can afford to licence their premise are the places that you can work. So they charge massive amounts of money. So when you see the Red Light District, and you see a sex worker who offers 50 euros for about five or 10 minutes, they're actually probably getting about 10 euros out of that money. So that's the legalised system of it. Now, the decriminalised system of it, it still means that anything that's formed under trafficking or coercion is still against the law. This is a problem, that people automatically think, oh my God, well, you're going to have a you can have a brothel, that means that someone's going to be a pimp. No, what, what the idea is, and what they've tried to look out, for example, is to be able to allow sex workers to work together for safety, because that's what it's all about, at the end of the day. It's not about the activity, it's about the safety of another human being. I know that Labour tried to look at SOOBs, which stands for small owner, small operated ownershiped brothels, which is to allow, for example, up to four sex workers to work together, that's managed between the four of them into one premise. And if we could get something like that, that would be fantastic. It really, really would. I mean, I, me and my friend, we used to travel around the country, and we would work together for safety, we'd offer two sessions. And the worst thing was, is it because of the way that the law stands, when we got robbed, we couldn't, we couldn't go to the police because immediately we're penalised, we'd be arrested for brothel keeping, and, and the other people wouldn't, wouldn't even get locked in. So, you know, the fact that people that the fact that clients know this, also jeopardises the safety of sex workers as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true, because then they feel like they have more power in that situation and they could get away with mistreating somebody.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah. And this is why we don't want it to be criminalised. Because, you know, by by doing that and putting the onus on to the person purchasing, number one, all the good quality of clients that are scared of being criminalised, will go. So you're left with people who are happy to break the law, so then control goes to the buyer. So because the competition will increase because there's not as many buyers, the control goes back to them, they can haggle rates, they can haggle safety standards, they can also haggle sexual safety standards. So for somebody, for example, who would normally have sex protected with a condom, they may feel, they may be badgered by a client if they're desperate for money to feed their family, to remove that condom. And that's, that's where the problem comes in. Because you've got these groups of women that are thinking they're trying to protect women from violence, when actually they're creating more violence by thinking, by thinking that they know best when they really, really don't. If you want to know what's best for a sex worker, listen to a sex worker. Don't automatically think that you think you know, because you're a woman, being a woman means absolutely nothing in this fact. If you've got no experience of being a sex worker, you shouldn't even be speaking about the subject.
Hannah Witton
And the, that narrative is so prevalent, because even like, when I was growing up, and when I was in my teens and 20s, and you just like, would hear about sex work, and you'd hear about prostitution and some of the political viewpoints around it, especially like coming from feminist spaces. A lot of it was like, it's, it's degrading to women, and, you know, like, we need to save women from sex work. Like that is that is, what it seemed to me was the kind of like dominating narrative, rather than this narrative that actually comes from sex workers.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Well, sex, sex work, for me was very, it was incredibly empowering for me, it really was, it was a moving journey that helped me progress to be the person I am today. And I think that I'm awesome. And I do
Hannah Witton
I love that
Lady Charlotte Rose
And I blame, I blame sex work for that, for that awesomeness. The narrative has always been very two dimensional, it's always been very, either very tragic, or very glamorous, you know, though she's, she's, she's on the streets, she's a she's a drug addict, or, oh, gosh, she's in the most expensive penthouse. And you know, there's never really any middle ground when it comes to prostitution. I think that, and also, this is one of the things that I've experienced whilst doing many different interviews is that, you know, when I say that I really enjoy doing my work, they would write down in the magazine and papers or she claims to enjoy. Well, I don't claim that I enjoy it, I enjoy it. I'm a multi award winning sex worker, I love what I do, I love helping people, and it you know, it's people can't normalise the fact that sex. This is the problem is that when, when people, when people think that sex should be behind closed doors, it may be, that may be somebody's personal preference. But normalising sex work, as work is something that's, you know, it's either it's either badgered against through a moralistic view, or a religious view, it can't be just seen as, not necessarily a commodity, but a necessity because sex is a wonderful thing, whether you connect on a romantic level, or you connect on a sexual energised level, or whether you just fuck, it's, it's amazing. And it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be hidden behind closed doors, it should be spoke about and, you know, my children are 20/21 now. When they, when they wanted to lose their virginity, they came to me for advice, my kids knew exactly what I did for a living, from the age of 11 and 12. I've, I've you know,
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow, yeah
Lady Charlotte Rose
And the fact that, you know, my daughter comes to me for sex advice, my son comes to me for sex advice, gosh even my mom and family come to me for advice. And, you know, to be able to, it's taken me a long time to be able to create a level of safety within that, within our bubble, to be able to discuss that. But I do think times are changing, I'm hoping that people who are listening to this will have an open view, because you've also got to remember that I'm not here to change your, change your, I'm not here to change your opinion. I'm only here to give you advice of what I know, and my experiences, about how their opinion can hurt others. And you know, and if this can make somebody think about, you know, maybe researching a little bit more, finding out some more information about themselves before they make an opinion, then that's my job done.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And there's all sorts of different reasons why people go into sex work as well. Yeah. And one term that I've heard through researching and looking more into it is survival sex work
Lady Charlotte Rose
There is survival sex work. I see th, there's so many different terms that that are received, are well received, and not well received in the industry. And, you know, the the easiest way that I can put it down to is because I don't like the term survive, I don't I understand people who who want that, that that word, then you know that everybody's entitled to their own opinion when what they want to say,
Hannah Witton
I mean, there's all sorts of different
Lady Charlotte Rose
Oh gosh. The way I, the way I break it down, so because I've spoken to so many people in the general public that they like, still don't quite understand what you mean. And my mom has always said to me that if, you've got to break it down in layman's terms, because if if people can't understand the basic principles, then they're never going to be able to find out, understand what you mean, and what you want done. This is the simplest way that I could describe it. You've got people who want to, and you have people who have to
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Lady Charlotte Rose
And people who have to, we need to be looking at better ways to be able to financially support them and give them exit strategies, and any term of mental mental health help, or drug abuse help, anything like that.
Hannah Witton
And by people who have to, people who have to, you don't mean people who are trafficked, it's still
Lady Charlotte Rose
Oh, no, see this is it. So the consent is always there in that sense. Because if you have to, you still have to consent to it. But having to having to consent and wanting to consent is, is two very different things, because you're having to do it out of desperation, out of needing for food out, of needing for money, out of needing for substance abuse. So, you know, for people who have to, we've got, we've got to look at ways to be able to support them with exit strategies, mental health, and any form of, of substance abuse help, financial support, all of that sort of thing. And then the people who want to, we need to be looking at how to be able to advertise, how to teach people the correct advertising models, how to be able to market themselves, how many how to be able to turn this into a professional, a personal business for them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Lady Charlotte Rose
Sex work, for me was a very personalised professional business. You know, 80% of my time was admin. You know, I was doing reception work, I was answering phones, I was answering messages, voice messages, emails, text messages, adult work messages, all the different platforms. So by the time you're actually, you've actually finished your days, you're well, I would start at about 8am, and I'd finish about 2am. And I'd be looking at about 100 messages on each platform that I've got to reply to each one whilst answering the phones. And you know, you've got to multitask. And I'll be asking them where they got my details from so I know exactly where my marketing is coming from which adverts are working, which is not. Then I'd also look at whether or not I'm going to go to a hotel, where I'm going to go to hire a b&b, am I going to do a tour? Looking at my cost base price? How much it's going to cost me to go there? What's my basic rates? What's the rates of the girls in the area? So there's loads of different things to look at. And that's, that's the way that I professionalised my brand, to be able to earn money, and I earned a lot of money, not that I've got much to show for it now. But I, I earned a lot of money. And, and that's great. It was great. I enjoyed the people I met, I enjoyed what I did, and the money was fantastic. But for people who have to do it, because there's no other choice, we need to be giving them the additional support and not, and that's where the barrier comes in of separation. The people who have to, we need to help them, the people who want to, let them get on with it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and also helps them be able to do it more safely, basically
Lady Charlotte Rose
Oh absolutely, definitely. We we've got some fantastic, I'm gonna plug now, we've got fantastic businesses out there. We've got Ugly Mugs. Ugly Mugs is a it's a free app that you can sign up to to report time wasters, abusive clients, you've also got Client Eye app, which does a very similar thing. And they have a phone checker on them. So if somebody calls, you can check their phone number on there to see if they've been given any harassment. You've also you've got an app called Smoochie for sex workers that has a safety system built in within it, because everything's a lot of things are going digital now. And yeah, you know, so back in my day, when I first started, my system was literally, I found out where, if I was going, if they were coming to see me, I would advise I would stay on, I would say to them, as soon as you park up, give me a call and I'll guide you in. So as soon as they parked up, I would guide them to a space where I could see from my window, I'd look at my window and wave to them, and then they'd know where to come to and I'd guide him down the door. And then and then I'd do my safety checks from there. If I was going to a hotel, I would ask for the hotel number, their room number I would call them back, I do my checks like that. We had our old fashioned ways, whereas now everything's going online and especially with lockdown. You know the masses amounts of people that, who are unable to do face to face meets, are doing more webcam, they're doing more Only Fans, they're doing more content. My concern of what I'm I'm worried about seeing in the future, is this content instead of having physical meets, because I've never posed nude, I've never even when my partner was alive, I never even let him take a photo of me nude because as soon as that one photo is out, it's out. And this is my concern, that revenge porn might, we might see an increase in revenge porn. We might see, because Pornhub is the most destructive website that was ever built. What it does as much as what it's great to watch, you're not actually realising what's going on behind the scenes. The majority of content is being stolen from from content creators, who spend money and time editing that footage to be able to get on their platform for people to purchase to earn a living. So Pornhub, then steal it and offer it out for free.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lady Charlotte Rose
So, you know, and this is and that's my, that's my scare that I think is going to be happening. We're probably gonna see this, from the first lockdown and now this lockdown, I think we're gonna see more online issues, probably about February of next year, people are going to start seeing, or people are going to be going, ohh, well, I'll give you an example. In the news. The other week, there was a young woman who was a engineer, she was just about to get the top job in the company for engineering. And one of, and two of her her work colleagues was taking the piss out of her for having an Only Fans page, and rather than them being dealt with for mocking her and shaming her for having an Only Fans page, she was fired. Just think you know, it. And that's that's the sort of thing that scares me, is that people are being furloughed, and they're not getting those opportunities to do overtime, or them opportunities to do this. And, you know, their money has gone down to next to nothing, it is going to drive more people online to be able to do these content, web apps.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and it's a whole new thing to navigate. And we don't fully know what the outcomes and what the consequences are going to be. And you're right, like lockdown has definitely increased the amount of people who are creating, like online, like sex content and stuff.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, my biggest concern is Only Fans because all the people from Only Fans are bastards, because what they're trying to do is they're, right, they've created this platform for sex workers. And then they got a few big stars that signed up opening vanilla accounts, and now they're shutting down sex worker accounts. And, you know, it's like the Bella, or is it bello?
Hannah Witton
oh Bella Thorne?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Bella Thorne?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, unless there's another one.
Lady Charlotte Rose
I'm probably mixing two players together. Do you know it's just, it winds me up that when somebody is, when something is created on the backbone of sex work, to be able to achieve a level of priority within a sex workers life, to be then taken away by mainstream vanilla media is sickening. It's absolutely sickening. It's like
Hannah Witton
It just keeps happening as well, like
Lady Charlotte Rose
Sex work's stood on. We stand on the backbone of sex workers to build something that's promising for security, safety, and provide, and to provide for sex workers. And then they remove it just because it hits mainstream, and that's sickening to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you see it all the time with like Instagram policies, and also like Tumblr, removing not safe for work content. It just keeps on narrowing the safe spaces online and post content and earn a living?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Well, this is it. I mean, this is why, you know, I've had I've got my radio show, I've had my radio show for five years now. And, you know, I've had some fantastic companies that have supported the, supported the show. And for the, for all, coming up to almost two years now, I've had fanbates.com, who has supported my show, and they are, they are working on a new, new platform they're in, they're just about to launch version 2.0. And, and this is purely sex work, it's built for sex workers, from sex workers. And it will never ever remove sex worker accounts. And it's just so sad that you know, sex workers build these things. Bbut this is the fan bates, that will never ever happen. I've never put my name to something that would that would do that. And and yeah, it's yeah, really challenging. It is challenging, what sex workers have to go through on a day to day basis because of what somebody else's opinion is. We should be allowed to, so Human Rights Act states that we're allowed to earn, we're allowed we're we are, we have a right to earn a living, we have a right to privacy, and we have a right to safety. And people who use their moral, religious opinions to degrade and dehumanise sex workers. They need to be taken around the back and slapped with a wet fish. They really do. It's, you know, if you cannot see another human being as a human being and respect them for who they are, and who the hell do you think you are?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, totally. I have some question from Instagram followers
Lady Charlotte Rose
Come on Instagram followers ,fire away
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's some good ones. So someone actually asked, and this is kind of like COVID related, lockdown related. They said, I live with a sex worker who's working over lockdown and we've never really spoke about her job. I'm chill with it, but not over lockdown. How do I ask her to stop, without sounding judging of her job?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Okay, if she's seen face, number one, she shouldn't be seeing face to face people, we need to, we need to make that, that that's understandable. Now, the fact that she is seeing face to face people, we can talk about that. There are various different ways that she can do that safely. Ensuring that they sterilise their hands before they come through the door, make sure that they're wearing a mask, then that I mean, my normal procedure would be to always put my client in the shower prior, prior to coming to see me, it's a difficult one, when you've got a shared facility. She needs to be looking at the routes coming in and out of the flat, does it go past her flatmates door? If it does, then she really, nobody should be entering that. If her room is closest to the door, then she can make a kind of quarantine area that when her friend is at home, that she stays behind that door or behind that screen while she's working. There's got to be a give and take in number one, the friend needs to be, needs to probably, need to understand that she probably is her only income right now and without, and if she gives that up, how is she going to be able to afford to pay rent? Yeah, she is a lot of sex workers are doing this, they are putting their own safety at risk because they aren't eligible for, I mean, there are many sex workers out there that don't, that aren't paying taxes for sex work, they're doing it as a benefit top up, or they're doing it just to stay off the system. And you know, so everybody has their reasons. And I just think, you there's I can't answer this on one simple, straight way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it involved in the conversation and setting boundaries.
Lady Charlotte Rose
It really does. But you've also got to understand the reasonings behind that before you try and set boundaries. Because if there is an opportunity for her to have financial support from somewhere, then in fact, there is. If she gets in touch with if she has a conversation and brings up the English Collective of Prostitutes, they do have an emergency fund for sex workers right now.
Hannah Witton
Oh amazing, that's good to know.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, if you go onto the website, if you just put in English Collective of Prostitutes, there should be some financial help. And if that can help and then stop the situation, that's brilliant. But if if there isn't any opportunity to do that, then there needs to be some some way, I mean, you know it does she drive? Is she able to go out to some spots? Is there anybody that can go with her as a buddy in a separate car, there's, there's, you know, and get this person just to send me a message so I can get some further details, because this could be a lengthy conversation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, lovely. Thank you for that. And so this one's a bit of a hypothetical one,
Lady Charlotte Rose
Oh yes, I like these
Hannah Witton
Do you believe that sex work would exist in a world where gender equality is ensured?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yes, sex work will always exist, sex work was always here, it will never go away. It makes no difference. What is, what is going on with the world, pleasure is the most wonderful, beautiful thing ever. We will always need it, we will always want it and providing that want is there, there will always be a need.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I just think that if we did live in like, a perfect gender equality, like utopia that's also free of all other sorts of discrimination and oppression, then, yeah, I agree that it would still exist, but it would be safe. It would be that the only people doing it are in that category. Like you said of the people who want to be doing it.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, I mean, I've purchased sex, I've I've I've hired a guy. Because I you know, I was I was going, I was travelling. I felt horny. I could have done it myself. But I just thought, you know, I'd rather have someone else do it for me. And so I you know, it swings and roundabouts, it's swings and roundabouts. Next question, I'm liking that
Hannah Witton
Well actually, I just had a follow up question on that. Do you think there's a stigma around women paying for sex?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, I mean, there's there's a stigma around sex in general. It doesn't matter whether it's safe. It could be talking about virginity. It could be about you know, STIs, is is there's all sorts of stigma when it comes to sex in general. Yeah, paying for sex. Yeah. Because firstly, women will go, why pay for sex, you can go out and get it for free. So can a man if they really want to, you know, it makes the ones I want. I'm the reason why I did it. I wanted somebody professional. I wanted to be able to pick the person. I didn't wanna have to waste money in getting them to drink. I didn't want waste money, waste time that they can't get an erection because they've drunk too much. And two, I may not want to be in their company once I've finished, you know, the fact that I can hire a professional, he knows what he's doing, he can sort me out, and then I can wave goodbye on a smiley note. And that to me was perfect.
Hannah Witton
That's great logic. I never thought of it like that before. But it makes perfect sense in my head now. I think this one is a good one to end on, especially because I really enjoyed what you said before about treating it like a business.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Somebody asked how do you becomes a sex worker? How do you set rates, find clients, all of that good stuff?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Well, okay, let's start. So if you are in the area of Sheffield, for example, what you need to be doing is, I would always advise not to really work from home, you need to go out at least, probably, a minimum of an eight mile radius, give yourself at least eight to ten miles if you need to.
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay,
Lady Charlotte Rose
so from there, what I then do is I look
Hannah Witton
So that, so that eight mile radius is where you will work and the clients that you'll see will be there, rather than like around where you live,
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, you don't really want you've got more chance of seeing neighbours and things like that, you know, you don't want that I mean, ten, eight to ten miles means you can still get home if there's an emergency, if you've got children. But you're further enough away that you're not going to bump into many clients. You know, because I've worked from, I've worked very close to home, I've worked a mile away from where I've lived, and, you know, I would always ask them, where are you from? And they'd say, Well, I'm, I'm either from the neighbouring town, or I'm from here. And I say the reason why I ask is if I see you out in the street, please don't consider me rude by not acknowledging you. It's just, this is a business and clients are always good with that. So it's just about, it's about avoiding a awkward situation for you in the long term. So from there, I would then go, I would then probably go on to adult work or look in the local papers or look online at Viva Street, and see what is around that postcode of where you're going to work and see what sort of services they're offering. If they're offering, what you want to do is you want to try and find something that's unique to you. That, you know there's lots of blonde, there's lots of blonde, young, younger, what's the category called? Well, yeah, there's loads of MILFs, there's loads of GILFs, there's loads of school girls, there's loads of there's, there's loads of Dom's. If you can find something that's really unique to you. And I'll give an example, there's a there's a woman in, I think she's in Japan, and she charges a subscription to her YouTube channel. I think it's YouTube, where she puts makeup on her face, and then she smashes her face into loaves of bread.
Hannah Witton
Yes, I've seen I mean, that's yeah, I've seen those videos, not behind a paywall, but yeah,
Lady Charlotte Rose
And she makes 1000s and 1000s, because it's unique to her. So you want to find something that you do, whether it be splashing, whether it be cream pies, whether it be toe jobs, whether it's pegging, whether it's something like that, you know, you can offer all the services, but you always need to make one that's just beautifully unique to us something you specialise in, and then what you, all the people around you, you want to look at their rate, see how much they charge and for what time. So you found something quite clever. A few years back, is it, I used to, I used to charge £160 for an hour and I tried that for like 10 years of my life. Because my, I specialise in seeing people with disabilities. And I didn't want to increase that amount of money because I wanted them to be able to afford the time with me. And you know, I'd spend two to three hours with with with each of them. And I don't want, I don't I'm value, I like the idea that I'm value for money, but I'm also doing something that's rewarding to me as well, and being paid handsomely for it. Yes. So I found that there was these, there was a group of girls, I found this very, very clever, actually that instead of charging 160 pounds, they would charge £155 for example. And the reason why they put a five on it, is it. It's 50/50 chance, number one whether the guy actually has a fiver so he'd be tipping you'd five pounds or two, you'd always refuse the fact that you don't have five pound change. So you're always going to get an extra fiver, and I thought that was that was ingenious. That was ingenious because the majority of men that get the exact money was very rare. Very rare. So there was an extra fiver, but to the clients, they were getting five pound off. Because, because men are cheap. Men are cheap. They really are.
Hannah Witton
There we go, I love that advice.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Then you need to get your tools, you need to make sure that you have a toolkit, you've got your lubes, you've got your condoms, you've got your flavoured condoms, you've got your, your period sponges, you've got your red condoms for when you're on, with the parent sponges, you've got your various natural oils, you've got sheets, you've got all sorts of towels, you've got all the things that you need, his and hers robes and stuff. And then and then you need to put your platform up. And Adult Work is probably the easiest place to start. And the good thing about it is, is that you have a review system, so you can see the reviews of the people that's getting in contact with you. And you don't even need necessarily need a phone with that. But I do recommend getting a burner phone. It to start, it would probably cost you a tenner, it probably cost you 30 quid to start sex work, tenner of for all your tools, a tenner for an extra, an extra, two extra large towels, and a tenner for a burn away phone, and then some time it takes to set up your profile. And then you just have to sit and wait. So it doesn't cost much to start. But if anybody does need any advice, I made an ebook on how to be a professional escort. So if anybody's looking for that, just just if they email you, Hannah, and then let me know,
Hannah Witton
If you have the link to where people can purchase that we can pop it in the show notes of this episode.
Lady Charlotte Rose
I don't I don't, I don't charge for it.
Hannah Witton
Okay
Lady Charlotte Rose
I'm happy to just send it, as long as I can email it to somebody direct, because I like to ensure that number one, I'm not encouraging anybody. You know, I, it is weird, because despite the fact that I love sex work, I always try and put people off sex work. Because it's, you've got to be a very strong person to be able to do sex work. It's not just physically challenging, but it's also mentally challenging, the rewards are great, but you've got to slog at it and you've got to be professional all the time. And, you know, it's, it's a not so nice world out there. And, you know, and so if anybody wants it, I'd prefer for me to email it to you. And that way I can send you some, I can talk to you at the same time.
Hannah Witton
Wonderful.
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, no worries. No worries.
Hannah Witton
Do you have any more tips?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Do you know what, the only tip that I would give to anybody that's listening to this is live life. My partner was killed last year on a tragic motorbike collision and my outlook on life has changed drastically. I'm currently living in a motorhome touring around the UK, visiting and filming pubs, because this is what I love to do. And, you know, I've got my radio show, obviously, that I still talk about sex work and promote sex work and promote sex work advocacy. And I'm I'm genuinely, genuinely truly deeply happy. I'm lonely, of course. But I'm massively happy. And I think that life is so short to not do what you want to do. If you are unhappy in any way. You've got to find that key to be able to help yourself because you cannot, you're not living your life, if you're living unhappy. You're really, really not.
Hannah Witton
I think that's a really great note to end it on. Thank you so, so much. Where can people find you online and find your radio show?
Lady Charlotte Rose
Yeah, I mean, if people want it on Instagram I'm @1stLadyOfSex. I do have two Twitter accounts. I've got my blue tick one, which is @_Charlie_Rose, which is kind of like a personal Twitter. And then of course, I've got my political one, which is @1stLadyOfSex and they're all the the number first lady of sex, but the radio show is on, if you go to @RoseTalksSex on Twitter, you'll always be able to get the pinned tweet, which will click you through to Periscope and then you can watch the shows. I do upload them to spreaker but I'm really behind. I've got 20/30 shows I've got to upload and living in a van, my signal is not great.
Hannah Witton
So you got to catch them live. You normally do them Monday evenings, right
Lady Charlotte Rose
Monday, eight o'clock, eight till 10. If I do a special show, it will be eight till 11. And yeah, it's it's a fact, I've always got guests on industry guests, whether it be toymakers, whether it be porn stars, whether it be sex workers, whether it would be people in the trans community, authors, there's such an array and eclectic bunch of folks. It's fantastic. It's a great show.
Hannah Witton
Brilliant. Thank you so much. And thank you all so much for listening. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next one. Episode by
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast.