Alcohol and Sobriety with Sex and Dating with Millie Gooch | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, dear listener, welcome back to Doing It. I hope you had a good bank holiday weekend, Easter break chocolate feast, whatever applies to you. Unrelated to this podcast but in other news, this weekend marks my 10 year anniversary of making YouTube videos. So there is a whole bunch of celebratory content over on both of my YouTube channels and I'll be doing a Twitch stream on Saturday, just playing some Jackbox games and just having a bit of a party with everyone, playing some games. Should be fun! To celebrate! Because whoa, 10 years I've been in this content creation biz. So thank you all for being part of this wild ride.
And so this week we are talking about alcohol and sobriety when it comes to sex, dating and relationships, with the founder of Sober Girl Society, Millie Gooch. Now, I don't know if it's an age thing for me or a lockdown thing for me or life stage thing, but I drink way less, like once every few months, at the moment than I used to. And I've talked about my single years online, but when I look back on that time, alcohol was pretty much always present in my shenanigans. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I never really had any issues. But what it made me realise was just how normalised and entwined drinking and dating, drinking and sex are. And so even if you do have a healthy relationship with alcohol, it's still important, I think, to question and think a bit deeper about things that are normalised or we would just say, "but that's just how it is" about them.
In this episode, Millie and I talk about why Millie went sober, forgiving yourself for past drunken mistakes, drunk cheating, confidence, sober sex and sober dating, how to handle breakups and heartbreak without alcohol, and how to support a partner who doesn't drink. I really loved this chat. It's a topic where unless it's something you maybe have a problem with, or you know someone who does, you don't really think about it that much because so often alcohol is our default reflex for things like dating. So hopefully this episode will help us all think outside the box a little, whether sober or not. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, @doingitpodcast. And as always, if you like this podcast, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes. It really really helps us out. And without further ado, here is the wonderful Millie Gooch.
Hannah Witton
Millie, welcome to the podcast! How are you?
Millie Gooch
I'm good, thank you so much for having me. How are you?
Hannah Witton
I'm alright. On the day that we're recording this, listeners, it's that hot day in - at the end of March.
Millie Gooch
I'm boiling like that is the only thing.
Hannah Witton
Are you?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I've got a long-sleeved t-shirt.
Hannah Witton
When we're done recording I'm planning on like going outside and like soaking it in and enjoying the weather. But that's very British of us to start by talking about the weather. But what we're actually here to talk about is alcohol, sobriety, sex and relationships and all of that stuff.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, all the good stuff.
Hannah Witton
Do you want to like do a quick intro to yourself and I guess Sober Girl Society as well, and like your story with alcohol? That's a big one, but, diving in.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, so I was a - I would say a big party girl, binge drinker. I started drinking when I went to university. I was actually kind of a bit of a latecomer really I would say, in British terms. You know, as well as the weather, we like to get drunk early. So I didn't really end up doing that. I was I was quite into competitive dancing so I used to spend my weekends doing that so I was a latecomer.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow. I started drinking at 14
Millie Gooch
Yeah, see, most of my friends did but I just, I didn't get into it then so I kind of came to a bit late and I'm an August birthday so I'm like the last one in my year to turn whatever age and I literally - I got my A-Level results on on my 18th birthday. And then like three weeks later I was off to university. So I'd gone from being like a no drinker to like a - I worked in a shot bar, I worked in a Vodka Revolutions, and I just became this like three, four night a week binge drinker. So I never learned - not that there is like a sense of a way to drink but I never even learned how to have you know like one or two. It was just all or nothing. And then I kind of left university and I didn't really slow down so I went to work in - had a lot of jobs in fashion. I worked in PR and then I worked in journalism. They're all quite boozy industries and I just -
Hannah Witton
And the free bar!
Millie Gooch
Free bar! I used to work like, one of the first PR companies I worked for, I worked in the fashion department, but they had - they used to look after a lot of booze brands. They would have like free bar Fridays, it was just complete carnage. And you know, I remember like Tuesday nights, we would have like a Tequila Tuesday thing, and we would go out after work. And then I would you know, end up - I'd fall asleep on the train commuting home from London to Kent and end up in like Dover, which is like miles away. It's on my train line.
Hannah Witton
That's one of my worst nightmares, is like falling asleep on public transport and missing my stop.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I mean, I've done it so many times that I was getting like - I mean, some of my Ubers were costing me like £200, which is just - and I was like an assistant at the time so that was like, you know, a week's wages to me, it was ridiculous.
Millie Gooch
But I kind of carried on that way for a while. But then my drinking kind of very steadily started to get slightly worse and kind of - so slowly that I didn't even really notice it. So you know, I was always the one that would take it too far, I was always the one that wanted to stay to the end. But it started having a bit of an effect on my mental health and I started suffering from blackouts. So I would not remember large portions of my night, I would wake up and sometimes not remember how I'd got home or like who I'd spoken to. And I used to get that real beer fear, which I know I've spoken to you and you said that you haven't got, ever, which is I think -
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Hannah Witton
I've never blacked out, yeah.
Millie Gooch
Honestly.
Hannah Witton
I have fuzzier memories, but never like how did I get from A to B?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, so there's like, there's two types of blackout. There's, like fragmentary, which is kind of like, oh I remember speaking to that person but I don't really remember what I said, or there's like en bloc, which is literally like, I've got no recollection of like that hour, those two hours. And I was getting like literally entire parts of my night disappearing. And I would wake up and I would have this like, intense hangover anxiety. But more than that, it was kind of, I was exhibiting a lot of symptoms of depression. And I was always kind of in this like state of- I always call it like, Eeyore, basically, I just, you know, I didn't see any joy in anything except really going out on the weekend and getting shit-faced. And then I would spend the entire weekend hungover, miserable, crying, anxious. I would go to work on Monday, start to feel slightly better again by about Wednesday, Thursday, and then I would just do it all over again and again and again. And I got into this real like Groundhog Day kind of cycle with my drinking. And then in February 2018, I went on a night out, had an almighty hangover the next day, I don't really remember a lot of my night, and I just thought, I can't - I can't keep doing this. Like I don't - this isn't a life anymore, it's just me going out and getting plastered every single weekend, being hungover -
Hannah Witton
Was there anything specific that like, triggered that?
Millie Gooch
No. Well, about a few weeks ago before this had happened, weirdly - I always think this was kind of fate - I was on the tube to work and I picked up a copy of Stylist magazine and there was an interview in there from Catherine Gray, who'd just written a book called The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober. So when I - on that morning, when I was like, that's it, like I've had enough, it wasn't like a moment then. That was kind of just like, I'm done. I'm tired. Like it was so -
Hannah Witton
Was it like in your mind? Yeah.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I think maybe, subconsciously so that day -
Hannah Witton
It had planted.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, the seed was there. That day, I downloaded that audiobook and that then really spurred on that decision. I think, you know, had I not then downloaded that audiobook, it probably could have been another time with me just saying, I'm never drinking again. But that is what kind of started the journey. And then yeah, it got to about seven months I'd been not drinking and I - there was loads of like amazing communities on Instagram for like people who you know, had like a shared interest, whether that was like sex body - like sex positivity, or like body love, like, there were so many different sort of like groups and societies. And I just couldn't find anything for like young women who wanted to talk about like, not drinking or being sober. So I was like, well, I know how to use Instagram, I'm gonna set up a society. And I thought, you know, maybe there'll be like 10 of us. We can all chat about sober dating and non alcoholic wine. And now like 128,000 people later and I'm like, oh, this has snowballed quite significantly!
Hannah Witton
It's incredible. And is it mostly, like young women? Like, like I guess people in their 20s?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I mean, it's a complete mix. I would say like we kind of range from probably about 20 to about 40 really is kind of like our big kind of age range, I would say, but I think because of the content I pump out is quite me, it attracts a lot of people my kind of age like the references we use and stuff.
Hannah Witton
I just ask us I think people get suspicious of like young people who don't drink.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, yeah, well, I was 26 when I stopped drinking and people were like, I just don't get it, like I can't - they couldn't wrap their head around it. Now I'm like a bit older - so I'll be 30 this year, a lot of my friends have started having kids now. So they kind of really get it now, but at 26 they did not get it at all.
Hannah Witton
How was that navigating friendships in those like first few months of being sober?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, it is hard because especially like - so my ultimate best friends are like my uni best friends. So our friendship, I said, was like built on drinking. That's how we became friends, on like a freshers' week pub crawl. But then to suddenly kind of take that completely off the table is a bit of a weird transition. But I do say I was very lucky. They were very supportive. I mean, initially, they were very ambivalent, but I say that - I think because I used to say "I'm never drinking again" all the time, I just think they didn't believe me. So it's not that they weren't supportive. But I think I said, I'm never drinking again. And they just said, "Yeah, alright, okay, we'll see."
Hannah Witton
Did you continue going on nights out but were sober or did you kind of like stop doing that altogether?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, see, I don't recommend this for everyone but I was really stubborn. And my friend said, like, "Oh, you're not going to be fun without alcohol." And I thought, well, I'm gonna prove you wrong. [Inaudible] So like literally my first week of sobriety, I went out for my friend's birthday in Shoreditch and even when some of them started dropping off, I was like, no, I'm staying till the end, I'm proving to you that I'm fun. And for me, that was probably the best thing that I could have done, looking back now, because I like ripped the band-aid off and just threw myself into it. It got like - I think there can be a tendency to overthink it, especially like a lot of people that have gotten sober during the pandemic have said, like, "I'm so worried about now the world reopening," because they've delayed that like going out and socialising without our alcohol, and that now they're really worried about it, where I just pulled the band-aid off and was like, fuck it. I'm gonna into the world and that's it.
Hannah Witton
I hadn't thought about that. Because also like, if you've never navigated those spaces, sober before, you actually don't know, like, how much energy Am I going to have? What mood am I going to be in? Am I going to enjoy conversations with friends, acquaintances, strangers? Like yeah, how do you even figure out like if you're going to enjoy it?
Millie Gooch
Yeah. And it is completely trial and error. Like when I was drinking, I used to go to a lot of - loads of my friends were like into garage and drum and base. So I used to a lot of garage and drum and bass festivals. And then I remember I went to my first one sober, and I was like, okay, so it turns out, I don't like garage or drum and bass. And it took like me not drinking to figure that out.
Hannah Witton
Are there any other things that you discovered that either that you don't actually like? Or that you do like, from being sober?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I think like - I still like clubbing but I have to be very particular about like, what - and I say clubbing because that's like a really old phrase, I think, showing my age.
Hannah Witton
Going out dancing.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, going out dancing. So I would say like, there has to be a certain type of music if I go to a club. I used to be able to go to like Fabric until 6am. Like, that just wouldn't happen now. I've gotta go where there's like music, with lyrics. There's gotta be somewhere I can at least have a sit down because, you know, when you are wearing heels and you're not drinking, you do notice that your feet hurt. You can't just you know, like drink through it.
Hannah Witton
That's so true. I think the last club night that I went to was one called Swiftogeddon, where they played Taylor Swift songs all night. And granted, I was drunk, I was drinking for it, but it is one that I'm like, oh, I could do that sober and still stay to the end. I know I could.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, that sounds right up my street. Like any kind of like cheesy or like 80s or anything like that I could do. I think you do just figure out like what you like. And I always say the only difference now not drinking is like fun parties are always like fun, whether you're sober or not. But if you're drinking, you can make a terrible party fun. And that's the only difference. So you just work out what ones are bad and what's good. If I go to a party, sometimes it's amazing and I have a great time. Sometimes I go and it's crap. And now I know that's the party and not the alcohol.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so now all of your friends know that if you had a bad night, or if you'd left early, it's because their party that they hosted was shit.
Millie Gooch
Yeah. It's like they have to impress me. I'm like, come on, guys, what have you got for me?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you've actually raised the standards.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, exactly. People have to make their parties better now because of me.
Hannah Witton
I love that. I love that framing. That's great. We should all try and make our parties fun for people who don't drink, I think. That should be the standard.
Hannah Witton
Okay, I want to get on to obviously like sex and relationship stuff now. What I guess was like your biggest surprise when it came to things like dating or things like sex? Or like, what for you was like the biggest hurdle when it came to doing all of those things but sober?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I think all of them like felt like a hurdle initially, but then were surprisingly great. I think that was probably the surprise, that I thought that they were going to be hurdles, and they weren't. So with like dating, I thought it would be really like hard to find someone who was on board with it and actually, I found that most people were really responsive to it. And that doesn't mean to say there was no one who said, "Oh, that's really boring," but I actually found that more people thought it was interesting and cool than they did boring, which was a surprise in itself.
Hannah Witton
Makes you unique.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, exactly. And I think as well, people were quite, like, in awe that someone could do something like that on a date, like go sober, because I think it's so common now that all dates revolve around drinking. When you actually say, yeah, I'll come and I'll do that without drinking, people are like, wow, that's like, quite attractive, that they've got the confidence to do that and to put themselves out there and not worry that they're not gonna have to drink through it.
Hannah Witton
There's so many things that are a given that we just like, assume as what is done, like first date: bar, drinks. Like that's something that is just like, default. And yeah, when you kind of like, say, oh, I don't drink, then it can, like you said, be like, oh, that's interesting. Or it could also like, maybe give that person permission to be like, actually, what do I want to do?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, exactly. And I found that not just with dating, but with like, friends, is that because that is like an assumption that, oh, you will drink, people were actually quite relieved when they realised they didn't have to do that. So with my friends now, they say I really like going for dinner with you because I know that I'm going to be home by nine o'clock. And I found that with dates as well when I said, oh, I'm not drinking, they'd be like, oh, great, I needed a night off. So sometimes people are actually quite relieved.
Hannah Witton
I like that. I do like that a lot. So sober sex, right? How - I feel like people use alcohol - I mean, this for dating and sex - they use it as a crux a lot of the time to kind of give them that boost of confidence or that Dutch courage, and I guess, like, what have you found in sobriety that gives you that same confidence?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I always say it's really like a time thing really. Everyone wants that kind of like instant confidence boost, like, oh, what do you use instead of alcohol. And there are like some good things I would recommend for dating. So like, I always say, getting yourself in a really good headspace. When I was drinking, I used to, you know, like, wait until the last minute to pick my outfit and then I used to get really stressed and flustered and then I'd say, I'll just have a glass of wine and I'll feel better. So there's like loads of little things that you can do like, you know, musical motivation. Get yourself a good playlist, make sure you do some like exercise before to let shake any nervous energy. But in terms of confidence, I just found - and this isn't just with dating, this is like with all stuff - is that I was relying so much on alcohol for my confidence that I didn't build any of my own. I would just think I need a confidence boost so I'm going to grab a drink. But then once you stop drinking, that confidence is gone because you've got it out of a bottle. It'ss literally like a magic potion of confidence that you drink. But that doesn't stay with you. So when I started doing really scary things, like going on sober dates, I would do it and then afterwards, I go, oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be, I could do again.
Hannah Witton
You're like laying the bricks in your confidence foundation.
Millie Gooch
100%. I love that analogy, I'm gonna use it. I'm gonna write that down, let me make a note of it. But it's true. You build it up, like innately within you and then it kind of starts to stay with you. Because then once you've done, you know, like date number 10, you're like, well, this is easy now, I've done 10 of them. And I know that all 10 you know, some were alright, some weren't great, but I've survived them, I've got through them all, and here I am doing date 11. So I think it's not like an instant thing. It's like a thing that builds over time. But it's like, with anything, like doing your first sober hen-do or your first sober wedding, once you've done them - they're all scary at first, they're all terrifying at first, and you can't lie and pretend that they're not. But then once you've done them, the next one is easier. And the next one after that is easier and easier. And it just keeps going.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I so agree with that. Because this is something that I say all the time about confidence in general is that it is just practice, like, there isn't necessarily like exercises or mantras that you can do and then like the next day, you'll wake up and you're like, I am now a confident person. Like, it's almost like actually confidence isn't necessarily a personality trait. It's - it can be like dependent on different situations or different contexts. But it is, like you said, it's that experience of being like, even if this is going to be scary, it's going to be okay.
Millie Gooch
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And sometimes it does take a certain mindset to be able to go into things like that, or it just takes practice of being like, I've done something similar before and it was fine.
Millie Gooch
Yeah. 100%. I think it's a skill. Like you said, I don't necessarily think it's a personality trait. I mean, some people are naturally more confident but I don't know whether that comes from childhood or what. But I think it is a skill that you have to learn, especially that confidence in certain situation is something that you just keep building upon and learning how to do and then it's like, you've got this library of experiences in your brain that says, oh, yeah, you did that before, d'you remember? And you know, you were fine, you didn't die, it's great, like, let's go. So that's what I kind of found is I built this like natural confidence really.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Have you found that sex is better sober? Because I feel like this is always up for debate, people are like sober sex versus drunk sex.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, so there's this like, I think it's Shakespeare that said it, which is "it makes him and mars him." It provokes the desire and takes away the performance, which is basically like saying, it makes you mega horny and then you can't perform. It is essentially what that phrase is saying, and I do think that's true. I think a lot of people get very excitable when they've had a drink but it doesn't always live up to the fancy. You know, we see it in films, people in a bar, and they're all like jazzed up, and then they go home, they do it in the middle of a doorway. And like that's never really how it goes.
Hannah Witton
That's never happened. D'you know the bit that they do not show, and I think about this all the time with like past experience I've had, when - especially living in London, where from Central London, maybe where you've met someone, you're drinking, and then to get home, it's like 40 minutes and by the time you've gotten home, you've run out of things to talk about and you both sobered up a little bit.
Millie Gooch
One of you has probably like passed out with a kebab, like one of you's then decided it's not a good idea, like -
Hannah Witton
Who is then ripping each other's clothes off in the doorway? I'm like, well, that's just not my personal experience.
Millie Gooch
No, it doesn't happen. So I would argue that it is, it is better. And this is kind of twofold, because there's like the physical kind of aspect to it in that like orgasms are created in your brain and obviously, alcohol actually affects your brain. So it's kind of shown that your orgasms aren't as strong, it's not as easy to have them. And then as well, you know, alcohol affects the way we self lubricate as well, because it dehydrates us, so it's actually harder to get wetter when you're - when you're not - when you're drinking. So there's like the kind of physical aspect and then there is like the slushy gushy aspect which I was like talking about, which is that when you kind of are drunk, you miss those like nice moments of intimacy as well because you, you numb things, like you numb insecurity and you numb worry, but you also then numb those like nice kind of like tender moments. And, you know, you might be a bit all over the place, and you might be missing stuff. So in terms of like connection with your partner as well, I think it's, it's always better. And then I mean, I wrote a stat in the book, which is that most penile fractures actually come from zealous - not zealous. Is that a word? Overthrusting, that is what a doctor said - from people who are drunk, so less penile fractures, yeah, if you don't drink.
Hannah Witton
I definitely know someone in my first year of uni who that happened to.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, see? Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Maybe two people? I'm trying to think. There was definitely some broken penises amongst my friend group.
Millie Gooch
So less broken penises when you're sober. That - I mean, if that's not a plus, I don't what is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so true. And I think what you were talking about with the connection stuff as well, it's like, it's that vulnerability.
Millie Gooch
Yes.
Hannah Witton
So when you're not, like under the influence, then you kind of like feel that, like that vulnerability. Like just, it just like feels a lot sharper.
Millie Gooch
Yeah. Yeah, it is, everything's a bit more HD. It's not as like fuzzy and blurry. It's, it's like, you know, you feel everything, even your like touch is more sensitive and things like that. So, I mean, I would argue that it's better. Someone might like to disagree with me. But that's, that's my opinion.
Hannah Witton
I think the horniness that alcohol brings is a lot of fun. There's maybe an argument to be made for that.
Millie Gooch
Yeah. Whether it delivers on that fun is another thing but I will take that argument.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so dating and sex, but what about breakups? Because this is something I was thinking about, like, when I've been heartbroken, I go to alcohol - I was about to say, and it makes everything better. But I don't want to put that as a blanket statement. For me, it's what I needed to do at the time. But what are some - what's some advice that maybe you have for someone who is going through a breakup or some heartbreak and they don't drink and they get that like, ugh, I just want to drown my sorrows. What are some other things that you can do that scratch that same itch?
Millie Gooch
I would, I would say like I completely understand your point, because I did exactly the same things. That actually were my kind of I would say drinking took a turn for the worst is when I broke up with my ex boyfriend of six years. And I went through like two or three month periods, just before I went sober, of going out literally every weekend and getting, you know, completely shit faced. And it does help at the time but there's a great analogy that this breakup coach shared with me and she was saying, it's kind of like holding a beach ball underwater, in that it will come back up. So if you push it down, and that's what we tend to do with drinking, we're pushing it down, you're just suppressing your emotions, you're just going out and you're just glazing over it, you're not actually dealing with it. So it probably will help because you're probably like not thinking about anything. But you know, we've all been there, 4am you're crying in a kebab shop, the next day you're feeling really sorry for yourself, you're hungover, you're probably just swiping on Bumble thinking, I'll take anyone at this point, because you're just hungover and needy. And I've been there, so that's, that's not a judgement, but it doesn't go anywhere. So I would say that is the only thing is that you're, you're delaying the process, really. So the quicker you kind of deal with it and sit with your feelings and assess how you're feeling the better.
But there's loads of things I would recommend, you know, I mean, even screaming into a pillow, I think everyone thinks I'm gonna suggest like yoga or do like essential oils, but I'm not, like sometimes you just need to, like get that frustration out as like screaming into a pillow. You know, punching a punching bag. Just - I find physically releasing that emotion is like one of the best things you can do. Sit there watch, you know, every trashy rom com and cry and just get it out, I would say, because it comes out eventually, whether that is 4am in McDonald's over some chicken nuggets, or - you know, it is going to come out at some point. So the quicker you get it out, I find the better.
Hannah Witton
This is gonna sound really weird. But honestly, this is something that I've done, and it feels really good. Which is like, I once just like, pretended to smoke. Just like holding my fingers up as a V as if I'm like holding a cigarette. And I was just like, I remember having a conversation with someone whilst I was just pretending to smoke the entire time, like literally just blowing air and then taking shots. But there's, there's no alcohol in it. And like, like you said, like needing to get that frustration out. Yeah, and I would like pretend to be drunk. So like taking shots that don't have alcohol in it. But there's something really satisfying about the motion of tilting your head back and slamming a glass down. So like, whatever - you know, like piece the bits of it together that like all the bits that like feel really good. Like, I really love, like, especially when you're in that like,ugh, anger, sadness, like all of these like really heightened emotions. I just really love just like necking a bottle.
Millie Gooch
I think - do you know what, it doesn't sound weird at all. Because one of the things that I think I realised as well when I stopped drinking is a lot of it is that like motion and a habit. And you know, it's like the reason vaping is so popular, because a lot of it is the feeling of having something in your hand. So actually still, now when I have a stressful day, I will open a bottle of non alcoholic wine. And actually, sometimes it is that popping of the court, pouring the glass, sitting down, taking five minutes to myself, actually unwinding and going, ohhh. And that's what you realise, that actually it's not necessarily the alcohol. It's just like motion and, and some of that -
Hannah Witton
Routine.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, routine, motion and, and some of it is probably what's been sold back to us, you know, like through the media of this is what's relaxing, and we have taken that on subconsciously. So we're like, ah, this is what I need to do to unwind. So yeah, I totally get that, that a lot of it is in like just the physical routine of it and the habit and feeling like you're still doing it even though you're not having the harmful stuff and you know some of the wines now are like so good that you can actually kind of trick your brain into thinking that you are drinking but the alcohol isn't causing you any problems.
Hannah Witton
Go on, give us your non alcoholic drink recommendation. And what's your order at a bar?
Millie Gooch
Oh, do you know what, it depends how good the bar is because a lot of them are not good. I mean even like -
Hannah Witton
You've just been drinking coke.
Millie Gooch
There's a very popular - I mean we'll all know it very popular bar chain that I went into and I said, oh, can I have this cocktail but just like without the vodka because all the other ingredients are great. And they were like, oh no, sorry, we don't know how to put that through the till so we wouldn't be able to do that for you and I was like, arghh, so annoying.
Hannah Witton
Just give me 50% off!
Millie Gooch
Yeah, just take the vodka out, I don't understand. So like some bars can be very frustrating but I mean there are so many good non alcoholic options now. There's millions of beers - like if you like beer, I would say there's one called So.beer, there's one called Lucky Saint. What else is good? Big Drop Brewing is great for beers. And then kind of like spirits, there's literally one of everything now so if you want a non alcoholic vodka, a non alcoholic, a non alcoholic whiskey, there's an alternative for everything. Amplify's a great brand, Caleño is a great brand, Lyre's is a great brand. There's so many good ones.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. I love all of these recommendations. I'm like tempted to try them.
Millie Gooch
Aw, no, yeah, please do. I mean, I've got stacks here, I've got like a non alcoholic trade line on me. So I'll have to send you some, but -
Hannah Witton
Do you get gifted like non alcoholic drink? Is that your niche?
Millie Gooch
Literally. And the worst part is people think that I probably drink a hell of a lot because my neighbours will hear me come out with all the bottles clattering around. And I think they think, God, she drinks a lot. And I want to be like, no, they're all non alcoholic!
Hannah Witton
You do drink a lot, just hydrate yourself with other stuff.
Millie Gooch
Very well hydrated!
Hannah Witton
We've got some questions from people on Instagram. Somebody asked: how to stop feeling guilty for past drunken mistakes? It's been years.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I mean, this is one of the hardest things that people find. But I would say, you know, shame will only make you drink more, if anything, because you'll be like I don't want to remember that so I'm just going to drink and then actually, you'll end up doing more things that you feel shame about. And you get into this kind of shame cycle. So I mean, the first thing is to not beat yourself up about it at all, like we have all been there. And then the kind of other thing I would say is learning about alcohol. So this is one of the things that really helped me was actually learning how alcohol affects your brain. So, so many of us, you know, kind of do think it's us doing these things when we're out drinking, but the way it affects your brain is that you are kind of literally not you. So alcohol affects your prefrontal cortex, which is like the rational decision making part of your brain so you can't weigh up right or wrong, essentially, when you're drinking. You, you can't think about tomorrow, you can't think about the consequences of your actions, you can't think about any of those things once you've gone past a certain point. So -
Hannah Witton
You have a a teenager's brain?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, basically, they say it's quite like a caveman brain. So basically, when you drink, you want to eat more, you want to shag more, and you want to fight more, these are the three things that they say, which is very true. So learning about alcohol, I think, was really helpful to me because I used to think, oh my god, I can't believe I did those things, like what a terrible person I am. And then when I kind of realised that oh, actually, that wasn't really me, that was our alcohol's fault - and I'm not saying we kind of like absolve all personal responsibility because it's up to us whether we drink that much, but what I realised is that it actually wasn't me doing those like really shameful things. It was the way that alcohol was affecting my brain.
Hannah Witton
Where does that knowledge come into conversations around cheating, and infidelity?
Millie Gooch
This is one of my favourite conversations because it is so complex, because I used to be very, like, all drunk cheating is like awful and terrible. And now I've got a bit more sympathy for it, now that I know it, and I don't think all drunk cheating necessarily comes from a place of like unhappiness. I think people sometimes do make mistakes. I mean, I've spoken to so many women now who have said, you know, like, I cheated on my boyfriend, and literally, at the time, I'm like, so in love with my boyfriend, I was literally just really, really drunk, someone approached me in a club, and I just thought it was a great idea at the time. And you know, now I've - now I've realised the next day. So it is really, really complicated. But then I think you have to think about the personal responsibility of not drinking enough to get to that point where you might cheat on someone. So it's a really complicated conversation of, like, do you forgive that person? Because it's like, we can't just use oh I was drunk as an excuse. But the way it does affect our brain could actually - like we wouldn't have thought about that person, we wouldn't think, are they going to be upset by this? Are they going to be hurt by this? It's, it's really interesting.
Hannah Witton
It makes me think of, and this isn't about drunk cheating but it's about cheating in general. There's a scene in the film Closer, where two of the characters are having, like a fight like a breakup, because he's admitted that he's in love with someone else and is going to leave her. And she says, "There's always a moment. There's a moment where you can say, like, I can give into this, or I can say no." And I like to think of it as there's always lots of small moments. And like every single one of those moments, you can either continue flirting or like, you know, continue having the conversation or like, follow them to the next bar, or like, leave the club together, you know, there're all of these little moments. And depending on how drunk you are at every stage obviously, like you said, like, your decision making capabilities may be different. But there will be those smaller moments earlier on that you might have had more control over. Yeah, that's kind of like how I think of it.
Millie Gooch
100%. I'm sure like - but I mean, I'm not saying once you have like two drinks, you know you're completely allowed to drunk cheat. That's not - this is when you're like very very very drunk, in like blackout stage. So like you said, there will be those building up to it moment. So maybe if you just had like two or three and you were like, but I was drunk! Like, no. When you're at like two or three, you're still kind of pretty much there. You'd be able to be like, oh, yeah, I do have a girlfriend at home. I've just remembered about her.
Hannah Witton
We should probably stop here. Flirting is fun but we should not continue.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Somebody asked - oh, we kind of answered this, someone said: why is it when I'm drunk, I find it harder to orgasm? I get turned on, but it takes long to finish.
Millie Gooch
Yeah.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, that's exactly why because alcohol affects your brain. And that's kind of where orgasms come from really, your brain.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I've heard the brain being described as actually our largest sex organ.
Millie Gooch
There you go. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
And actually, the skin is our largest organ. And if we think about like, sensation and touch as being like sensual and sexual, then maybe your skin is our largest sex organ.
Millie Gooch
There you go, that's your next campaign, you know, going to have it recognised.
Hannah Witton
I mean it's not a hill I'm gonna die on but I just - just food for thought. Someone asked, do you prefer to date other sober people?
Millie Gooch
Oh, so I was - when I was sober dating. I didn't actually go on a date with any sober people just because I didn't come across any but -
Hannah Witton
Where are they all?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, where are you! But I would say that I would prefer to date sober-curious people. So my boyfriend is a drinker. But he is certainly not a big drinker. And I just think it's more, I wouldn't be able to be with someone who's like, a weekend warrior, like partying all the time, because our lifestyles wouldn't just be aligned. Like not that particular choice of me to not drink but as in, I like getting up on a Saturday and going for a walk in the morning and like going for a nice breakfast. If someone's gonna be hung over until like midday, that's just not going to suit me. So as long as someone is a bit more mindful about their drinking choices and how much they drink, then that's good with me. I don't need to date someone who's completely sober. I just need to date someone who is slightly more on my level.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense in terms of it being like lifestyles aligning. And like, whether you drink or not is is kind of irrelevant, because that will naturally kind of feed into your routine and your schedule and your priorities and things like that. Yeah. Somebody asked: how to support someone who doesn't drink but you do. So this is like coming from either a friend or a partner.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I would say I mean, firstly, tell them like that you're proud of them. Because it's always nice to hear that. And I think sometimes you can feel like you're a bit on your own, like if you're the only one in your friendship group who doesn't drink. So that's always nice to hear. And just like accommodate them in the same way that like, if you're throwing a dinner party and you had a vegan, you'd make sure you have like a vegan dish, like just making sure that you've got like good non alcoholic options. I know that like if some of my friends will go to a bar, they'll just like, bring me back a drink and be like, oh, well, we saw this, like nice non alcoholic drink and we thought we might try it. And I always just think, oh my god, that's like really lovely. And I mean, at first, they would just go up to the bar and then come back and I would have nothing and I've like, I still need to be hydrated.
Hannah Witton
I need something in my hand!
Millie Gooch
That would be nice. But now they've, now they've really got on to it. So I would just say yeah, like make sure that you're kind of accommodating them and just check in on them. Maybe on those like busier nights out, you know if it's like 2 in the morning, some of my friends will be like, are you okay, do you want to go home. And like, just kind of having that conversation and just making sure that people are okay. You know like sometimes in group situations, everyone's - especially when people are drinking, they're all chatting over the top of each other, and sometimes I'll just sit there a bit like, oh, I don't think I'm gonna try and get a word in here. So like one of my friends'll turn to me and be like, do you have anything to say cuz everyone is like really shouting. So I think just like assisting with their kind of like voice being heard. But I think ultimately just being there and like listening as well, because, you know, even like three years down the line, I still find some things hard. I still, you know, if I'm on a crazy hen-do and I'm like, oh, I think I might need like a five minute breather. So just yeah, really being nice and accommodating is all you can do, I think
Hannah Witton
What do you do for those moments? Like, like kind of like on a hen-do when you're like, I need a moment.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, like make sure I have time on my own, I think. Even if I'm like I'm gonna go outside in the smoking area for like five minutes, just like reevaluate life. Or I just like go to the toilet, have a bit of a moment, because sometimes you just need to like gather yourself and like breathe because it can be like quite claustrophobic sometimes as well when you're - I think, you know, when you've had a drink you don't notice people pushing you and shoving you all over the place in a nightclub but when you're sober every kind of like knock, it is a bit annoying.
Hannah Witton
I hadn't thought of that but honestly, I think this pandemic is gonna make all of us feel that way. It's like, you're gonna notice anytime someone like comes into your personal space. At least me personally, I feel like I'm now so aware of my personal space. And if I'm ever out in a crowd, I'll just be like *gasps*.
Millie Gooch
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that changes, actually. It might make clubbing nicer for sober people because people will like keep their respectable distance. It might be lovely.
Millie Gooch
Maybe! Or everyone'll just be like, "Humans!!!"
Millie Gooch
Yeah, yeah, or it'll the complete opposite and I'll be like, sandwiched in the middle of people and it'll be my worst nightmare.
Hannah Witton
Not fun.
Millie Gooch
Yeah. But like making sure that you have like a non alcoholic drink as well. Like, even like that routine of something in your hand, even if it's like a water or a Diet Coke, I think that does really help as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess actually, one thing that we didn't really talk about is what are your suggestions for like, sober date ideas? Or like, date ideas that aren't going for drinks?
Millie Gooch
Yeah, I like to do a lot of day dates actually, I found those quite interesting, because especially there's no expectation to drink really that much anyway. So if you suggest doing something in the day, I think people will be like, okay, well, this is obviously not a drinking date. So, I mean, I've done everything from like kayaking, to like just going for a walk and for like a picnic. Those things are really easy. And then, you know, in the evenings, there's, there's all sorts of - especially in London that are fun things to do like mini golf, or like darts or bowling. I've been on some very random dates, but I think it's good because you get to like, do interesting things.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I went to a roller disco once on a date!
Millie Gooch
That is the best date ever. I want to go on a date with whoever - like, I'm not even single, but I would like to date that person because they sound right up my street.
Hannah Witton
Actually I think it might have been me who suggested it, I can't remember.
Millie Gooch
If it's you, then me and you'll go on a date.
Hannah Witton
We can go to a roller disco together when and if they open. But yeah, I'd love all of that. Also like day dates though, for me, I worry about day dates, because I'm like, is there an expectation that if it goes well, it will like turn into an evening date? And I always like having an out.
Millie Gooch
I would never - I would always say I've got an evening plan.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly, love it. Yeah. Do you always have an evening plan? Or do you like, if the date is going really well, do you go, oh, my friend cancelled on me. So I'm free to hang out.
Millie Gooch
I used to be - I used to say, oh, like - or I', just be really, really honest. Because I think being honest is, like, so important up front. So I'm like, oh, I actually did lie and say that I had an evening thing, just in case this went terribly, but I can stay longer. Sometimes people just really appreciate that, they're like, fair enough.
Hannah Witton
I love that. I love that complete honesty. I think that works really well. I guess to end on: what is something that - so somebody who's maybe thinking that then they're not like gelling with their relationship with alcohol at the moment for whatever reason, like what would be your advice to someone who's in that position? Who is just like, why isn't this fun? Why am I always having these anxious hangovers? And like, what would be the first steps? Like, take yourself to, like AA! But you know what I mean.
Millie Gooch
That is a good step in the first place is just questioning it. And I mean, we should all be reevaluating our relationship with alcohol at certain points, like you know, am I drinking too much? Am I within the 14 units? Am I - there's so many like points where we could stop and analyse it. It's the same way that you say about, you know, there's so many little points before you decide to like cheat on someone, there's so many points before your relationship gets really bad with alcohol, that you could stop and question it and maybe make an adjustment or kind of stop doing it basically. So I would say that that is the first thing is, is great that you're questioning it. And then I would say that there is literally so much help out there. There is like a whole corner of the internet dedicated to sober curiosity, mindful drinking, there's like courses, programmes, coaches, like everything that you could possibly think of is out there to help you change your relationship with alcohol in whichever way you wish, whether that's stopping, quitting cutting back. I mean, there's great programmes like Club Soda or One Year No Beer, and then you've got communities and events like Sober Girl Society, and there's just so much out there. So I think as well just don't worry that maybe you're not like that bad because I think that's one of the things that will stop a lot of us from questioning our relationship with alcohol is we think, oh, well actually, I'm not drinking, you know, like, the park bench drunks that I see on the telly, I feel I'm fine and I don't need to change our relationship with alcohol, but really all of us could kind of benefit from changing it positively. So don't just think of it, you know, in black and white terms, I would say.
Hannah Witton
So that actually made me think that that wasn't my last question because how do you tell the difference between - cuz like, we have such a culture of like drinking and alcohol being normalised and when you tell like stories about when you were drunk or like, you know, things that you did, it's like framed in this way that you're an absolute legend, and it's just like, oh my god, I was smashed. And it's like really funny. At what point - where is the line between funny drunk stories and oh, no, that's not great. Like, where is that line? I feel like so many people, like, tell these like, oh, woah, like all these stories, and then if you look at it from a different context or angle, you're like, uh, hang on a second.
Millie Gooch
I think this is such an interesting discussion. Because I mean, I used to - especially out of like, shame or embarrassment as well. I would be feeling awful but then I would go out and tell my drunk stories like I was this kind of like legend. So I'd be like, guys, you never get that I did last night. And I would tell this story, but inside I actually felt quite broken. So it's kind of like, we really - and I think it probably is a British thing as well as this, like, you know, hilarious stiff upper lip, but I wasn't telling people how alcohol was actually making me feel because I was just thinking that everyone felt the same way in that like drinking is hilarious, these drunk stories are hilarious, and kind of using it as a humour to actually kind of make me feel a bit better about it. But it didn't help because it didn't stop me drinking or changing my relationship with alcohol. So it's, it's really hard to say where the line is. I would say one of the major things for me is that like, the next day, the consequences really started outweighing any fun that I was having. So it wasn't that, oh, drinking was never ever fun. Because I would go out and you know, for the first few hours, it'd be hilarious and then it would take a little bit of a dark turn and I would drink far too much, I wouldn't remember how I got home or I'd end up somewhere I didn't wanna be and then the next day I was riddled with anxiety and guilt. And it's like, well, is that kind of like whole weekend of upset really worth it for like two or three hours of fun? So kind of like weighing that up, I would say, is is really important. And just asking the question like, is this actually serving me? Am I living my best life? Is this the life I want to? If yes, great, crack on, but if not, then maybe think about cutting down or changing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, Millie, thank you so much for sharing all of this with us. Where can people find you online and Sober Girl Society and there's a book! Go on, do your plugs.
Millie Gooch
Yeah. Oh, I'll do my plugs. So you can find me, just @milliegooch or the community that I've created is @sobergirlsociety. And we've just released the Sober Girl Society Handbook, which is an empowering guide to living hangover free, so you can get that at all good book places.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. And thank you all so much for listening. Goodbye.
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it. If you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a Global original podcast