Porn Literacy and Dealing with Conservative Backlash as a Sex Educator with Justine Ang Fonte | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone, welcome back to Doing It. I am thrilled to introduce you to Justine Ang Fonte this week who is an intersectional sex educator who I greatly, greatly admire. I came across her work when I heard her speak at SLAM last year, which is a virtual conference that stands for Sexuality Liberators And Movers. If you are a sex educator or a budding sex educator, I would highly recommend checking it out and going to future SLAMs, it has been such a valuable and eye opening event for me. Would recommend. So Justine was a speaker at the main SLAM events last year and then also at SLAM For Youth. And she is such a passionate and captivating speaker on topics around sexuality and racism and I just wanted to get her on the podcast so we could all learn from her together. In this episode, we talk about a recent backlash that Justin experienced from conservative parents and the media about her sex education classes. We get into porn literacy, and how to talk about porn with young people. We talk about the present state of lots of mainstream porn being incredibly misogynistic and racialized. I absolutely loved the conversation that we had about healthy relationships and embracing awkwardness and vulnerability. And Justine gives us some of her favourite TV shows that depict more realistic sex, and relationships. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes, it really helps us out and very much appreciate it.
And here is my chat with the brilliant Justine Ang Fonte.
Welcome, Justine!
Justine Ang Fonte
Thanks.
Hannah Witton
So excited to chat with you. I've seen you give like talks and presentations before and so I'm just like - I basically selfishly just like want a bit of that one on one. I love everything you've had to say. And I especially really want to get into your experience as a sex educator, and also porn literacy, because that seems to be a big thing that you talk about. But first off, like how did you get into sex ed? And what's your favourite thing about it?
Justine Ang Fonte
I got into sex ed via my math eighth grade classroom in 2008.
Hannah Witton
What?
Justine Ang Fonte
I was originally trained to be a middle school math teacher. And in my first experience in the classroom, I was in Houston, Texas, and I had 24 students in this class for summer school, two of them who were already parents, and two of them that were currently pregnant, and in eighth grade. And so it was -
Hannah Witton
How old is that? Like 13?
Justine Ang Fonte
It's supposed to be 13. But many of the students had had to repeat their grade more than twice. And so they were, they were up to 16 years old in that class. And so it was to me, really jarring to see young people having unplanned pregnancies or dealing with parenthood at such a young age. And it was a clear, there was a clear connection to that and their academic achievement. And so that's how I started getting interested in figuring out a way to bring in health education into the classroom more. And there was one particular student who was absent for two straight weeks in the six weeks that I was teaching there. And it all came down to the fact that she was having her period but didn't know that she was having her period. And this has happened to her every single month since sixth grade with no education as to what was happening to her body. So she was just absent for half the school year, every year since her period started, because nobody was giving her any type of health education.
Hannah Witton
And she just stayed home to deal with it.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I wanted to be able to bring some education to students to allow them to exercise their bodily autonomy, understand how their body works, listen to their bodies, so they can take care of it. And those were basic, you know, fundamentals that were not being brought into school classrooms, and we were really failing our kids with a human right that is health. So I had pursued the Masters in public health after the Masters in education, which led me to the work that I'm doing now. I think my favourite thing are the letters of gratitude that I'll receive from students well after I've taught them The con of that is that it takes a while for me to get that thank you letters, literally years, but they are so powerful and so meaningful, because it really resonates with them, the topics that we had covered, and how it's applicable to them in a way that other subjects were not, you know, in, in their real world, whether it's, you know, coming out now that they're in college and feeling like a lot of the things that, you know, I was teaching about, about, you know, the spectrum of identities was something they were now brave enough to be able to do or safe enough to be able to do. Just understanding relationships a lot better. Being their dorm's sex educator by default, because no one else in their dorm knew or understood how to navigate sex. And they were just so grateful. So I'm always appreciative of those, those letters of gratitude from students and probably say that those are my favourites parts of the career.
Hannah Witton
And I think it just, like reinforces how important is, this kind of work and this kind of education. Because like you said, it's, it's what is applicable to people's lives, to young people's lives, but then also like, as you go into adulthood, as well.
Justine Ang Fonte
Definitely.
Hannah Witton
And not just in sex education, but I swear I'm always just like, why don't they teach us this in school in terms of like, just things about, like, personal finances, and like, how to like, figure out if a landlord is like being real sleazy. Just like taxes and things.
Justine Ang Fonte
Practical things.
Hannah Witton
Just like practical life things like relationships and your body and like, it's just like all of that stuff is like secondary, like maybe you get like a day to cover life skills or something. But actually, those are the things that you end up like actually encountering in your day to day life, just as you are going about the world.
Justine Ang Fonte
Agreed.
Hannah Witton
And yeah, I find it really sad when it's like left out but if anything, those letters are just like vindication. Like look this is why!
Justine Ang Fonte
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Like value this. Value sex ed. I think it's really poignant as well, you saying that you encountered in that classroom in Texas as well with what's been happening in Texas recently with the abortion ban, as well.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right. Right.
Hannah Witton
Just really scary. Everything. And I feel like I can be like distanced from it here in the UK, but even so it's just it's a slight on, like, everyone's rights.
Justine Ang Fonte
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So you recently went through a whole debacle at your most recent school. Do you mind explaining what happened there?
Justine Ang Fonte
Yeah, it is recently. But it feels like a long time ago, because of how much intentional healing I have put myself through, since it was such a tough, tough time. But when I look in the calendar, I'm like, that was not long ago.
Hannah Witton
It was this year.
Justine Ang Fonte
It was this year, it was - it started on May 27, with a drop - a piece that dropped from the New York Post about a porn literacy lesson I gave to a class of juniors who are around 16, 17 years old at a school in Manhattan. And it was about two parents and a child complaining that they didn't feel it was appropriate that they were learning about pornography literacy in in their school setting. And the principal also claiming that he was unaware that this was what I was going to be speaking on, despite their three high school psychologists specifically requesting that I teach pornography literacy after seeing me do it in a conference in the past and felt that their students would benefit from it. So it's felt like the internal chaos that was maybe happening in the school, or lack of communication, came at the cost of my safety and wellbeing because the New York Post is one that likes to sensationalise events. And it was something that was picked up by a lot of conservative media. And I was villainized for the next month in media for what I had done in that classroom.
And then it was compounded by an article the second weekend, about a class that I had taught at my home base school in a first grade classroom about private parts being privates. There were some parents that were uncomfortable with that lesson back in November, and, you know, talked to our Director of that division, had a meeting with me about it, and we all felt like it was fairly resolved after that. But it was clear that there was already a reporting that was done in November, and it just didn't get published until I guess the New York Post felt it was juicy enough to follow something that had happened at a different school. So then that second article amplified the amount of media that was going around about me and my career. The third weekend was about a billboard poster campaign against "woke curriculum" on anti racism and comprehensive sexuality education. And the protest, it would include these billboard trucks that would drive around five school campuses in New York City, protesting this woke curriculum as indoctrination of sorts, and had included some of the work that I had been doing. So that amplified more in the media.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Justine Ang Fonte
And the following article, hopefully the last, was about my resignation from the school. So those four weeks were extremely challenging for my mental health, and unfortunately, also my physical health due to street harassment I had experienced, due to -
Hannah Witton
People recognising you on the street? In New York?
Justine Ang Fonte
I had left the school building, you know, after school day was over, and there was someone who was yelling paedophile at me. So.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Justine Ang Fonte
And that was that was four days before the billboard protest campaign. So I already told my directors that I would not be coming to school the day that the protest was happening, because if something is going to be organised in opposition to what I'm doing, I'm definitely not going to be coming to school that day when I can be on Zoom, when already an unplanned street harassment has occurred. So that was a - that was really hard time. The hardest part was not being able to say anything in that month because I was still a contracted faculty member who was not allowed to engage with media, otherwise it would have been grounds for dismissal. And that was a really hard thing to have my reputation marred so deeply and not be able to -
Hannah Witton
And not being able to say anything, yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte
Say anything at all. It was also hard to juggle still being a professional teaching my first, second, and third graders in their last remaining classes before the school year was out, who were left in the dark as to why I didn't show up for one of those weeks as I was dealing with my mental health. And then upon returning, confused as to why I had returned because they had thought that I was fired. And you know, these are 6, 7, 8 year olds. And ironically, the lessons I was teaching them was all about how to make your own calming glitter jar. And so we were making like snow globes of sorts with glitter and Elmer's glue and you know, Mason jars to help them with their meditative practices and the mindfulness part of this health course I'm teaching. And I was far from being able to be calm myself, because it was an extremely emotional experience.
So once I was able to clap back, I felt that it was wonderful that the New York Times approached me to write a profile piece on July 7, which was already at the end of my contract with the school, so I was able to speak back on what had been happening and how I'd been dealing it or what my plans are going forward. So I've been doing a lot of press, podcasts included. But I am so fortunate that I'm in a place that I can speak to it as something in the past and something that I have learned a lot from in terms of sociology, anthropology, politics, and where my career stands in all of that and how it's received.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh my goodness, I feel like - I have so many thoughts, but mostly just like anger. And then also just like so much like awe and respect for you to kind of have really prioritised your mental health during that time so that you can like be where you are now and just be like, I'm doing okay, this is what's next. Like, let's go. Was it - so it was just two parents?
Justine Ang Fonte
So - based on the articles.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's - because one of the things I was thinking about is like, so what can, like, teachers who are sex positive, or like other parents who are sex positive, what can they do to support sex ed curriculum that is happening in the schools where their kids are? Because you always hear about the kind of - the more conservative parents who are like, "I want to remove my kid from this class," or "I'm going to complain to the local newspaper". But what about the parents and the teachers who are in support of it? What things can they do to kind of like support faculty, support the young people that they're, you know, trying to raise. On that side of things, what can be done?
Justine Ang Fonte
So I do a lot of work in independent schools, which, you know, are private schools. So my recommendation to parents and faculty to, you know, push this forward is really getting face time with the Board of Trustees, because those are the people that have the decision power. Those are the people that I take issue with, with what had happened to me and my reason for leaving the school. I have extremely close wonderful relationships with so many people at the school. And I take issue with the leaders who let this happen. And let this happen without protecting me in the way that I needed in order to feel safe and appreciated as a long standing faculty member in that community. So it's the Board of Trustees, it's the board president, it's the people that have the power. Because I had a lot of support from both families and from faculty, but none of them have power. None of them have the ability to make the statements as a school community, in response to the New York Post or in media, to be able to say, we do stand by this curriculum and support our community member. And that was really what was the most hurtful, is the level of support I received, but what support was actually put out in the public. And there was a huge gap in that.
So I think a lot of people think that I'm really upset with, you know, the entire school, when I'm really upset by like, 12 people who actually have the power. And it's the same thing, you know, there are a few people that have the power. There are two parents at that, you know, school that I was a guest at, that made all of this happen. And there were a handful of parents at my home school that, you know, were quoted in the second piece, when the overwhelming majority of America actually agrees with this type of education, and want this education for their students. But we are letting the loud voices of a powerful few continue to dominate legislation, dominate, you know, the culture war that we're in, and really tearing us down, when actually the majority of people want this to be a part of school systems.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it really is - that case, and when you were explaining your story, made me think about how a lot of people on the right will scream cancel culture. And so, and kind of like be against cancel culture because they think that it's something that is like coming from the left, and is weaponized against, like, people in power on the right. But the reverse happened to you.
Justine Ang Fonte
Absolutely. And when that protests occurred, they had done anonymous billboard protests, where they hired a company to hold up the signs because they didn't want their face attached to the opposition.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Justine Ang Fonte
And that's the thing like if they put their face by this and critique a school's anti racist, comprehensive sex education programme, they know their kid's going to struggle getting into accepted into Yale that following year. So they don't want to be cancelled, but they're happy to cancel a woman of colour, especially an Asian woman, during Asian Pacific Islander month.
Hannah Witton
Right. Mm hmm. Just a massive yikes. And, like completely lost for words, in just terms of, I find it so hard to rationalise a lot of -well no, it's not hard to rationalise because I think I do understand a lot of it because like you said, it's like, "Don't want my face on it because then I will be deemed a racist."
Hannah Witton
Right?
Hannah Witton
Or a misogynist or whatever and that's - and so they recognise that this is not something that publicly that they should be seen doing but they're happily to like, privately, like from the safety of their home, like put money and like make - like ruin somebody else's day, month, life.
Justine Ang Fonte
My face was plastered all over Twitter as a paedophile. And a picture that they had taken from whatever my social media was, right? And so that defamation is extremely hurtful.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and this is something I've heard from other friends of mine who are sex educators, where people who oppose inclusive comprehensive sex education, especially for young people, they get labelled paedophiles. And that tends to be the just kind of the rebuke that you get, with a complete lack of understanding.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right, understanding and clearly them sexualizing children, thinking that the only way we can talk to them about bodily autonomy is by talking about sex and intercourse. So if anything, they're already outing themselves by thinking that that is the only thing that involves sexuality, when in fact, when you do this right, and you're doing it at a young age, we are protecting them from being vulnerable to specifically paedophiles who are sexualizing them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so true. Well, this podcast is not for kids. So we can get into some more of like the nitty gritty stuff. And I really want to hear a lot of your thoughts on like, porn literacy, like for young people, but also like, for us adults. It's hard out here, I think. And a lot of what you talk about is around the racist, misogynistic stereotypes and stuff that we see in porn, and how that impacts us but also just how it like plays into white supremacy and the patriarchy and all that nasty stuff. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. And like, how do we even like, start to grapple with this? Because I feel like I often do the like "porn can be good "thing. But it's always good to kind of like, have that critique and have that nuance about it.
Justine Ang Fonte
Yeah, I think with was like any type of media, Hannah, we need to be literate about, you know, how what we're seeing has gone through many different, like, layers of approval with a certain intentionality, right? And so we forget that this isn't - these aren't just like people that just hop on a screen, like when we're, I don't know, taking a selfie. It's, um, they have, they have auditions, they have a specific, you know, criteria that they're meeting that's being asked of them. And we also need to make the distinction between mainstream pornography and pornography as a whole. I'm always careful to mention that mainstream pornography is what I'm bringing in as the one to really be critiquing, when I'm - especially in school spaces with school aged children.
Hannah Witton
Because that's the one that most people will have access to.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly. It's the free porn, it's the accessible porn, when we're talking about an eight year old, that is, you know, clicking on a pop up that, you know, appears on their iPad or on their computer, when they're googling something else. We're talking about mainstream porn, the porn that's easy to get to, because that's what is being accessed by most people, and especially by younger people. Because there is ethical porn out there. There is feminist porn out there. There is a lot of porn that is allowing us to really explore our sexuality in safe and fulfilling and pleasurable ways. And those three adjectives are the ones I use in all of my like, you know, talks: safety, fulfilment and pleasure. Does mainstream porn, however, allow you to be able to experience safety, fulfilment and pleasure in a way that is true in real life? And oftentimes, the answer is no. Or it's yes, after you have to filter through a lot of shit first. And that's often not what young people are doing, especially when they're watching porn in a household that wouldn't allow them to. They're trying to get shit done within minutes' time, whereas adults like no one's parenting them usually.
Hannah Witton
We got time to browse.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right, we got time to browse and like, oh, and you know, you have much more of a lived experience, probably if you're sexually active with other people, to compare that that body is not a body that I'd normally see, you know, or that move is not a move that is normal for someone who's not an acrobat, right? Or I've been in a relationship where it wasn't that easy for something like that to happen, like you actually have a metric, you can compare it to -
Hannah Witton
You have a point of reference.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly. But young people for - many of them, they might not even have been sexually active yet. And they're being introduced into either intercourse or other intimate behaviours through mainstream porn. And so, you know, they're seeing -
Hannah Witton
And that becomes their point of reference for their real life experiences rather than it being the other way around.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly. Exactly. So they may be getting such a skewed aspect of what a relationship looks like, what bodies are supposed to look like, who they're supposed to be attracted to, what they're supposed to do to those bodies that they're attracted to. How do you speak to them or not speak to them? And they are learned implied messages about the genres that they are reading that fall under each of that.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, the genre names. Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte
Yeah, I mean, the porn titles for a lot of mainstream porn are really aggressive, offensive, racialized, and they're learning, "Oh, so when I see a person that is of that race, now I'm going to attach to that in real life, that they like being, you know, jizzed on their face, or they like being choked, or they're always an ex con, or they're let's they're always someone that, you know, likes to do things with their step mom." Like they're learning all of these, you know, very extreme things about communities now, and particularly communities that have historically always been marginalised. So we don't have a genre that's British. We don't have a genre that's whites. But we have a genre for hentai and Japanese and Filipino and Asian MILF, and Ebony and Indian because we are exoticized and fetishized. And so we are therefore put in this category as something that you can dehumanise because we are objectified as a tool to bring you pleasure. And then that gets translated into the real world, aka, you know, dating apps or being catcalled on the street in the same type of language that we're reading in a porn title.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's honestly when I realised that, like you said, there's no like, porn genre for white people, I was like, oh, yeah, because white supremacy means that we're just like the default. And we - and like white people don't have a race. It's like not a - it's like a non category.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then within the context of porn, if the identifying feature of the people like in the title is their race, and then what sex act they're doing, or what role they're performing, like you said, you start to tie those things together, like, "Oh, all Asian women are submissive, that's, yep, that's just a thing."
Justine Ang Fonte
Right, your brain literally rewires to think that because of the dopamine hits, where now when I see an Asian woman in real life, I'm gonna associate that with subservience, someone that I can dominate, someone that I can choke, someone that I can jizz on their face and she's gonna like it. And she also happens to be my math tutor and that sucks me dry. Like, I mean, just like, think of everything is just the same as if, you know, what I'm reading in porn or watching and porn is real life. And that harms people, and it harms people who are being subjected to that, you know, preconceived notion.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So obviously, some of these things you're not gonna like, say out loud to young people necessarily, because some of them like also may not see porn. And so you obviously don't want to be in a situation where you're traumatising them in a classroom.
Justine Ang Fonte
For sure.
Hannah Witton
And so, how do you navigate that with young people? So, what we talked about like porn becoming like their point of reference for sex and relationships. So what are some good alternatives to start creating like healthy reference points for young people?
Justine Ang Fonte
Yeah, well, it doesn't happen all in one lesson. You know, I, I am brought in to schools often to give a talk on something, but it usually is couched with a lot of other like healthy relationship lessons that they're already getting in maybe their health classes, or I'm actually giving a series of workshops that, you know, talk about healthy relationships centred on safety, fulfilment and pleasure and porn literacy happens to be one lesson in that bunch. And so there are like whole lessons on what is abuse? What is a healthy relationship? What are the signs of that? What are the ways that you can, you know, differentiate a friendship from a romantic relationship? You know, how do you express, you know, with consents, how you like someone and show affection? So all of that is like, you know, sex ed that, you know, some students are getting, and is, is quite comprehensive, so that when they get their media literacy or their porn literacy lesson, we can refer back to, okay, so we've been talking about safety, fulfilment and pleasure. Is porn sex positive? And some of my high school students will say, it depends if it's ethical porn. And then I go, okay, great, I'm glad that you will already know the difference, because we've gotten to that point. So with mainstream porn, is it sex positive? And they said, well, no, because in a lot of ways, they're not teaching us how to have sex in a safe way. Because we rarely see protection being used. We don't see consent being, you know, utilised, because the notion is that everyone's down to fuck. We don't see, you know, diverse body types in mainstream porn. We continue to see, you know, body types that are similar to commercials and to like actors in Hollywood, with a small varying degree. And if we are seeing, you know, diverse body types or diverse identities, it's, it's a genre.
Hannah Witton
A fetish. Yeah, a genre.
Justine Ang Fonte
Yes, exactly, right? And so they're seeing already how things are being depicted, and how, you know, white porn performers don't have the same labels, as you know, as people of colour. And so we're, I'm not saying any of the porn titles, I'm letting students that want to speak share in you know, anonymous ways through live polls that we'll be doing online, some will raise their hand and aren't afraid to share, even if that might mean that people will know that they have seen porn, but I normalise upfront where I know that the mainstream porn industry can be very predatory, and that they're trying to get customers and, you know, clientele as early as they can with pop ups. So I'm telling them, I'm defaulting to believing that all of you have actually been exposed to porn in some way. And not by choice, because it is everywhere. And they are trying to really lure you in, in an early age. And when you have bodies that looks so different than bodies you normally see, how can you not be curious. So if you haven't come across it, this will still be relevant, because unfortunately, even against your will, you may still be exposed to it and I don't want you to be scared of your body. When that moment happens.
Hannah Witton
Or you might have relationships with people who have seen porn as well.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly. And so right away, you know, I don't say like, alright, anyone that raises their hand, I can assume like, who's watched porn on purpose, because that's not the case. And so, you know, I let them know it's normal for you to be curious about your body, it's normal for you to want to seek out pleasure. What's not normal is a dependence on a screen to provide you with pleasure. Because I want you to have such a self sufficient, pleasurable life that you don't need anything to be attached to, in order to experience that pleasure. Maybe it's an accessory.
Hannah Witton
Or just like an added bonus.
Justine Ang Fonte
It's an added bonus if that ends up happening, right. But we have young people that are now forming a dependence on porn in order for them to get off that it's developed a social sexual anxiety with real people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, one of the things I was going to say as well was like when teaching young people and young adults, like you said about like, healthy relationships and like red flags, and all of that kind of stuff. Like, how much can you or do you acknowledge with them, just like, hey, relationships can be messy, and sometimes, most of the time, even with adults, we're making it up as we go along. And like communication is hard. And often you like fumble and mess things up. And like, obviously you don't want to make young people feel bad for a lack of experience whilst also kind of explaining that actually just like going out into the world and living it and experiencing it with your toolkits, you know, like with knowing all of this stuff is often like one of the best ways to start to understand and like gain knowledge.
Justine Ang Fonte
Definitely, Hannah. And I like to use the word toolkit because that's the problem. Our world does not want to prioritise building that toolkit for young people. So they are sending them off into the world, matriculating them from whatever schools, prestigious or not, thinking they'll figure it out. And it's no wonder we have a fucking Me Too movement, right? Because we are putting them out in the world and not equipping them with the tools to navigate tough conversations, or we're making the conversation tougher than it needs to be, because we never even gave them the 101 lesson in conflict resolution, or how to ask someone if they're comfortable about something. And you know, in some classrooms like mine, were even going the extra mile or metre around, you know, well, what if we can actually teach them to understand pleasure with communication, that it could be even amplified? Your pleasure can be enhanced, if you have communication there. And it's going to be more awkward if you know, you go right into it without really understanding what the other person wants and wants to feel.
Hannah Witton
But also understanding that like, awkwardness is not the end of the world.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
I think we're so terrified of feeling awkward in like sexual or romantic situations, when actually that kind of like awkwardness and vulnerability is just something to embrace. And like, feel it. It's horrible. But sometimes I find that like, moments where I think it's awkward, the other person hasn't even registered that the moment is awkward. Like, sometimes it's something that is only happening internally. And you're just like, oh my god, everyone else here also is aware that this is a horrifically awkward situation. But no one else has actually noticed.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right. It is very subjective, for sure. And I think we don't, as adults, as, you know, young people, and even as kids, we don't sit well with awkwardness, and we want to run away from it as much as possible. There's an anxiety behind that. And, you know, we need to start getting accustomed to powering through awkwardness as something that can be okay, and something that isn't that scary, you know, assuming that no one's like physical or mental, you know, wellbeing is being - there's an imminent threat to it, it's more like this is a temporary states. That's why we lean on our, you know, technology right away, so that we don't have to have this awkward feeling of like, we're waiting for the bus and nobody, you know, is like talking to each other. So instead of trying that, or just sitting and standing in silence, we bring out our phone and start scrolling mindlessly through something. And so the same thing, you know, with intimate activity. Intimacy is really vulnerable, which for many people leads to awkwardness, because we are well practised and well exercised at being in intimate, vulnerable environments, where if you're with the right person, that can be a moment that feels safe, that feels like you can communicate about how to get out of that awkward state together.
Hannah Witton
And how you create like a deeper connection together as well. And maybe something that you can laugh about, later.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
But I think this is like pressure on young people and on adults as well just to, like, have their shit together. And like, know exactly what they want, how to communicate that. And like, just to know, like, how to navigate romantic relationships and sexual situations. And so then if you don't know what you're doing, then you're like, not good at it. Like there's this almost like, it's like performance anxiety, I guess. It's like, part of that whole thing. But not just sexual, but like, "Oh, I don't know how to, like, behave on a date." and everything like that. So like you said, we just like avoid so much.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right, right. I mean, to bring it back down just to schools and adults again, though, we don't equip our young people to know that, you know, their changing bodies are normal. We, you know, keep feeding them images of like, this is what the standard of beauty is. So of course, when their body is going through puberty, they're thinking that there's something wrong with them because it looks nothing like that commercial or advertisement. And I mean, again, we are feeding them these images to further make them feel uncomfortable about their body. So when their body is being most vulnerable, by either being naked or starting to interact with somebody else's, of course, they're not going to feel confident about it. And so we need to just do a better job as an adult community at diversifying what our young people are seeing, so that everyone can feel really included and normal around these things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it kind of comes back against what you were saying at the beginning about like, they're just being these, like few people in power, like the people who are making the decisions about who is going to be casted in what movie and like, who's gonna be the model in this advertising campaign. Whereas, like, most people, like, we want to see more diversity in our media. Like, it's something that we all want. Like, at least from my perspective, I'm like, this can't be a bad thing. And yet, time and time again, it's just tall, white, thin people. In like, in everything, and it's one of those things that even just like with every like new movie and stuff that comes out, I'm just like, how many tall white thin people like are there?
Justine Ang Fonte
Right. It starts to like skew your own, yeah, idea of statistics when that is -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm like I don't see this many in my day to day life, just like walking around. And like where do they all come for, right?
Justine Ang Fonte
They are hand selected by a powerful few.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's honestly wild. And I'm just like, okay, yeah, I get it. Some of you are talented, but there's like a whole bunch of like, talented people who look different to you.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right, right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I just thought as well. The only like category for white people in porn is hair colour. And that's for the women only. The men still nothing.
Justine Ang Fonte
Interesting.
Hannah Witton
If you think about like blonde, brunette, redhead.
Justine Ang Fonte
Oh, I see what, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Hannah Witton
But still nothing to do with skin. We had a few questions from our listeners. Somebody asked: would you consider porn an art form?
Justine Ang Fonte
Yeah, absolutely. I think people forget that. It is an art form. We think it's education. When it is - it was really designed as a form of expression. Right? And so I think we forget it's an entertainment industry. It's an art industry. They are porn performers. So yeah, it is absolutely an art form. And we forget that.
Hannah Witton
And there's some art that you don't like.
Justine Ang Fonte
Exactly, right, right.
Hannah Witton
There's some shit art. There's offensive arts. There is liberatory art. It can be all of the things. Um, somebody asked: how do you think the media/tv affects our sex education? And do you have any like good or bad examples? Maybe some good examples cuz I feel like we've been...
Justine Ang Fonte
I'm a strong believer that media creates consciousness. And that can be, you know, used for good or bad. And I really see that when it comes to sex education it's often for bad. I think it sensationalises, glamorises a lot of things that create unrealistic expectations for real people.
Hannah Witton
I feel like my sex education was like The Notebook.
Justine Ang Fonte
There you go, right, you can see so many different examples of like, of things that like, "Oh, this is how I'm learning what love is," when love can look like a lot of different things. Right? So think - you can think of a lot of negative examples, but honour your request on the positive. I really love Netflix's show Sex Education. Yes, I think that that is one of the very few examples of media that is creating a consciousness that is sex positive and well informed about how bodies really work.
Hannah Witton
And awkward!
Justine Ang Fonte
Yes, the way that they depict awkwardness too is just so well done.
Hannah Witton
So good.
Justine Ang Fonte
So I think that is one big one. I love the new show Starstruck.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, I don't know it.
Justine Ang Fonte
It's on HBO, it's with Nikesh Patel. And it is it also depicts awkwardness so so well, and actually, it's a British show, but it was really well done in terms of like, it being a rom com that is very realistic, in like the interactions and so I'm really - I think that's a great one. And then I would say Broad City.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte
It's an excellent one. There's a particular scene in the series that I love talking about. When Ilana is - I think it's a maybe a one year anniversary with Lincoln, her partner, and they go to an Italian restaurant to basically do their check in. Their check-in on their relationship over this, like fancy Italian, you know, restaurant that they've been wanting to go to. So it's not something that they're dreading, like the, you know, their employee review. It's not something they're actually looking forward to like -
Hannah Witton
I do the check ins with my partner as well. I love doing them, like, "Okay, so what's been good? What's been bad? Room for improvement."
Justine Ang Fonte
Right? Yeah. And they do it in a way that is just not just comical, but can be really uplifting and affirming. And that's what I love about it. It's still a celebration of them, while being able to go down their list of like, so I really want to start doing this more, you know, in sex, how do you feel about it? And then there's bringing, like, I really want to like, move and start having kids in this other state by this point. How do you feel about that, right? Yeah, so it goes from like, smaller stuff to higher stakes stuff. But I think it's just such a healthy example of what I wish more relationships had, where it's an expected ritual that is just a part of, you know, tuning you up, right? As opposed to this like stigmatised thing where the only time you talk about it is when you're in the middle of a fight, now you're bringing up all the things you've been like bearing under the rug for months, right? But it doesn't have to be so difficult, but it can be something that is just expected and that's, that's like the heart of practising consent. It's like, what is it that you know, you want more in this relationship that I could probably provide, so that we can just be better together and enjoy each other. Safety, fulfilment and pleasure together.
Hannah Witton
And I think that's a really good point about like, if you make a conscious effort to actually find time that feels non threatening, and feels joyful to have those conversations - then you're right, if you don't do that, the only time that you're ever going to like talk about the relationship, rather than just experiencing it, is - it's gonna come out when you're irritated, or when it's been bubbling up and festering for so long that actually, like you're resentful at that point, which is never a good place to be. You want to be able to find time to like voice those things before it turns into resentment.
Justine Ang Fonte
Right, right. Agreed. It's about prevention and enhancement and enrichment as opposed to reaction to something that's already happened.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so true. And we don't get taught how to be proactive in our - in actually like, one of my favourite terms for like, healthy sex and relationships is like co-creation. Like that's like how I see it like in a partnership or in a throuple or whatever like your situation is, like all of you together are like co-creating the relationship or the sexual experience that you want together. And like you said, it's not a reactionary thing, it's not somebody like goes "I want to do this" or like, "Will you be my girlfriend?" and then you go okay, let me see what this proposal is and then decide. it's like actually no, let's come together and figure it out and create whatever it is that you're gonna create together.
Justine Ang Fonte
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But Justine, thank you so much. It has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you.
Justine Ang Fonte
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
Where can people find you online and also feel free to plug your boundaries Instagram as well because that is brilliant.
Justine Ang Fonte
Oh, thank you. So I have two main Instagram accounts. It is @imjustineaf. That's my kind of like sampler platter of my whole diverse abundant life. So feel free to check that out. But I have a specific account just for helping people to set their boundaries where I am a ghostwriter actually composing text messages for people that are following me on how to set their boundary with a body shaming mother-in-law, with a person that are trying to you know dump, with their boss who is abusing their overtime, with you know, a co-worker who takes credit for all the projects. Whatever it might be, I am literally ghostwriting the scripts for you to press send on but you have to press send on it. so that one is - so those are called my goodbyes and my good boundaries, and the account is @_good.byes_. So you know don't ghost, just send a good bye. And that's where I help people out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely check it out. So good.
Justine Ang Fonte
Thanks. Thanks. I love that page. It's getting a lot of traction. And my website is just justinefonte.com. That's Justine, F as in Frank, O N T E.com. And that's a little taste of my whole career.
Hannah Witton
Lovely. Well, thank you so much. And thanks so much for your time, and all of your wisdom, and I hope you're doing well. And I'm really excited to see like, what you do next and all of the brilliant work that you do.
Justine Ang Fonte
Thank you, Hannah, I appreciate it.
Hannah Witton
And thank you all for listening. Bye