Being Naked, Queer Sex and Fingering with Ruby Rare | Transcript
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Ruby Rare
If you have a kink or fetish, that isn't something that you need to share with everyone in your sex life, like, there will be some people who might be into it as well, and other people who might not be, but are like, hey, I'm so supportive of the fact you love this thing. Like, you have my full support. If I can help in any way, let me know, but this isn't going to be like a major thing, for me. And I kind of want people to know that that's allowed a bit more, it doesn't mean that you're weird if, like, someone isn't into something that you're into.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. Today's guest is someone I've had on the podcast before but she's just so brilliant, and her new book is out. She is now an author. So I just had to get her back on so we could celebrate and chat all about it. My guest today is, of course, the wonderful Ruby Rare. Ruby is a queer, non monogamous sex educator. She's worked with many, many young people through the sexual health charity Brooke, who we are both ambassadors of, and she's now mostly working on sex ed for adults, and has been doing many talks on things like porn, sex toys, ethical non monogamy, and how to be a slut. Ruby also run is the Body Positive, Clothes Optional life drawing event, Body Loves Sketch Club with her friend Rosie, and we talk a bit about that, and Ruby's loved for being nude in the episode. We talk about Ruby's new book Sex Ed, a guide for adults, writing it in lockdown and trying to remember how you finger someone. We talked about queerness and the difficulties that can bring with sex and relationships, but also the potential freedom in being able to write your own rules when it comes to the sex you have and relationship structures. We answered a bunch of your questions about blowjobs, consent and kissing, delayed ejaculation, and queer sex. And of course, I had to ask Ruby about her jelly fetish. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. Here is the wonderful Ruby Rare. Ruby welcome back. Thank you for joining me.
Hannah Witton
It's so lovely to be back here again. Although I was thinking, when we did this before we were both sat in my kitchen, and now sadly, I'm not that far away from my kitchen, but you're nowhere near here. So
Hannah Witton
I'm nowhere near your kitchen, unfortunately.
Ruby Rare
I'm sad that we're not in the same place. But no, thank you so much for having me back.
Hannah Witton
No, I'm really excited because you have a book out, you are an author.
Hannah Witton
I am now an author, which is mad.
Hannah Witton
Congratulations! I feel like it happened so fast. Because it was like, at the beginning of lockdown when we had a chat about your book, and now it's like here.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it happened really fast. I mean, to be honest, I think I think lots of people I've spoken to who are bringing things out this year had that similar feeling where everyone was like, You know what, fuck it. Everything is terrible right now, we all have loads of time on our hands, let's just do this and do it quickly and
Hannah Witton
Let's just have something
Ruby Rare
Yeah, I'm quite an impatient person. I kind of fluctuate, some things I'm really patient about but with something like this, I already was like, okay, come on, I want to out now, I need to hurry up. So if it had been a traditional one, that had been like a much longer wait, I don't know how I would have dealt with it. So it was a super quick process. I wrote
Hannah Witton
Yeah, when did you finish writing it?
Ruby Rare
I wrote, I finished writing in like, beginning of July maybe
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Ruby Rare
So it was like really intense. It was like, just as lockdown started, I was like starting to write. And then while everyone else was like flailing and didn't like, lots of people I knew didn't have that much to do, I just literally like locked myself in a room and wrote a fucking book in that time, in the really intense time of lockdown, which was actually quite nice. It was good to have something to do. But I didn't have partnered sex for like the whole experience because me and my partner weren't locked down together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I remember seeing on your Instagram stories you like posted like a photo of your fingers just being like, trying to remember how to finger somebody so I can write about it.
Hannah Witton
There was a lot of me, well like my desk, which I'm sat on now, faces out of our front windows because we've got a kind of little courtyard where I live. And there are some little girls down in this like courtyard who always come out in the middle of the day with their scooters and like scoot up and down. So throughout lockdowns we kind of created a friendship when like I'm writing on my desk and I like see them outside and give them a wave. But there were a couple of weeks where I was doing like, I was having to figure out like tongue actions, and hand actions, and I'd like have my tongue out trying to figure out how you go down on someone because it's been so long. And then having these like sweet, four or five year old scoot past, it was such a surreal experience. Hopefully they just thought I was just being very strange, and their parents didn't come and complain or anything
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just the strange lady who lives next door. Yeah. But congrats, again, on the book. And I think, just generally, tell us a bit about it, I'll get into the things that I love about it. But give us your spiel.
Hannah Witton
Okay, the professional spiel, let's see if I can turn this on. I come from a sexual health background of working with young people, because I was involved with Brooke for like five years, and now I'm very, very, very happy to be an ambassador, like yourself. And my interest in sex education was very much born from helping young people and helping adults who work with young people. But about two years ago, I was asked to do my first workshop for adults, which was about how to consume porn mindfully. And it really blew my mind because I went there and all of the questions and the comments that I got from an adult audience were like, really similar, if not identical to the questions that I was getting from young people. And it was such a good reminder that, like, at any point in our lives, people are always curious about sex and always want to learn more, whether it's for like their own personal, like journeys in discovering themselves and more things that they like. But also, just like, it's a topic that we don't get taught about enough, and doesn't get spoken about enough, so people are really hungry for this. And that's why, when it came to writing, it really felt right to start with something for adults, because it could be silly, and explicit, and sexy, and I kind of didn't have to filter myself as much as maybe I would do if I was writing for a younger audience. But also, it's, it just feels really needed. Like all of this is stuff that we should technically have got taught at school. And yet most people I know, including myself, didn't get taught, like even half of this stuff. So I hope it really speaks to people and just like makes it feel fun and joyful. I feel so sad that like, in traditional sex ed, rarely are we reminded that consensual sex is meant to be fun.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Ruby Rare
So I just wanted to inject that, as much fun as possible
Hannah Witton
It definitely does feel like a really like joyful book, and like a celebration of all different kinds of sex, and just like sexual pleasure in general. And I think one of the things that I love about it that I, I guess I just haven't really seen in, in many sex ed books, or like materials and stuff, is that it's like explicit descriptions of sexual acts. And like, how to finger somebody, how to give a blowjob, how to peg someone, like, all of that kind of stuff. And it made me think that, like, we just never taught that, we really, there's nowhere that you can go that like explicitly discusses sex acts, that isn't like porn, to actually, like, if you're a young person, you're like, actually, I heard this thing like, actually, how do you do that? The only place that they're gonna find explicit content of that sex act is most likely porn
Hannah Witton
And even then, or even, I think there are some places where there's more like instructional advice. But a lot of the time it's presented as like, in order to succeed with this, you need to do this, in this order, in this way. And it often fails to recognise how different, not only our like bodies, and our like nervous systems, and like how we feel things are. But also, like taking into consideration the other contexts surrounding the situation. And also just like giving people options, because I don't, there are so many different ways that you can enjoy all of these different sex acts. But what I wanted to do in that section was just give a lot of different options of things be people could do and then give people their like invitation to go away and build on these and see what works for them and their partners and, and kind of have fun with it. And it's almost like a sort of sexy, choose your own adventure. I'm like giving you all these options, and then it's your job to go off and make them happen and do it in a way that feels right for you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it feels like a little sexual buffet. Because I, kind of how I've seen sex been described, how like if it is like a buffet and it's like a menu of different things that you can pick from rather than this, like, rigid script, like of getting from point A to point B, and like, these are the steps that you have to follow. But on that, one of the things that like you talk about in the book, but you also like, talk about on social media, a lot that I wanted to ask you about, was how you're so celebratory of your own queerness. And how, and like a queer sex in particular, and how it like, enables you to like, write your own rules when it comes to sex.
Hannah Witton
I feel really strongly about that. It's been really, you're not like, I've had a couple of interviews this morning and it's been really nice that everyone's pointed that out. And it's so lovely because it's really important to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, really definitely comes across.
Ruby Rare
And it's also just so exciting, because, you know, this is like, it's still so early days and actually like hearing feedback about what, what speaks to people in the book. So it's, I'm, I'm so happy that that's one thing that like lots of people are taking away from it. Because, yeah, like my attitude to sex was completely transformed by coming out. Like to myself first and then to other people and then just sleeping with a broader variety of flavours of human. Me and my friend Rosie say that a lot of the time being like, Okay, so this is like a lady flavour person, because it just, lets not get into like the super like, how do you define all of that shit in terms of like gender, and sex, and sexuality? Yeah, it's just all flavours. So, yeah, I just, I think that we can all gain so much from thinking about sex with a more queer minded attitude. Because, like, it can be a burden, I guess. Like, as a queer person, when I started to have sex, actively as a queer person, there wasn't, if there's not that much information for straight people on how to do sex acts like that advice gets like, completely minimised when it comes to anything else.
Hannah Witton
So true
Ruby Rare
So it was like, you know, it was, I had to really discover on my own like, okay, what's it like? Like, how am I going to navigate having sex with a trans partner? How am I going to navigate like, having sex with someone who has a vulva, and I have evolver but vulva for is completely different from mine, and I don't know what that is. And also a weird thing that people don't talk about, like, I remember there being advice, that like when I started sleeping with women and people with vaginas, with vulva's, that you was like, Oh, well, you've got one, so it will be easy. But you never look at, or touch your own vulva or vagina in the same way.
Hannah Witton
From that angle
Ruby Rare
It's a minefield,
Hannah Witton
It's a different angle.
Hannah Witton
It's so, it's not harder, it just feels really alien. And I think it can, it can feel alienating to newly queer women, that there's this expectation that it just should be easy. It's not, it's new, it's hard. And it can be kind of daunting sometimes. So, yeah, I really liked that I got to rewrite my own rules when it came to sex as a queer person. I can also see that that can be a burden, and sometimes we do just want to be able to fit in and it is crap that that is a lot harder to do as a queer person. But if we flip it on its head and actually think about it as a positive, I think lots of people who are straight or mostly straight, could really benefit from thinking about sex in a slightly more queer way. Because for me, that just means like curiosity and playfulness. Like, again, just picking different things from that sex menu that you're creating for yourself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, hard agree. Actually, that kind of links to something that someone asked on Instagram, which was how do you navigate having sex with someone of the same gender as you for the first time?
Hannah Witton
I get this question a lot, and I really do hope that there's a lot of good advice about that in the book, because I was quite mindful, thinking about my audience, I wanted this book to be for anyone who wants to pick it up. I think anyone who picks it up can learn from something, but a lot of the people who I speak to are women who, and a lot of them are kind of like fairly curious, or sort of like very new in their queerness, and just don't know what to do about it in terms of sex.
Hannah Witton
People feeling like ahhh I'm overwhelmed
Ruby Rare
But the thing is, be overwhelmed, be honest with the fact that you feel overwhelmed and you don't know what to do. The first time I slept with a woman, it would have been so much harder and a lot scarier if I had acted like I knew exactly what I was doing,
Hannah Witton
So true, yeah
Ruby Rare
And it kind of gave me a do over like, I know, I can't remember if you and I have spoken about this before, but I've definitely heard you talking about like, losing your virginity in quote marks and like the first time you had sex with someone, and that actually being a really positive experience for you. Largely, am I remembering that right? Yeah, good. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
If we had spoken about it, mine was fairly positive,
Hannah Witton
Whereas mine was a bit of a like stab in the dark, was not a fab, was not a great experience. My boyfriend at the time, we finished having sex and within like two minutes, my boyfriend's mum, who didn't know I existed called, and he turned around, I was like, my mom's gonna be home in like five minutes so you should leave.
Hannah Witton
Oh no!
Ruby Rare
You know, not a great first time partnered sex experience. But actually, I had sex with a woman for the first time in my early 20s. And I kind of got to give myself the losing virginity experience that I would have wanted. It was very nice. And I was able to be like, look, I don't know what I'm doing. Can we just like figure this out as we go, like, I am not an expert, I have no idea what's going on. And that, more than any, like practical advice, I think that's the most important thing,
Hannah Witton
Just like owning that
Ruby Rare
Because it's totally fine to have no idea what you're doing. And do admit that because then you can have a laugh about it. Or then you can like, talk about it, and hopefully your partner can like, show you what they like, and you know, all that stuff. And then yeah, and have a great time.
Hannah Witton
I love the idea of also taking that approach with any new partner. Just be like, you're a new person with a different body that I've never encountered before. I don't know what I'm doing. Teach me your ways.
Hannah Witton
Also, another thing. One thing that I've said to quite a few friends who started sleeping with women after I had started sleeping with women, which I don't think this applies, this is going to feel right for everyone. But it was really helpful for me to just remind my friends that like all genitals are far more similar than you think they are. When you when you're like, up close and personal with a penis or a vulva, like actually, they're really not that different. So for me, it's but it was quite useful being like, ya know, like, one's a bit more pokey, one's a bit more squidgy, but really, they're not that different. So don't look at it as this like foreign alien being that you don't understand. Like, it's just a genital
Hannah Witton
Yeah, treat it with the same love and kindness.
Ruby Rare
Exactly. And then it will it will treat you back with that kindness as well.
Hannah Witton
I love that. I wanted to move on slightly. We've got lots more questions from people like specifically about different sex acts, but you are like a nudity queen on Instagram.
Ruby Rare
I mean, sadly, Instagram won't let me be as naked as I'd like to be.
Hannah Witton
That's true, unfortunately. And I'm really big on trying to, kind of, tell people how nudity isn't inherently a sexual thing. And I just wanted to chat with you about like, why you love nudity so much and like your relationship with being naked? Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, what a nice question. I mean, I, I really, really like being naked. I, one of my best friends, Rosie and I, run a body positive life drawing class called Body Loves Sketch Club. Which if you ever want to come to, you totally should
Ruby Rare
Yeah, we've been doing when we're doing virtual ones and they're really lovely. But that is a class where you can pose if you'd like to, and that can be nude, or clothed, or somewhere in between. Rosie and I are running around naked all the time, just because both of us, we really connected in loving being naked and that being like a non sexual, fully joyous thing. And that through life drawing spaces, and life modelling, and teaching life during classes, it had a really like, positive transformational impact on our body image. So I kind of carried that with me a lot and I just think it's fun. I just enjoy being naked. I like the way that it feels. Like, I like clothes, but really my ideal outfit, if it's warm enough, is fully naked, but then also like fully accessorised. Like, big earrings, jewellery, bag, nails, like shoes, maybe like a peignoir. I collect em, like vintage negligee, a like a peignoir
Hannah Witton
Ooo you've been doing virtual ones
Hannah Witton
Love that
Ruby Rare
Like a seethrough, overcoat things. Like, that's my perfect outfit, because I really like my skin being my outfit. Like it makes me happy. And it's such a pure form of delights that were really taught to shut down. Like you look at little kids and they love being, like a lot of kids, love being naked and like running around on the beach or like get home and just want to like take their clothes off all the time. My friends kids, like, used to do that but before they got home, just in the middle of the supermarket. They're like, I want to be naked now, everyone has to deal with it. And that's like a joy that we, we lose as we grow up a lot of the time, because society tells us that that's not the right way to be. And I, like, talking about sex all the time, a lot of the stuff I do is about sex and is linked to that. But I really hope that the way I am kind of naked on the internet doesn't feel like a super sexy thing. It's just me being like fun and playful, and enjoying my body. And there's still such a stigma, like, I am not a fat person, I would be like, very, very happy if I was, but I'm a kind of like, medium, size, medium ish size, like chubby person. And even that, like even my body is kind of seen as a taboo body, which is just ridiculous. So like the more silly, happy bodies that we see, of all like variations, the better
Hannah Witton
Because I think I actually found your Instagram when it got taken down.
Ruby Rare
Oh, yeah, that was. That was such a weird time
Hannah Witton
Like last year sometime
Ruby Rare
Yeah, I can't remember exactly. It was like maybe about 18 months ago, that was mad because I and it's so weird, because actually, that was when I had a real like, bump up in following like that, because I think the
Hannah Witton
The fact people were talking about it
Ruby Rare
It got spoken about a lot. So it's weird, because I would have loved to have not had that as a really horrible, stressful experience. But it actually helped in a way. I mean, let's not say that to Instagram, because I'd like that to not happen again
Hannah Witton
Hey, Instagram, please cause more controversy with your terrible decisions.
Hannah Witton
It was just so weird, because, you know, I there was no evidence, there was no conversation with Instagram about why that decision was made. I had been like naked on there, but always like covering up the right bits that Instagram don't want to be on its site. So it's been hard. I've definitely felt like, I love the sex positive and body positive and queer communities on Instagram. But I really resent us having to exist on such a sex negative platform.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Ruby Rare
Because it's hard. Like, especially all the stuff that happened with CurvyNyome earlier this year. Like, it's just really weird that so many of us rely on that space for like comfort and education, and some of us for like, a part of our income. And yet the space feels like it's out to get us. And that's not even talking, like we're all talking about it as "Internet People", but like, my sex worker friends have it in like a completely different way that is so much more complicated and so much more fraught,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the amount of platforms that aren't welcoming.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I just want someone with loads of money, whose like a really good egg, to make a genuinely sex positive platform. It's that too much to ask?
Hannah Witton
I know. And then it's like, also one that people will like use, so that there will be people there to kind of like engage with the content that's being made. It's so difficult, because I get a lot of that as well, where it's like, well, you know, why don't you use a different platform? It's like, unfortunately, in order to get a lot of these messages to the people, you have to go to where the people are.
Ruby Rare
Exactly. And it's I still haven't watched and what's it called, like, The Social Dilemma.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, I haven't either.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, my partener watched it the other day, and was like, you're really not gonna like this Ruby. And I knew, like, there's a reason I've been putting it off. And like, it was interesting, because Alex has watched it and was then saying, like, Oh, I didn't realise how bad it was, and like, maybe I shouldn't be on the internet anymore. Maybe it's not ethical for me to be on social media. But I had to remind them that like, them not being on social media changes nothing for anyone other than themselves.
Hannah Witton
So true, yeah
Ruby Rare
It's such a huge like, on like wild beasts that none of us actually have a say in how this works as individuals, which I know is very pessimistic, I should try and like, make it slightly better. Oh God, it's bleak, isn't it?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, when you start going down that rabbit hole, you just like,
Ruby Rare
You know what,that's why it's so nice. Like, obviously, I feel so lucky. And I love the fact that I'm an author. And the fact that I have a book out is just wild, in the most wonderful way. That's also a really important thing for me thinking about how messed up the internet can be, and social media spaces can be. It's really nice to exist, to know that I exist somewhere offline.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, that's Yeah, that's a nice way of thinking about it as well. So true. I wanted to ask you about another thing that you love talking about on social media. Jelly.
Ruby Rare
And this is gonna be yes, jelly! Let's, I, there is an empty jelly packet on my desk that I'm looking at right now. After I had lunch I had a little like, you know, those jellies which have like little orange pieces in it.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Ruby Rare
I had one of them. Yeah, I really
Hannah Witton
Tell us about your love for jelly.
Ruby Rare
I just, I really love jelly. And I really love how enthusiastic the internet has been for my love of jelly, even though most people don't get it, but everyone is like, really into the fact that it's a thing.
Hannah Witton
I think, because you talk about it with such enthusiasm, and it's so clear that it like, makes you happy in like, a joyous way, maybe in all sort of sexual way. And people are just like here for someone being happy and enthusiastic about something.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, I hope so. That's the way it comes, like I that's the way I want it to come across. So I hope that that is what it happens. Yeah, and it's kind of a mix of both to be honest. Like I've always, I've always loved jelly. I don't know if there's a person, especially as a child, who like didn't think it was a cool thing to eat. I just, I still think it's like, delightfully aesthetically pleasing, and I love the way it moves, and I love eating it. And then it was a few years ago that I, I don't know if I like realised as much as I just gave myself permission to like, think of it as something that could be sexy. Like, I really like jelly. Oh, wait, I really like jelly. Oh, wait, jelly's like kind of hot.
Hannah Witton
Maybe I could incorporate this.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, and it's, you know, it's just this this really nice, joyful aspect of my sexuality. And I don't know, I I tend to say that I kind of like lovingly say that it's a fetish. And I don't know, I know, that's probably not the absolute correct terminology. Because like a fetish is generally seen as something that like someone needs to have all the time, in a sexual scenario.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, my understanding is that if you have a fetish for something, that thing has to be present in order for you to kind of like have sexual satisfaction.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, but I know lots of people who have who used the word fetish, when it doesn't need to be there all the time.
Hannah Witton
Kink? Maybe there's a crossover with kink?
Ruby Rare
Yeah, it all comes under the kink like umbrella. But yeah, it's something that is, like a welcome aspects to my sexuality. But it's not like, the, I was about to say it's not important. It's very important, but it's not something that like, I can survive sexually without it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ruby Rare
But it's just, just this love. I don't know, it's just made me really happy knowing
Hannah Witton
Has it been welcomed by partners as well?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. And also, like, if you have a kink or fetish, that isn't something that you need to share with everyone in your sex life. Like, there will be some people who might be into it as well, and other people who might not be but are like, hey, I'm so supportive of the fact you love this thing. Like, you have my full support. If I can help in any way, let me know. But this isn't gonna be like, a major thing for me. And I kind of want people to know that that's allowed a bit more. It doesn't mean that you're weird if like someone isn't into something that you're into. And also just like, try and open open up the idea of like, what kinks and fetishes look like for people. Because I think unless you're like in the BDSM kink world, something like this can all feel like really far removed from you and like something that you, is a kind of, you're unable to access or if you are going to access it, you're going to have to like completely transform your bedroom into, like, a dungeon, and yeah, and actually they're really happy in betweens like yeah, I think a lot of people probably have kinks that they are not aware of. And if I can do my bit to like highlight my little, happy, wobbly, weird one, it might help other people be like, do I find that sexy? No, I didn't think I find that sexy, but I find this sexy like yeah, that's a really nice thing that I can aim to do.
Hannah Witton
I think the, the one way that I like relate and understand your, your jelly interest is because if I'm like lying on my back, and I'm naked, my boobs wobble like jelly, so I'm just like, I get it.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, that's such a pleasing, wonderful thing. I think because it's there, tt does have a lot of similarities to the body as well. Yeah, it just I think there's endless fun that can be had with jelly.
Hannah Witton
How do you feel about trifle?
Ruby Rare
Less into trifles, weirdly. Like I'm not I'm not, custard is not my jam. I don't mean to offend anyone within the custard community. I enjoy eating custard, but I actually don't, yeah, I don't think it doesn't mean the same way
Hannah Witton
And that's fine.
Ruby Rare
And that is fine.
Hannah Witton
So I want to dive into some questions that people had on our Instagram.
Ruby Rare
Yes please.
Hannah Witton
And we can both kind of have a bash at these. Is it normal to feel grossed out by the idea of giving blowjobs? And then there was also another question that was somebody who didn't like the idea of somebody licking them out. And, and kind of like having gotten some, bad responses from that, with people thinking that they were weird for that.
Ruby Rare
So yeah, this this stuff is really tough, isn't it? I think when I used to work more with young people, these were questions I would get a lot of the time. And it's again, it just really goes to show I mean, I don't know how old the person is for this, because these are anonymous questions. But like, I think a lot of adults have these worries, as well. And it's just important to remember that. What's the best advice here? I guess, it's separating thinking about what part of this worry have you inherited from society? In terms of what messages have you received about your own body, or other partners, What sex acts deems like normal or okay, in quote, marks, and which ones are wrong, or have some kind of stigma or taboo over them? Yeah, a lot of the time, I think the root of, of this kind of concern stems from the crap that we have been given by like society at large and past generations about what we should and shouldn't be doing with our bodies and having sex. And then, and then addressing that, and then afterwards, if there is genuine like disinterest, or discomfort in someone in either like giving or receiving oral sex, that's completely fine. And you're allowed to not want that as part of your sex life.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just avoid that at the sex buffet
Ruby Rare
But don't feel crap about that being like, I guess, if you know that, that is just a personal preference, and not something that is like a deep shame that you've inherited, it changes it, doesn't it. It's just like, oh, it's not really my thing. Rather than being like, Oh, my God, this awful, terrible thing.
Hannah Witton
And then I was just thinking, there's also this line, that is something that you would navigate personally, and within a relationship of, if the idea of a certain sexual act is just that you don't care about it, like it's not going to turn you on, or it's something that you have, like an aversion to, because there are some things that we're not interested in personally, but we'll do because it will bring pleasure for our partner. And then we kind of get secondary pleasure from giving them pleasure. But obviously, then that that involves kind of understanding within yourself, like, is that something that you would do? Or is it like a really hard no for you, and being able to communicate that with somebody?
Ruby Rare
Yeah, absolutely. And being able to receive that feedback from a partner as well. And knowing, like, I mean, I guess all of this comes down to feeling that you're really able to communicate with a partner because I, I've definitely spoken to people who were like their partner hasn't been into, like, giving oral sex. And like they like the person I've spoken to has been really worried that actually, it's not, they're not taking what they're saying at face value. It's not that they just don't enjoy it. It's me, it's because I, my body is disgusting, and something's wrong with me. And you really want to be in a position where you're able to talk about this properly. And you can, your mind can be set at ease that it's not you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, 100%. Somebody asked, non-weird way's to ask for consent before kissing. This isn't normalised yet. And I so agree.
Ruby Rare
I do too. And I don't think there's anything wrong with looking someone in the eye and saying, I would like to kiss you right now.
Hannah Witton
I find that really hot.
Ruby Rare
Yeah. And I find I find it hot when someone says that to me who I want to kiss. And I also get like, a massive like confidence kick out of saying it to someone else, it makes me feel
Hannah Witton
Oooo yeah,
Ruby Rare
Like we're kind of like, sexy woman in a film noir.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like a bold move.
Ruby Rare
I'd like to kiss you now.
Hannah Witton
Can I kiss you right now? Yeah,
Ruby Rare
I think it's great, and, and also it can be like, particularly when I have dated men and have said that, it's it's sometimes like thrown people off in a way that I actually kind of enjoy, because their expectation is like I'm going to make the move. Or, neither of us is going to make the move and we're just going to kind of like, slowly collide mouths at somepoint. To actually being transparent, and like bursting the bubble, there's something that I find really empowering with that. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Have you seen Honey, I Shrunk Ourselves. It's like the sequel to Honey, I Shrunk the Kids.
Ruby Rare
Now I need to watch that,
Hannah Witton
Oh, I mean it's not as good. But there is this is this scene in it, that I remember watching. I must have been a child, a teenager, I have no idea when that film came out, but I was young. And there's this like, young teenage girl character in it and she has got this major crush on a boy. And they're all in the house together, and they're all hanging out. And this boy that we've established throughout the entire film that she has a major crush on, then goes in just to kiss her, like they're having a conversation and he just like goes into kiss her and she like, pushes him away. And like does she slap him? I can't remember if she slaps him. But she just, she just kind of goes, how dare you just kiss me, you should have at least asked first. And I remember watching this as a kid, just being like, that's a really weird interaction. Because I'd never seen anything like that before. I'd never seen somebody, especially because it's been established that she was really into him.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, like that just is so baffling.
Ruby Rare
Because those those messages should be inherent, like we should just see them. But whereas instead, we see so much stuff in films around like, waiting for someone to make a move. And like, especially in heteronormative settings where like, a woman really wants to be asked out, you know, like, she really wants to go to the prom with this guy. She really wants to go for dinner, like ask this other guy out and a coffee shop, she really wants to get married. And yet, like social rules, tell her, will forbid her from actually asking for that. And instead she's gazing at someone trying to get them to ask her
Hannah Witton
Powerful
Hannah Witton
Like you've got to follow this six step routine and all of these things that you do and don't do.
Ruby Rare
And you know, if that's the way that it ends up, I feel like if I also know that it can be really scary to make that move. Like I've challenged myself before, there have been a few times when I've seen like cute people in cafes, or on the tube. And as soon as I realised I'm going to do this, I get a huge adrenaline rush and like my whole body will shake, like my hands will like really, really, really shake in a kind of embarrassing way. Where I'm like, I'm going to give them a piece of paper with my number on it. And I've done it like maybe four or five times, it, no one has ever got in touch with me, but that's why I've done it. I've just a piece of paper like hey, I think you're really cute. If you want to chat, here's my number.
Hannah Witton
I love it
Ruby Rare
By the way, my name is Ruby.
Hannah Witton
I think I've done that once. And it worked. They texted me. Yeah, it was a waiter at a Pizza Express when I was at uni, and I left my number on the on the bill. And they texted me like 20 minutes later, we ended up never meeting up, we just like texted a few times.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, but you get the adrenaline like
Hannah Witton
It's so good.
Ruby Rare
You don't need it to be, like you don't need that to end in a relationship, or sex or like
Hannah Witton
No, and I've been on the receiving end of it as well, where I was in a Wagamama and
Ruby Rare
What is it with you and chain restaurants, Hannah?
Hannah Witton
I don't know! Just head to chain restaurants and try and pick up waiters, serving people, you know, erm so yeah, no, the waiter. Oh, no, I think the waiter like asked another waiter to like, give me their number, there was a bit of a chain.
Ruby Rare
Okay
Hannah Witton
And I wasn't interested, but I was so flattered. And I remember like, being like, tell them to like, not, like tell them that they shouldn't be deterred from trying this again. I just wanted the rejection to be like, kind and encouraging because I didn't want them to then feel like Oh, I should never do that again, like that was terrible. I wanted to be like no, that was amazing, I think I was in a relationship at the time. So I was just like, wow, that was amazing. I'm just I'm just being monogamous
Ruby Rare
But for me, but that's okay. I think whenever I've done it, it's but like it's made my day because I've left being like, I am so brave. That was so cool of me. To do that, like put myself out there and be really vulnerable and it makes you feel really alive. And then also what my genuine hope, my aim in that is not for someone to get back in touch with me or for like there to be any of the things I said before like as markers of success, but like it's really nice to hopefully think I'm not doing this in a creepy way. So I really hope I've just made this person's day.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ruby Rare
Yeah, maybe, maybe in years to come, I'll come back on this podcast. And then if it's worked, I'll let you know. I would like it to work one time,
Hannah Witton
I'm sure I'm sure it will is, Isn't it a game of numbers? But isn't that what pickup artists say?
Ruby Rare
I don't want to go down that route.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but when if if the moment arises in a lovely way. Okay, so we had another question. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this but I actually, in recently did a webinar that covered this thing. So I have some thoughts myself. But the question comes from somebody who has a penis, and they've said, why does it take me forever to cum during sex, or not at all?
Ruby Rare
Oh, this is a good question. I mean, I'm really curious to hear what you like, what was this webinar you went to?
Hannah Witton
I'm doing a sexuality educator certification. So I'm like, I got tonnes of content to get through. Yeah, my brain has been filled in for all sorts of new information. It's very exciting.
Ruby Rare
That's so fun. That's like true sex nerd heavan.
Hannah Witton
It really is. Do you have any thoughts?
Ruby Rare
So I, well, it's bad that we jumped to conclusions here. But my present, the first thing I presumed was around this person's relationship to porn, and how they have been masturbating with porn in, throughout their lives. Because I think one thing that I hear quite often is, particularly if someone has started masturbating, watching porn at quite an early age, it can do two big things, one mental and one physical. The first is that like, physically, if you're really used to masturbating, and you do it in a way where your hand is gripped, quite firm,
Hannah Witton
The death grip
Ruby Rare
The death grip, and maybe gripped in only one place, like only at the top of like the head of the penis, that does not mimic the feelings that you would get when you're having sex with someone else, either through like hand stuff with someone else's hand, oral sex, or penetrative sex. So if your body is used to that being the sensation that you have when you climax, it can kind of can take some unlearning of that and changing up your own solo sex habits, so that you, yeah, just so that you're more like perceptive, not perceptive, receptive to different types of touch.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a good point to make that it can be learned. And then it can be unlearned. Yeah.
Ruby Rare
And I don't think any of this is like, this is the way that your body is forever, because it's changed so much throughout our lives. Like the way, the sexual things that I enjoyed just physically, five years ago, feel really different to how the things I enjoy now. And in another five years, they'll probably be quite different as well. So we're, our sexuality is not static, it's something that is going to constantly change throughout our lives. So yeah, and then the mental stuff, which is around like, if you're, if you're watching porn, and doing it, particularly in this kind of era of free tube, like porn sites, where there is short clips going on, if you are watching, like lots and lots of different clips, it just it like it's a different thing, your brain is going through something different and is getting a very different dopamine pattern of hits, than if you are with one person and actually maybe taking things at a slightly slower pace. But now I realise, you're the expert. How did I do is that?
Hannah Witton
You did great. I mean, I wouldn't class myself as an expert, I'm literally going to read from my notes because I think this might be useful for some people. So the the talk I attended, the the person giving a talk is a sex therapist and a nurse practitioner, I think within like sexual and mental health. So apparently delayed ejaculation, people who experience this often that they don't experience that problem, roblem is not a great word in this context, but they don't experience it during solo sex. And it can often be caused by unspoken desires, and potentially poor communication with a partner, which could lead to feelings of resentment. So like, they don't know how to please me, like this isn't like it's not, this isn't doing it for me, but it's all kind of internal. It's not being spoken out loud, what they actually want. But then also it could be side effects of medications. So before going down any other routes of kind of like figuring out the first thing to do to kind of be like to rule out if it is a side effect of any medications that you're taking. And then what he said potential treatment is, seems very medical, but it's like to communicate how you like to be touched, sensate focus, which is something that I've literally just learned about and now it's popping up everywhere.
Ruby Rare
I'm doing a bit of this right now.
Hannah Witton
Oh, tell us.
Ruby Rare
Okay, well, it's, it's a new app that I'm trying out, which basically focuses around like, sensate focus is, is like a way, it's a therapeutic tool that often people who are in like speaking therapy to do with sex, it's stuff that they're invited to go away and practice in their own time and then bring back and talk about in a therapy space. So a lot of it is around like to begin with purely like non sexual touch. But then, like, kind of it's a lot of like mindfulness and sex. Yeah, really, from my experience,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's about the sensations. That's why it's like sensate focus. So it's like, really paying attention to what you're feeling in terms of touch, taste, smell what you're seeing, what's the other one? Am I missing one? I don't know.
Ruby Rare
Hearing?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there you go. Hearing, that's the other one. Yeah, so that can be a really great thing to do as well. And then another one was a potential porn break. So you were right, in the what you were saying about porn, like, if that happens to be like, that might not be what the issue is for everyone. But that could be a potential cause of delayed ejaculation. And then also, I loved this suggestion, self stimulation in front of a partner. So like, rather than just telling them how you like to be touched, showing them
Ruby Rare
I like that
Hannah Witton
Which I always found to be very sexy.
Ruby Rare
I think that's really cool. And also, it's just so important that first but that you said of like, if you're, if you're basically like having a conversation with yourself in your head, while you're having sex with a partner, it's going to be a lot harder for you to be in the moment and enjoy that, whether there's like a climax involved in that or not. So yeah, I do think often, I have definitely been in that situation where I am thinking all this stuff. And it just takes up so much of my brain space, when what I would prefer to be doing is like enjoying the sex I'm having.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's, it's something that you have to constantly practice as well, I find that my head can just like go all over the place. Or I start stressing about having an orgasm. And then I'm like, well, this isn't gonna help me then having an orgasm
Ruby Rare
So one thing I do, which I still do a lot of the time, and I have to like be really mindful of, is sometimes when I start having sex or like start making out with a partner, I will, in my mind, kind of predict what is going to happen next. And what I would like to happen next, to the point sometimes of being like, this is what I want to be doing, and I hope that that will mean that I have an orgasm then. And then I'm so fixated on what's going to happen next that I stopped enjoying the moment that I'm in currently. And I think that's me being like, a slight over planner. It's like, do that in your like everyday life Ruby, don't do that in sex, like this is meant to be a fun way to unwind. So yeah, I've had to tell my partners and then if sometimes I'm like, not in the zone, they can be really good. And just be like, hey, I'm here now, remember? Like, don't think about how we're going to be doing in 10 minutes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we're here right now. That's like me and eating food and planning my next meal. I'm like eating lunch being like, what are we having for dinner? Just enjoy your meal, Hannah, just enjoy it. And this was an important question that I wanted to get answered. I believe this is a man who's asking this question. My girlfriend is very sensitive, and it can hurt her during fingering. Is that a thing? Or am I doing something wrong?
Ruby Rare
Oh, good question. I mean, yeah. The, again, thanks so much for asking this question to Hannah and I but the main person, you need to talk to about this as your girlfriend.
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Ruby Rare
Cuz we can answer all the hypotheticals, but she's the person who knows what's going on with her body.
Hannah Witton
Very true
Ruby Rare
So, but yeah, we've I've got like, I've got sex educator suggestions here. Like, please use lots of lube.
Hannah Witton
Yep
Ruby Rare
Lube's really important. And I guess like, when sometimes people can go in and start with fingering stuff like internal stimulation quite early on in sex when it can take people quite a while, particularly people with a vulva/vagina, to warm up a bit. So yeah, you don't you maybe don't want to like dive straight there, when, like your partner's body and mind hasn't got kind of aclimatized into the sexual flow. Yeah, that feels like a nice thing to do. Just like don't rush it as much. I mean, if it's it, we don't know what pain is here. Like this could be an indicator of like, more more intense vaginal pain, which could be like vaginismus, or another kind of health condition that actually is really serious and needs to be looked at and kind of, like that's like a sort of more medical side to go down if it's something and if that's the case, please stop trying to finger your girlfriend. But also, if it's like a, I think I talked about this in the book, yeah I do, around how sensitive people's like external clitoris's are, because some people will want like really direct, really like pinpoint, intense stimulation, directly on there clit. And that feels great. And that's what they love, and other people will, that would actually be really uncomfortable, to the point of being painful if you tried that on them. And so what they want is like, very gentle, soft strokes, like either through the clitoral hood, or even like if someone still is like wearing underwear or clothes like through that. So there's a bit more of a barrier. So yeah, just seeing like, there's not one way to touch your partner, whether that's internal or external, and could just be going a little bit softer.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think also like constant feedback in
Ruby Rare
Yeah, definitely
Hannah Witton
Is a really good one. Especially if you know that when you've tried something before it's not gone as well, or it's like hurt a bit. The next time you try it, you could be like, okay, let's approach this with like, playful curiosity. We'll start slow, like feedback as we go. But like it doesn't have to be this like, it's not unsexy, basically.
Ruby Rare
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And it just being this like, mutual thing between everyone involved, so that like the best outcome possible happens, basically. And yeah, and I think you're right about the term I've heard recently being used is vaginal readiness, which
Ruby Rare
It immediately makes me like, think of a microwave meal. Like, ready in only two minutes.
Hannah Witton
But this has actually been a bit of a game changer for me in terms of like, like, whilst I absolutely love lube, and lube is a great sexual resource. There is also something really powerful about like listening to your body. And if you're a bit dry, that might make things more painful and yes, you can add lube, if you're like, if you mentally feel super aroused, and you're like, why vagina why ? Use lube. But there might also be something where maybe you're dehydrated, right? Drink lot of water, really important, drink lots of water, erm
Ruby Rare
Maybe just need to stop before you have sex and like write a to do list really quickly. Because I sometimes, I honestly feel like a burden of the things I need to do when I finished having sex that like just getting that out of my mind means that like, my brain is like, better equipped for sex than it would be otherwise.
Hannah Witton
And like fully being relaxed, and in the moment. And yeah, the way I've heard it described as it doesn't sound like very sexy to me, but it like has been a bit of a game changer in terms of like, that it is possible for the vagina to get to a point where it literally is like gobbling up whatever is ready to go inside it, it is like I am ready, like a second and like come on in. And that is not always the state that you will be able to get your vagina to, like, I don't always get to that state. But sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. So that kind of like depends on if we use lube or not. But it can be really important, like if you are able to get to that state where your vagina is like gagging for it, for lack of a better word
Ruby Rare
But even in terms of anal play, because you shouldn't really, like when you build up properly and really, really, really take your time, and use a lot of lube, with anal play, it should get to the point where, yeah, like your anus is like sucking something in and inviting something and it shouldn't feel you're pushing something inside. But I hadn't really thought about that in terms of virginal play. And that's yeah, it makes total sense.
Hannah Witton
I found it really helpful in my personal sex life to kind of if I did have like, a sexual experience if we did, like have sex where my vagina was like, in a really good mood, I'm like, okay, what conditions were in place then, that that maybe, like helped that context and like helped it happen. Like, was there the fact that I was really relaxed and like chilled out that day with work stuff was there, the fact that we spent ages making out first like, like, what, what might have been the things that led to that. So that's also something that I've personally been trying to kind of like, clue into a bit more.
Ruby Rare
Oh love that. Yeah, it all goes back to our like, good old sexual best friend Emily Nagoski, like thinking about the context. Which still like, Oh my gosh, your books are great. I hope my books great, but every time I go to Come As You Are, I'm just like, what the hell? How did one person write this? It's just incredible. Like,
Hannah Witton
And also, how had that sex research been around for decades before we got our hands on it.
Ruby Rare
I know. It's like her book has like, lifted, like, just raise the awareness of it so much now. And yeah, I before reading it I genuinely had, like, I'd say I knew maybe like 5% of what was in that book? And as someone who is a professional sex educator, that's outrageous. Like, yeah, this needs to be shouted about all the time. I'm very proud of it. But like, you know, I think it just goes to show how underground a lot of this research is, when it even is done.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think a lot of that research gets disseminated to sex therapists. But then it doesn't reach sex educators.
Ruby Rare
And I find it quite hard. Like whenever I've read like, medical reports, and more therapy minded stuff, I do struggle with that, because I am not a therapist. And it can be written in quite an impenetrable way, even as a sexual health professional. So if it's just if it's someone who like, wants to learn about this in their everyday life, it probably might read as like, even more inaccessible. I just think it's so important that we kind of break down that stuff into like, really bite sized chunks that make sense and make sense to your everyday life.
Hannah Witton
100%. And, yeah, hopefully we're like, aa sex educators, somewhere along that train of like, translating what we know about sex
Ruby Rare
And bring people along down the research path.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just like come along with us! Well, Ruby, thank you so much for joining me and chatting with me. This has been an absolute pleasure.
Ruby Rare
It always is, it's lovely talking to you, Hannah. And thank you so much. It's been really nice. It's so lovely and overwhelming hearing nice things about the book. And there's something particularly special when it's people who you really respect like who I really respect in the industry being like, oh, wow, okay. Hannah likes my book. Alright, that's like a big fuck you to my imposter syndrome. Being like, you're really not allowed to feel insecure if like, if Hannah's if Hannah has given it a thumbs up and like I'm doing okay.
Hannah Witton
You should be seriously really proud of it. It's, It's fantastic.
Ruby Rare
Thanks so much
Hannah Witton
Thoroughly enjoyed and shout out to the illustrator as well, Sofie Birkin
Ruby Rare
She's just the best human in the world. I don't, I it makes me so happy that we, like she's incredibly talented, and I'm also so grateful to Bloomsbury for being so chill about us wanting such sexually explicit illustrations in the book.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I love that some of them are of you
Ruby Rare
I know. I know. There's one in there, that's like a really special one of me. But I'm kind of, I'm waiting for people to like get the books themselves to see where they can spot me because I pop up in a couple of illustrations. But yes, Sofie just like brings it to life. She's incredible.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for listening. And thank you, Ruby. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it. If you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast.