What Women Think About During Sex with Lucy-Anne Holmes
CW: mentions of abuse and forced sex fantasies.
Read the episode shownotes here!
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I was just basically beset by disaster. I couldn't, I couldn't ask for what I wanted, I was just really passive, I found it - I never done - I never asked what I wanted, I couldn't do it I needed a lot of alcohol to, to get naked, I hated my body. So I want - the will was there but I was really, you know, had a lot of issues and so I was writing about them and unpicking them. And what happened, to cut a long story short is I just by exploring my sexuality, I just, you know, I - it was just one of the most transformative life-enhancing experiences I've ever, you know, that's ever happened to me. I feel I found, you know, I got to really find myself as a friend, I got to explore pleasure, but I also really found my power.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies.
Hannah Witton
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to doing it. Since we last spoke, I have turned 29 years old. Yes, happy lockdown birthday to me. But this podcast is not about me. It's about my wonderful guests. And today, I have the incredible Lucy Anne Holmes with me. Lucy is an author and activist. She has written many, many books, mostly romcoms and what the publishing industry likes to call chicklit. She's written a sex memoir, and we talk about all of that, and a new book she's edited, called Women on Top of The World: What Women Think About When They're Having Sex. The book has stories from a 51 different women of all ages from 19 to 74 years old, sharing their experiences with sex and sexuality. We talk about the stories in the book, the gorgeous sensual illustrations with each story, and what Lucy thinks about during sex. Lucy is also on a journey to becoming a sacred sexual priestess and we talk about the connection between spirituality and sexuality. And of course, we answer some of your questions like, is it normal to think about what you're having for dinner during sex?
Quick content warning, before we get into the interview, there are mentions of abuse and forced sex fantasies and we'll leave timestamps for when this is in the shownotes if you want to skip over that part. And this is just a friendly reminder from me to look after yourself.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in our show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @doingitpodcast. And without further ado, here is my conversation with Lucy Anne Holmes.
Welcome to Doing It, Lucy, how are you doing?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I'm really good, thank you, Hannah, how are you doing?
Hannah Witton
I'm not bad, I'm so excited to to like get into this. I've been reading some of the stories from the book that you edited that I think is out now or out tomorrow by the time this podcast episode is coming out. It's, um, by my bed and I like read a few stories every night. It's very comforting.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, I'm so excited, actually, I've never been so excited. I think this is the seventh book I've sort of, you know, written and this is the one I'm most excited about, actually. And I was the most excited to hold this one in my hands, I think because I interviewed 51 women, and they're from all over the world, of all ages, and I asked him this question, you know, what do you think about when you have sex? And, you know, obviously, our interviews were very long and covered a lot more than that. But you know, I just felt it was such an honour to to hear these stories and to collate them in his book and then these amazing international illustrators have responded to this so it's just beautiful collaborative, taboo-breaking, I yeah, I love it. So yeah, I'm excited for it to be out there in the world.
Hannah Witton
It feels like a beautiful collage book, like it needs to go on like a coffee table or like, in a place where if you have guests around, when we're allowed guests around again, somebody could just like pick up and flick through and like see the pictures and then maybe read a few stories. Oh, it'd be a great toilet book.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yes, I think it'd be perfect! I think each story's about 750 words and that's a really good toilet time!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just like, 'cause each story itself is quite short so you can like, yeah, have a little bitesize of like info about what one woman thinks about during sex whilst you're on the loo.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I love it, and when you've got guests they just probably wouldn't be expecting that to be your toilet reading, I really like it.
Hannah Witton
Well, there you go.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
And I also love how it's illustrated because I think there's something about looking at these beautiful illustrations and it's such a sex positive experience, I think, you know. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I think one of my favourite things about the illustrations is like, because the illustration for the story comes after, and so you - I'm - from my perspective, when I'm reading it, I like have my own thoughts about it and then seeing the illustration is like, oh, that's somebody else's interpretation and like what they took out of it as well. So it's like a conversation happening, like, between the pages as well, which is really cool.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Aw, I love you so much. Yes, I think so. Yeah. Great.
Hannah Witton
So I'm curious, like, how did this book come about? And like, how did you find all of these women to interview and tell you all about their sex lives?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Well, it's not my idea, I can't take the credit for this wonderful idea. It's a really great editor at Quercus called Katie Follain and she contacted my agent and just, you know, was like would Lucy consider doing this, and I met with her, and she told me the idea. And I'd already written a memoir about my own sex life called Don't Hold My Head Down, which is, I think, how she'd sort of come across me so she knew I was really comfortable with the subject matter. And I was sort of thinking, oh, gosh, that does sound amazing. But I just didn't know whether I could do it. I was like, I've never done interviews, I've never collated interviews, and like you said, I don't know whether are people going to talk to me about this aspect? Can I hold these, you know, do these conversations> So I did a few sort of sample interviews with friends, just to see, you know, if I'm offered this, you know, do you think, do I think I can do it, and I did the sample interviews, and I just loved it. And then I was like, please offer it to me because I really want to do it and luckily, you know, it was offered to me, and I've just felt so blessed to be given this opportunity to do it, and to, you know, to be to be able to witness and share these women's stories.
And it was quite tricky at times to find the women. I mean, in a way - so there's 51 women, but - and I, it definitely wasn't hard to find 51 women, I could probably have found 51 women from the UK and certain sort of, you know, certain, you know, people I'd say, who have sort of maybe, you know, in kind of, maybe they're working around sexuality, they've explored their sexuality, they, you know, were probably more keen to chat. But it was quite hard to find, you know - it was really important to us that the book, you know, was as diverse as possible and showed, you know, it showed, you know, a lot of different - the youngest woman is 19, the oldest is 74. And, you know, we wanted to be cross- you know, we wanted it to be a big cultural mix across the world, but also, you know, sex looks different for everybody, you know, um, so, you know, we wanted to have different types of relationships that show, you know, there's a non-binary person, there's a trans woman, and then, you know, we really wanted it to, you know, to have a big scope of diversity. So, yeah. And there some - so I did, I did struggle in some - there's some time, you know, I found it very hard. There were a few stories that came in right at the end, and I was getting quite worried that, you know, I wouldn't be able to represent certain people. And I did, I did find it hard - because it's not, not everybody is gonna want to sit and, you know, go into this aspect of themselves, you know, I was really saying, you know, like, take me there, you know, I was basically saying, you know, take, you know, what does sex looks like for you at the moment and can you take me there.
Hannah Witton
Like, no judgement, but it's so hard sometimes, like, like you said, like, it would have been easy for you to find people who already, already have a hobby or making a living, like talking about sex, or like in the sexuality fields, like, they're ready to go, like, myself included, like, I'm like easy, can talk about it. But people who are already talking about sex openly aren't the only people who experience sexuality.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, everybody experiences it to, like, to different extents. And yeah, I, one of the things I do really love is just how, like, different all of the stories are, but also, like, you can see some of them, like, fumbling through it, like, not knowing how to understand what it is that they're experiencing. They're kind of going, "I think about this when I'm having sex, and like, this is what I like, and this happens, but I don't really know what it means and I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to feel about it." And I love that because that's just so true. So many people.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yes, I do. And it's really interesting, because one thing that really struck me is that wherever you are in the world, and that, you know, is echoed from the 19 year old from the UK, who just said, "I don't feel I had any good sex education. You know, I'm learning - I was taught how babies made but I wasn't taught about you know, relationships and sex." And, you know, I felt, you know, she said, "Oh, you know, I got my sex - I wanted to know what BDSM was, and I ended up on some BDSM forums and that's how I learned about consent. That's how I learned about really practical aspects of trying to navigate this part of myself." And, um, but wherever you, wherever women were in the world when I was talking to them, this was reiterated: there was no sex education. And that was often from families, from school, from society, you know, is this, there is this sense that we're just going to brush this thing under the carpet and not talk about it, but we're supposed to suddenly, you know, work out how to do it. You know, there's this wonderful story, this woman, Anita from India. She's 55. And she was so wonderful. But she said, you know, she was she was married at, I think 14, and she'd had sexual abuse prior to that. And she didn't - she was married to a man a lot older than her - and she didn't know that she was supposed to have pleasure. She didn't know there was any anything, you know, that was, that female pleasure was even a thing. And she said, "I got on top of my - I ended up being on top one night, and I got all these feelings. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I had no idea this, I could feel like this."
Lucy-Anne Holmes
There's a sense that against all odds, we somehow find this way to explore this pleasure and yeah, and, and, and I think there's a sense that a tide's turning. What was great with Anita was she was saying, you know, it feels, like, yeah, it feels like it's changing. And, and I look back, and now there's these, you know, this younger generation of women, talking about this far more openly. So you definitely feel what I think is a sense of a real reclamation, a sense of a tide turning, and a reclamation of female pleasure, of female power.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely. It's women telling their own stories about their own sexualities. And like you said, kind of discovering it for themselves, because everybody else failed to provide that education. It's wild to me, because we teach babies how to walk, talk, go to the toilet, eat. And yet, we don't teach them like how to talk about sex or relationships, or like what it is, do that kind of stuff, like how your body feels good.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Exactly. And it's, and then I think that's sort of quite hard. Because a lot of the stories of the younger women, there's this real sense that, you know, a lot of the thoughts around sex are am I doing it right? Do I smell wrong? Do I look weird? You know, there's this sense of like, this, this idea that, you know, you - a body could be wrong, or that something you're doing could be wrong. And, and I think what's nice is actually as the book is done in sort of age order, so you get, you get, what I love is this sense of the fuck its get louder as the women get older.
Hannah Witton
I'm like, in the middle of the book, so I'm like, waiting to get to that stage.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I love it. So you get these women in their 50s, like post-menopausal, and they're like, right, so that's when you get like women who are really going like big into their Tantra, or this woman is so into BDSM. And they're just like, this is, this is what I want, you know, and, and there's quite an unashamedness about that, which I really love. I really love that.
Hannah Witton
I love that. I, I hadn't noticed that it was going up in age. I wonder why. I didn't, I just hadn't even noticed that. But now I'm gonna obviously see it as I keep going through. I can't wait to get to the older people. The silver sex as they call it.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I like it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've just heard that for you throw it around. Yeah, I like it a lot. Okay, so you interviewed a lot of people about what they think about during sex. And so I kind of have to throw it at you: what do you think about during sex?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I love that you've asked this. It's so funny because I was interviewing for, you know, a year really and working on spec for a year and then no one asked me it. And I've obviously been really thinking about it. And then I just got asked on a little like, you know, on a Facebook group, wow, I can't I believe no one's asked me that. And now you're asking me on a podcast.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I wanna know.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yes. So I have - they're kind of - my thoughts are sort of about, they're kind of in a few different categories, I think. So I've been with my partner now for six - we've got a five year old, but I got pregnant very quickly so we've been together over six years, maybe six and a half years, maybe. And so we're in that, you know, it's a kind of, you know, longer term relationship and how to make sex work in that, in that way. And obviously, sex at first is relatively easy, because you can't keep your hands off each other, and then how do you keep that aliveness there with this, you know, with sexuality, especially when you're both tired, and you're bringing up children, etc?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
So my thoughts tend to be - but we're both you know, I really love sex. And that's kind of you know, and we're both quite into it. So, we are quite good at that. But once - one thing I noticed that I think of in particular the beginning sometimes is, I have thoughts that are like, am I, am i into it? Is he into it? Is this going through the motions? And -
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I have a little bit of that and then what I do and then if I feel that maybe I'm - because I think we're so in the mind, you know, this is just like this Western thing, you know, busy lives, lots of you know, stuff coming at us and we tend to kind of live in our minds and in our thoughts, dreams. And what I love about sex is this opportunity to get into the body and just let the body kind of, you know, do what it wants to do and listen to the wisdom of the body. But sometimes you have to, I have to kind of, you know, I've been stomping around in my mind all day so I have to get into my, I have to sort of allow that to happen. So one thing I find that I've noticed I started doing, it's really helpful, is if I think I'm in those thoughts - because if I'm in those thoughts I can block sex really, because I love really not being in thoughts with sex, I love just being in the flow of my body. And my breath. That's, that's where it really works for me and that's where the body kind of just starts leading it. And so if I notice that I'm having these thoughts a bit like, is he into it, am I into it, those sort of things, then what I really think about doing is I think about opening from my heart to him. And I think I read this in a David Deida book a while ago - I'm not, I'm not that, always that into David Deida but this thing's really stuck with me. And it's - and so I just think about opening to him. And then even opening beyond him like just like opening, opening to that experience.
Hannah Witton
Is it like a visualisation?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, I think it is because I can kind of feel it from my heart. So I just sort of, imagining my heart really opening to him and it takes me away from my thoughts going am I into this, I just go into my heart and there's something really allows me to surrender into it a bit more. So that can happen with my thoughts. I also have - so I try not to be in fantasy really in my - in sex, because I find I can, it can take me to orgasm quite quickly. And then, and what I really love is slow build ups to orgasm, because then I just get those really deep, kind of more vaginal orgasms. If I go into fantasy, it becomes a bit of like a quick clitoral orgasm. And then I um -
Hannah Witton
Can relate.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
One of the women in the book describes it and she's like if I do that, I've blown on the cheap deal. I so get that. So I like to, yeah, to, to not not go into fantasy and not get there so quickly. So just to - but sometimes fantasies do come in, you know, and I - my fantasies tend to involve my partner being with another woman. So it's -
Hannah Witton
Ooh.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I know, so it's as though I'm not me. Maybe he's with another woman or even two other women.
Hannah Witton
Are you in the room? Or are you just like witnessing it in - as a fantasy but in the fantasy you're not there?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Maybe I'm sort of witnessing it? Yeah, I'm sort of witnessing it. So there's a couple of little scenarios, and I'm more witnessing it. But I'm kind of not really there, but sort of witnessing it. And this is something - I'm always really curious as to where those fantasies come from. Because at the start my relationship with my partner, we were more - we were - it was an open relationship, more of an open relationship, and then I fell pregnant and that kind of just sort of before we knew it, you know.
Hannah Witton
Closed it.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, you know, it did really, you know, because normally it's like oh my gosh, you know, for me, it was really, I really went from that being - you know, and I really love the non monogamy, the - what I found with non monogamy is you have to be, you have to be really honest. So the communication is amazing. And actually, I think a lot of times in relationships, you know, we get quite busy and we stop really communicating. And actually non monogamy allows that communication to really be there and that freedom and that kind of aliveness that people feel with their sexuality, with their own power, and then that can kind of come and be quite electric together. That not being said, the other side of it is, you know, which I found when pregnant, was just that oh my gosh, it was just so destabilised and I just really wanted to feel safe with my partner and that we were creating this nest and this and so him going off was just really, I really couldn't handle it. And so I don't know whether - we don't - so it's interesting that I have these, that I have a fantasy, it's always quite aroused me. So my partner's quite - a really good lover so there's a part of me like he is giving pleasure to other women and it's just like, it's just like -
Hannah Witton
Share the joy!
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, to see other women really enjoying themselves and it's great. So, yes, do I think about anything else? Oh yeah. So then I have more practical thoughts like, do I want, do I want a sex toy? Do I want to a - do I want to go on top? Do I want -
Hannah Witton
The managing of the the situation, yeah.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, do I want - oh it'd be nice if he played with my nipples, oh, I'll play with my nipples, oh he's playing with my nipples. Those sort of, those coming in. Do I want a blowjob, do I want to give him a blowjob, you know, sort of a bit like that? I noticed there's a really nice dreamy quality actually when I have them when I'm having sex. So it's more like, oh, do I want do this? Oh.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I still feel like those thoughts are still very much in the moment because they apply to what you're currently doing.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, absolutely. And I find even and I find I do have thoughts like I'm like, oh, is this is this - do I want this now? I'm actually - have we done this and I'm not really ready for this. Do I need to - we need to hold back a bit? So you know, there can be those sort of things as well. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I think it's interesting that you brought up about the fantasies thing as well, because I remember growing up, and the general narrative that people would talk about, in terms of fantasies, was that it was absolutely not acceptable to think about other people or things or have other sexual fantasies whilst you're having sex, or even if you're like masturbating. And if you're not masturbating about your current partner, then that is cheating. That is bad. Like, that's something that I just remember coming, coming across, just like, as an adolescent, and as a young person, like growing up, as well as just like, that was the message I received. And then like, as an adult, when I have fantasies that aren't about my partner, I'm like, this is fine. Why was I like taught otherwise, this i so, that's so weird.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
There's so much policing around sexuality, and you don't realise how strong it is, do you, and then suddenly, like -
Hannah Witton
The policing even goes into our minds. We're not even doing anything. We're just thinking. Yeah, it's wild. And I also wanted to kind of like, go back a bit as well, because you mentioned that you wrote a book about your sex life. And I wondered, like, what made you want to write that? And what was that process? Like, kind of like sharing a sex memoir?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, I know. I know, what, how. Well, I'll tell you what it was -
Hannah Witton
The audacity!
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Why did I do that? Good question. And so what happened is I used to write romcoms. Chicklit. And so I wrote for - years and years ago, I had a blog about my disastrous love life. And through that -
Hannah Witton
That's where all good things start.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
So through that I then got a book deal, a two book deal. And I wrote these, which I thought were just funny, like romcoms and then they were really marketed with like cupcakes on the cover and very chicklit-y so it was kind of an interesting foray into, you know, sort of publishing. So I wrote four of these novels and at the end, I was, I was starting to feel, you know, I kept getting, why've you put a cupcake on the cover, I don't, like, my character's got nothing to do with cupcakes, I've got no relationship to cupcakes, why these pink cupcake-y covers, you know, and I was coming out - and I wanted to write a book at one point about women who'd had an abortion and I was told I couldn't and I just kept feeling, god, the female experience is so much more interesting than I'm being allowed to portray in these books. Anyway, I'd written four novels, I'd go, done one a year. And I just felt - had this sense that I wanted to be in the world and not, sort of - I had this idea that if I wrote another book, I'd be going underground into this like cave for another year with these voices in my head. And I was like, no, I want to be in the world. And I ended up writing a blog and the blog was called How to Start a Sexual Revolution. And I just found - I basically had an epiphany one night watching porn.
Hannah Witton
Ah, amazing. I wonder how many people have epiphanies watching porn.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
And it's just, it was just, you know, I was just on a big free porn site and there was like, you know, in that way, where you're going, like, what do I want to look at, and there's always - it's a bit like real shopping, isn't it, it takes you a long time to find that you really want to look at, and there was just this image, just this thumbnail image of this, uh, I'll say she's a girl because she looked like a girl and she was having semen squirted in her face. And that wasn't anything unusual, but it was just how young she looked. And I just found myself really like, you know, I sort of closed my computer down for a bit and I was just like, oh, god, I hope she's all right, you know? And then it really started me thinking, you know, I've had these amazing - you know, I love those, you know, before you go to have a little wank you have these great like stirrings, that sort of physical like oh these lovely feelings. And what did I do? I took them to a laptop and then now suddenly, I'm worried about somebody I've never met and it just was just, just really got me thinking that night, and I started typing loads of things into Google, like good sex and great sex.
The thing I remember typing is beautiful sex and I typed in beautiful sex and on the first page of Google was just like things like, I was offered things like films to watch like Daddy loves to hate fuck daughter, you know, really, you know, just sort of I was like wow, this is the first page of Google. Generally if you if you type in beautiful conservatory or beautiful castle, you get something we all think is quite nice, but you type in beautiful sex and, you know, the results were like, you know, quite dark and there was, um, there was a picture - there was a video of a woman giving a guy a blowjob while he pushed her head down and this advert shag a slapper was flashing and I was really like, wow. And I just remember thinking what have we done to sex and I kept thinking about my young nieces sort of curious about their sexual awakening turning on porn and just seeing this, you know, typing in beautiful sex and getting this and just really got me thinking so I started, yeah. Well, and then I thought, Well, Lucy, you're hardly raising sex to some divine art form here, sat masturbating to online pornography. And I was like okay, fair point, you know, and then I thought, what do you want to explore when it comes to sex? And that was a really, you know, kind of like transformative question because I'd never asked myself. I was in my 30s and I'd never asked myself what I really wanted to experience when it came to sex. So I made a big list. And I was like, right, I'm a sexual pioneer, I'm gonna go and explore these things, but -
Hannah Witton
I love lists.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, me too, but I was just basically beset by disaster. I couldn't, I couldn't ask for what I wanted, I was just really passive, I found it - never done - never asked for what I wanted, I couldn't do it. I needed a lot of alcohol to, to get naked. I hated my body. So I want - the will was there but I was really, you know, had a lot of issues. And so I was writing about them and unpicking them. And what happened, to cut a long story short, is I just - by exploring my sexuality, I just, you know, I, it was just one of the most transformative life enhancing experiences I've ever, you know, that's ever happened to me. I feel I found, you know, I got to really find myself as a friend, I got to explore pleasure but I also really found my power. And it was just such a - and then so finally answering the story, so when my editor, my agent at the time was like Lucy, we need to get you another book deal, let's think about some stories to write. When you're writing chicklit romcom stories, you're looking at a character who goes off on an adventure of discovery.
Hannah Witton
A journey.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
And is ultimately changed at the end for the better. And I was like, well, I've been on this journey that was really amazing, can I, can I write it? And so I just I felt that for me, it was such a transformative journey and I just thought, I wonder if I write it, whether it will - you know, you just sort of think well, if that, if that changes, you know, if someone's feeling small about themselves or, you know, this book might or hearing my story might, you know, might support somebody else on their journey. So that was kind of the reason for writing it. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that. I love - I didn't know about that history of it, of your sexual awakening. That's brilliant. And I also wanted to ask you, because in your like bio, you're training to become a sacred sexual priestess.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I know.
Hannah Witton
And I have so many questions. What is it? How were you even introduced to it and what like, what appealed about it to you that made you want to train to become one. Just all of the questions.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah. So what is it? This is quite tricky, actually. So I would say a sacred sexual priestess is somebody who connects to goddess, to a particular goddess or to various goddesses, through ritual and ceremony and prayer in whatever form that takes for her. And then also -
Hannah Witton
Is it related to a specific religion? Or is it just kind of spirituality in general?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Well, so I'm, I connect with a goddess called Rhiannon, who is a Celtic goddess. So in and - she is, so there's an Avalonian tradition. So there's quite a kind of like a, a new, a sort of remembering or a revisioning of kind of more of the Celtic pagan religions, I would say. And there's an Avalonian tradition of Goddess worship, and celebration, really. And the goddess that I'm really connected with is Rhiannon, and she is Goddess of love and sacred sexuality. So in a way, if I look back, it's not surprising that I was called to her. But the reason I came across it was because I was at a festival. And I was heavily pregnant, actually. And in that weird way you do, I'd lost my partner, and I found myself in a marquee, really full, with this music playing and there was this woman, like long blonde hair, really charismatic woman, in with a microphone, speaking, and we were kind of moving, she was getting us to move and then it moved into a visualisation. And to this day, I don't remember what the visualisation was or what she said. But it was amazing. And at the end like, we'd all, we were in like groups, and there was like a group of four of us, there was a man of my feet in tears. It was just like -at the end of it, I just had this like, really clear thought: this is what I want to do and this is who I want to work with, meaning the woman.
Anyway, then I went off to have a baby, blah, blah, blah, but I've got a flyer of hers anyway, and I looked her up online, and I saw that she did these priestess trainings, there was nothing else, that's what she did, she did these priestess trainings in Glastonbury and I was like, whoa, that's a bit out there. And I was like, I'm known for a bit of the woowoo but this is just taking it to the next level. So I sat on it for a few years and then it got to the point where I was saying to my partner, so you remember I did that, that workshop thing at that festival? And I was like, I can't stop looking at this woman's website. And I'd be like, literally, I found myself, when you're just looking at it, like, I'm like, I've checked her website three times a day. I don't know what I'm expecting to find on it, but I'm reading up about the sacred sexual priestess thing. And if I think about it, this is - this is talking to me. Do I - do I do it? Do I do it? And I thought, you know, we've got a kid, it means me going to Glastonbury loads of weekends over the year, it's a financial, you know, there's a financial consideration there. So I spoke to my partner about it. And he's amazing. He was just like, yeah, do it. And that meant that he was left with children and yeah, he was like, god, if it's really talking to you, go on. So yes, that's how it - I was just called like that. And I wasn't really thinking about it. And I didn't know much about the kind of Goddess priestess traditions, I was just called to this teacher and I just thought, there's gonna be something here for me. And actually, the first year of training is, it's really about self development, really, it's about just going into your stuff. And the Goddess - so the goddess tradition is really beautiful. You might have heard about maiden, mother, crone; these are the aspects of the goddess?
Hannah Witton
I think so. But, but also those words remind me of Game of Thrones.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I haven't seen Game of Thrones.
Hannah Witton
It's like one of the religions, there's like seven aspects of the gods. And like, one of them is a maid, one of them is a crone. I don't know. But it probably, you know, it's taken from like, yeah.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah. So you explore aspects of the goddess, but they represent also aspects of a woman's life. And also everything is very cyclical. So it can be seasons of the year as well. It can be menstrual cycles. It's very kind of, yeah, there's, so you know, if you think so the aspects would be maiden, wild maiden, is the first, then pathfinder, then lover, mermaid, mother -
Hannah Witton
Ooh.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
- yeah, queen, crone, and another: soul song singer. So basically, you explore these different aspects and look at your own life really, and I think a lot of it really is looking at where you're - at how patriarchy has worked on you, in a way, this is what I think of a lot of it is really, to how you're not kind of looking at a bit of your shadows or where you might not be showing up in your power as a woman really, or really, like, yeah, feeling your true essence and really kind of being you know, who you feel you truly are. It's really hard to explain all this so it's really good that you've asked me to do it. So hope I'm making some kind of sense. I had this amazing year, first year, of just really exploring a lot about myself. But then also doing a lot of quite more sort of some really beautiful devotional practices, in circle with other women, and some of them will sound quite out there. But they were so beautiful. So things like yoni massage, yoni gazing, there was quite a lot of, you know, being, yeah, dance, a lot of, you know, really just sort of learning to really love your body. And, yeah, very, you know, very beautiful work. And then the second year is much more about learning to hold space for other people, you go kind of deeper into devotional practices, but also learning really how to how to hold ceremonies and rituals for other people. And, you know, and actually sort of tapping into what you, you know, how your sacred sexual priestess is gonna is going to work and going to look. So I'm still sort of exploring all that really but for me, it's all about, I just really want to help women - women, particularly, but people - just feel that magic, and particularly around sexuality.
Hannah Witton
Is it kind of like a sex coach? Or is it like a form of sex work? Maybe?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, so I mean, it looks quite different for different people. So some would go more into their sex work area so sort of more yoni massage, lingam massage, possibly that sort of thing. I am more - what I really love, and I'm still, I'm still establishing it and exploring it, so. And I've been doing, you know, I've been holding kind of courses for women around body image, and I want to keep developing these sorts of things. But also, what I'm really liking to do is - for me, and I went to a Catholic convent and so, you know, I was told that sex was sinful. And, you know, I was, the Virgin Mary was, you know, supposed to be your, you know, you know, the woman, sort of Christianity to respect and she was a virgin. You know, it was, there's, the men were the priests. You know, God was a man, it was very much like women couldn't be holy, and couldn't be sexual. So I think for me to explore sexuality that feels sacred, that feels something that's actually rather than a sense of a divine telling me, no, this is wrong, actually, the more I explore my sexuality, there's a divine saying, yeah, this is, you know, this is what you're here for, this is, this is if anything connecting you to a divine rather than a divine telling you that you shouldn't be doing that. So I really love to create opportunities for women to feel that because I think in - because we've had so much religious policing of sexuality, particularly female sexuality, to create spaces where -
Hannah Witton
An antidote to it.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, exactly, where there's this bit of space where you're - and I use a lot of visualisation and meditation. So you get into this really big, kind of like loving, you feel all floaty and lovely vibration. And then you know, we could have had an experience where, and I tend to do - so I would lead it so the women are able to do self, self touch. So I'd probably do this on Zoom, so people can have cameras off and do it. But I'd be leading a visualisation and the women can, you know, explore intimate touch as they go through that, but you're held in kind of a sacred loving space and it can be quite transformative. I hope I've done this justice by explaining it. But I think because of this, you know, because of this sort of religious shaming of sexuality, to create a spiritual place where, no, the female body is divine and sacred, yeah, can be so really transformative and really beautiful.
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
So trying to create those sort of experiences for women, really.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, yeah, thank you for sharing that. It's really interesting. We've got some questions from our followers on Instagram. They've got lots of thoughts, and I'd love to throw them at you. And someone asked, is it normal to think about what you're having for dinner while having sex?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
It's all normal. Yes, yes, yes. There's loads of people find that they think about other things. Yeah. And it's an interesting one. And it might be, you might like to explore that, you know, what, is there something? Do those thoughts come in at a particular time?
Hannah Witton
Are you having sex when you're hungry? And maybe you should eat before?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Exactly. Because it's quite nice. You know, can, you can work up an appetite, and many people said that the thing they like to do after sex is eat. Pizza was particularly popular. But it could be - there was another woman who said that there was certain times where she really disassociated and would started thinking about other things. And she actually, you know, so there might be - is there a time that you're disassociating within the sex act? And then maybe, you know, do you know why that is? Is there something, you know, there? Is there a reason? Is there something that's happened in your past that's causing this act to make you disassociate? So it might be a little, like, personal inquiry to do there with sort of love and curiosity. And but yes, it's perfectly normal. People think about all sorts of things. And definitely food was one.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And on that someone actually asked, what are common things that people think about during sex other than the sex itself? So food is one?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, so I found that, yeah, it, there was a lot of, yeah, I think I mentioned for younger women, it tended to be you know, a - worries about, you know, am I doing this right? And also worrying that, that, particularly in heterosexual relationships, am I taking too long? Is this - do I smell? Am I, am I - yeah, a concern for the other person, you know, and I think one -
Hannah Witton
Like, what is this experience like for them?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah. And, and I, there's this amazing American woman who I spoke to, who I think was 26, and is Rose in the book, and she, you know, she, she was really great with all her - what she - she really took me there into the experience, but there was a lot of, yeah, thinking about what, what, whether he was enjoying it. And at the end, I said, oh, do you ever think about whether you've enjoyed it? And she was like, oh, no, no, I don't, maybe I will next time.
Hannah Witton
God, yeah, I remember reading that one.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I will next time. But it was interesting things. And it depends on what, what part of sex you're talking about. I thought cunnilingus was quite interesting because for a lot of women it's, it's opportunity for them to sit back and receive pleasure and that can be quite loaded for women. Because, you know, often we're told that we're the ones who are supposed to be performing and giving it. So actually, it's really hard. You know, like I said, people are worried about whether they're taking too long, whether he's enjoying it, whether that, you know, whether it's all weird for him. So actually sitting back and receiving pleasure can be quite hard. So there was a lot going on there. A lot of worries about not being able to come, like feeling there was almost a pressure to orgasm and then not orgasming and then - as - so then, and then people's fantasies were very different. And yeah, and then some people worrying that their fantasies are too dark. Yeah, oh, and so many different things.
You know, and then some people you have - like, there was a woman in Colombia, who, she likes to look at, she says, any freckles or anything on my partner's chest, I like to close my eyes and imagine they're stars. Yeah, and then I think she breathes the light of the sun into her. So yeah, there's some, there's, there was some people who like to sort of, you know, play with light and things like that, like breathing in life. And yeah, so there's all different things that people think. And some people are thinking, you know, penetration was quite an interesting one. Because I think, you know, we're told that we sort of, you know, I think men think they have to go for hours, there's this idea that, you know, sex is great because I went for hours. And actually, so many women said, it's my, actually penetration is the least part of sex I enjoy. And I think one woman said seven minutes should be the legal limit. And then I'm like, yeah, so that's, that's quite interesting. That was quite interesting, I think.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And somebody asked, and I think this is something that we all kind of grapple with at some point, like, what does it mean when I often think about scenarios different from what is actually happening? Like, I think we all worry that it's - that it means something maybe bigger than it actually is.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
And then once we worry, we've made it into a thing so we worry more.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
And I think we just all need to be really kind to ourselves, the brain is going to go all over the place. Yeah. I think it was the lady in New Zealand, who she'd had a great. she'd, she's sort of been on quite a journey with her sexuality and she'd been married for quite a while and, and her husband, she was like, yeah, we really have a really great sexual relationship. And they'd had, it was, they'd had some troubles when her children were young. And they'd really found great ways to make sex work again, for them. It was - some really great stories in the book. But she said, yeah, she said, you know, sometimes, sometimes they would have, you know, their, their problem was, is, and this quite often happens in longer term relationships, as she calls it, the 10 o'clock rollover. And she said that really didn't work, because he would, he'd roll over, and you know, and a lot of women said that you get a hand on your bum and roll over in bed, and it's just like, you know, the women are just like, that's really not doing it for me, and it might start to feel a little bit resentful. And so they ended up stopping that, and then what they'll do now is he might, he might go, I'm gonna have a wank, and then she might end up joining him. And she says, you know, I might go into fantasy. And she said, you know, quite often I like two men, she says, and I always tell my husband, he's one of them but he's generally not. So yeah, you know, I think, I think let's just, you know, it's a lovely, it's a lovely part of ourselves to, you know, explore with curiosity and love, but there's no should, you know, I don't think there's a should.
And the more we kind of, I think the more we kind of depress and deny and think, oh, no, we shouldn't think that, then we kind of create things as bigger than maybe then they are. So let's go, I'm thinking this, I wonder why? You know, you know, is this something that I'm wanting to bring into my sex life? You know, and I have some people are like, no, I really like spanking, should I should I, think, you know, should I bring that in and, you know, so there might be, you know, nice little ways to, you know, to bring things in, and I think sometimes people worry that - I know, actually, interesting, it's the same woman in New Zealand, but she said that she used to, she had a very Catholic upbringing. And she said that she used to, I think it was, she used to have a fantasy that she was being raped with a bottle. And she was like, I couldn't, I just couldn't, I couldn't get over why I had this fantasy. And then she said, I've actually been thinking about this recently. And she said, I think it's because it was sex was so sinful, that that was the only way I could have a sexual fantasy and it not be my, and e not be guilty, in a way. Because it was - so yes, I think, you know, the fantasy works. And, you know, it can work in interesting ways. And just Yeah, I just have - I always think with love and curiosity just have a little look, maybe, you know, why you're having that and it might you lead you to a lovely insight.
Hannah Witton
Somebody said to me once, which actually was a really helpful way of framing how I looked at my fantasies and what they meant was, is it the actual act that's happening in the fantasy that is the thing that I want to maybe explore in real life? Like you said, maybe a spanking, like, like a specific thing? Or is it the dynamic of what's going on? And so maybe it's like, not specifically what's happening, but it's the relational dynamic between me and whoever else is in the fantasy that is what is sexually appealing. So yeah, I think that's another interesting thing to kind of, like quiz yourself about.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yes, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
You kind of mentioned this before, when you were talking about your, your personal experience with sex and sexuality, about kind of coming into that, like embodied feeling. And somebody actually asked any links between life factors and people who have embodied sex. And what I kind of think that they mean from this is like, is there any type of person who's like more likely to have embodied sex? Or is it just for everyone, you can you can kind of practice and learn?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
I think so, I mean, I think - I know one woman I spoke to, and she was like she said she had a really, her name's Rihanna. And she, in the, in the book, and she had this in this amazing, like, quite, I think it's quite a long distance love affair, where and she's so embodied in her amazingness of how she's explaining her sexual experiences. But she was saying, you know, people don't have enough time for sexuality, and, you know, every part of the psyche lives in it. And, you know, I think taking time is one way to really become more embodied, because it takes a while actually to switch the brain often and to come into the body. And so, and I think, you know, I know like, you know, sort of sex workers or body workers will talk about movement, breath, and sound so if you can move and make sounds, allow your breath, and you start to come to this more embodied place. And that's, that's really exciting.
But I think, - when life factors and I know, might be taking this question a little bit in the wrong own way, but I do think there are some, you know, and I think motherhood is a big - what I love is the chronological order of the book, but how, you know, motherhood has, you know, it does have a, really quite a big impact on sexuality. And I think that that's something that having been a mom and having kind of, you know, struggled around sexuality and, you know, post birth trauma, and also early motherhood, it's really lovely to hear those stories, and you get, you get, you get it from the women who are right in there, you know, they're right in there, they've got babies, and they are struggling with this aspect of themselves and it's affecting their relationships. And, you know, and I think often women are tired, you know, they're really tired and looking for, and this is this really interesting thing about sex and intimacy. So they might need - and whether we - they might want intimacy, but not necessarily sex, because then they're tired and touched out. And they are, you know, you've got a baby wanting milk, and then a partner wanting sex, and it's just, I just want my body to be mine for a second. Yeah. And from then I can maybe find myself - so I think that's quite a big kind of key time. And again, that takes time, because you got to really come to know your body again, after that. What I love is some of the stories of women who are in that, and then there's stories of women who've gone through that. So there's a bit of a sharing of tools, I think, in the book that I really love. But I do think that that can somehow have an impact of, you know, a, really, of your embodiedness.
I think there's, I think and I think also, sometimes sexual trauma, you know, we can disassociate, and I think how people, you know, that, and again, this is spoken about in the book, because there is, you know, as you'd expect, you know, that, you know, women sharing their stories around sexual trauma and how they have dealt with that, you know. And, you know, one woman is a young Indian woman who's had a lot of incidences, and she said, you know, I used to disassociate and actually, with my last partner, I told him that and, and that's been really great. And actually from telling him that - because she was like, I always used to not to feel what - I didn't want to be the one with lots of baggage, and actually telling him that really allowed me, allowed us to have better sex and me ,and me to disassociate less. So I think, yeah, again, it's all love and curiosity exploring that and, and, you know, communication can feel really hard, but can be really great.
There's a wonderful Russian woman, who she used to think something was wrong with her for years, actually, she thought because she couldn't orgasm, there was something wrong with her. And then she ended up buying a book by Samantha from Sex in the City. And actually hearing that here was this sort of hypersexual woman who struggled around her sexuality, she just felt so liberated to learn that she - there was nothing wrong with her. And she then, you know, really worked on her pleasure. But she then got together with somebody and she said - but she's still really worried about not being able to orgasm - and she said she, one of the bravest things she's ever done is saying to him, I really worry that I can't, you know, I need you to know I don't always orgasm, and I worry about it. So she shared this and - because it is so hard sometimes to share this stuff but actually, when we do it can be - and she said, It was amazing. We had the most amazing conversation because then he told me about this thing that he really liked. And I would never have known had we no, had I not started this conversation. It's really lovely.
Hannah Witton
It opens up doors.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
And so how conversation can helped with that embodiedness as well, because we hold these things in shame. And then we create tension, etc. So sometimes just voicing that shame can just release it slightly.
Hannah Witton
I think with orgasm as well. There's something about voicing that and letting go of the expectation or the pressure to you have an orgasm? And then actually allowing yourself to experience the pleasure without it feeling like it's a means to an end?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Well, Lucy, thank you so much for joining me. This has been such a lovely conversation and I feel like, I don't know, just feeling all good about sexuality and, and everything. And so thank you. Where can people find you online? And what's the name of the book that we've been talking about?
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Yeah, so I'm online on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, Lucy-Anne Holmes. And the book is Women on Top of the World and it's out 25th of February, and you can buy it, I think you can sort of order it. Waterstones, Amazon, if that's your, if you prefer Amazon, and yeah, all sort of major bookshops, I think.
Hannah Witton
Lovely. Well, thank you so much.
Lucy-Anne Holmes
Thank you, Hannah, I love your podcast. It's been so great to be on here.
Hannah Witton
Aw, thank you! And thank you all for listening. Bye!
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it, if you left a rating and a review. You can find shownotes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a Global original podcast