Can You Apply Productivity Strategies to Dating? with Ali Abdaal | Transcript
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Ali Abdaal
I was polling some friends around and asking, right, how many dates should you go on someone even when you're not feeling it? And everyone pretty much said that you've got to go on at least a second date, because you might as well. And so I kind of set, set a little rule for myself, the three date rule, which is that I have to go on at least three dates with someone before, before deciding one way or another about them.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. Today's episode is a bit of a wild card. Because if you know who my guest is, you might be thinking, what's he doing on a podcast about sex and relationships. But it'll all make sense, I promise.
Today, I am joined by Ali Abdaal, who is a doctor and YouTuber, and he makes content about productivity, tech, and living a happy and healthy life. And yes, you're probably still thinking, what has that got to do with the themes of this podcast? We do, in fact, find some crossovers with productivity and dating. But also, this podcast isn't just about interviewing experts or people inside the sex positive community. I think it's also important to share stories of people who are outside of that bubble, which is most people. Everyone has experiences of sexuality, relationships, and dating, even if it is just fantasies of those things, and watching media representations of them and internalised feelings about them. And you do not have to be an expert or part of a movement to experience and feel those things. So this interview with my friend Ali is just that: someone's story. We talk about Ali's journey with dating, and what actually all of the premium offerings through dating apps give you, seeing as Ali is signed up to a lot of them. Does Ali think there's such a thing as being too independent to fit a new partner into an established routine? Can we learn anything from pickup artists? And, where mine and Ali's interests cross over: productivity? Can you apply productivity systems and theories to dating? The parallels we came up with are honestly quite compelling. And of course, I had to ask Ali if he really does have a marriage folder in his email inbox to help him with his quest to find a wife and settle down. No, I am not joking.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And here is my chat with the absolutely wonderful Ali Abdaal. Ali, welcome, pleasure to have you here.
Ali Abdaal
Thank you for having me, Hannah. This is, this is gonna be fun. But also I'm a little bit worried because -
Hannah Witton
Oh, why?
Ali Abdaal
Because you talk about like sex, relationships, and you always have these like really interesting experts on who have a lot to say. Whereas I kind of feel that I'm just some random dude with a very minimalistic dating history.
Hannah Witton
Oh but this is the thing that I -
Ali Abdaal
I'm mostly here to learn from you. So this is good.
Hannah Witton
We can do a bit of that. We can do like a bit of back and forth. But also I really wanted to get you on because even though like most of the content that you make online is not about sex at all, you like occasionally like will talk, like, dip into like your dating thoughts. And you always like pose like interesting questions about it. And I do often have people on this podcast who aren't coming on as an expert, but are coming on as like, hey, this is just my experience, you know, and I think sometimes we can get into the, like, sex ed and, like, sex positive bubble, and you're a voice outside of that.
Ali Abdaal
Oh, excellent. Loads of good stuff, then.
Hannah Witton
Yeah?
Ali Abdaal
'Cause I'm not an expert at all but I would, I would love to learn more about this stuff.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think also, just like, a lot of the people listening also won't be experts. They'll just be people who are like living their lives and just interested in hearing about these topics and just navigating this whole world. And we all have something to offer there, I believe.
Ali Abdaal
Good stuff.
Hannah Witton
So I guess a good place to start would be: where are you currently at with dating?
Ali Abdaal
So I am sort of dating but also not very actively, in that I feel like active dating these days seems to involve actively going on the apps and swiping and talking to people. Whereas I have premium, premium accounts and all the apps so I can see who's liked me, but I haven't, haven't struck up a conversation with anyone in like many, many months. Partly lockdown-related but also partly I feel like - the, the politically correct part of me wants to say that I haven't had the time. But the truth is that the people who swipe on me, I haven't been sufficiently attracted to any of them to warrant initiating a message.
Hannah Witton
But that's honestly like, I think that's fair enough to admit. I'm now really curious, like, what - one, how much did the premium offerings that these apps have cost? And what do they give you? Why did you go for it?
Ali Abdaal
Okay, so the prices always seem to change, but Hinge Premium, I think, is about £60 every few months, every three or four months?
Hannah Witton
Wow. That's quite a lot!
Ali Abdaal
It is quite a lot, it comes up to about 15 quid a month I think. Bumble is similar. And Tinder, I believe, is - they're all more or less around that price point, sort of between 10 to 20 pounds a month.
Hannah Witton
Huh.
Ali Abdaal
I think Bumble, I even went for the lifetime membership, which they were offering for, like, 100 quid for life. And I was like, okay, cool.
Hannah Witton
Put that down.
Ali Abdaal
Why not. Let's consider it an investment. And -
Hannah Witton
And they're just expecting people to be like using their app for life. Well, I guess they do have like, oh, I don't know if they have it for men, but they have like a BFF session for like, female friendships.
Ali Abdaal
Oh, that's a thing as well, yeah, on the men front, like you can set it up in friendship mode.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you do, okay. Men finding men friends!
Ali Abdaal
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Do you - like, what do you get out of them? I'm so curious about these premium offerings. I don't think they existed, or they maybe just started rolling them out when I was still using the apps.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, so the main benefit of the premium offerings is that you can see who has liked you before, like without having to spend ages swiping. To an extent, this is suboptimal because, for example, if you actively do the swiping thing, then the algorithm kind of puts you in front of people who you have - well, if, for example, I were to swipe and come across you and I were to swipe right, you would be more likely to see me given that I've already swiped right on you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because it wants to create matches. Like it actively wants matches, yeah.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. And if you have premium, then the fact that I have liked you, might be - that might make you think, okay, this is interesting, I will give this person a shot, because I know he's already liked me, even though I might not already do that. So that side of things aside, it just lets you see who has liked you. Which if you don't want to spend a lot of time each day just swiping through the app - I consider it kind of a time-saving investment because I'm also into productivity and stuff.
Hannah Witton
Love that. Makes sense. I was expecting that kind of answer from you.
Ali Abdaal
Of course, man, you know, you set your effective hourly rate, and then you realise that this is a no brainer and you just go for it. Maybe this is why I'm still single.
Hannah Witton
Yes but, there is somebody who will be on the same page as you. Multiple people, I'm sure, I'm sure of it. Speaking of your love for productivity, and all of that kind of stuff, do you - because you like, seem to have, like, you know what it is that you're you're doing a lot of the time, you have all of these like systems in place when it comes to your life. Do you ever worry about a potential partner, like, not fitting into your current routine?
Ali Abdaal
Very occasionally. This was something I wanted to talk to you about as well, because -
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, let's go.
Ali Abdaal
- I feel like for me - so for the last two and a half years or so I have had a female housemate. And it was kind of, we live together, there's two of us in the flats. And this has been quite a solid - like, it's, it's the same kind of dynamic that I feel I would want from a relationship in that most of the time we're doing our own thing but then, you know, we'll have dinner together while watching TV and maybe chat a little bit each night. And, and so I wonder to what extent this is actually what long term relationships end up becoming, where you're kind of - 90% of the time you're playing a single player game, but maybe 10% of the time, you're playing, playing cooperatively as it were.
Hannah Witton
I love that. I love that analogy. Because I remember seeing that tweet and just being like, yeah, that's kind of mine and Dan's dynamic. It's, it's an interesting one because I think that obviously every like couple is going to be different. And I think when it comes to somebody that like maybe you're in a romantic or sexual relationship with, there's like an added level of emotional vulnerability and closeness with that person. I don't know, like -
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. I guess so.
Hannah Witton
You, you maybe care more about what they think of you than you would a housemate?
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, I guess you would. So I guess like qualitatively the relationship is different, but the quantitatively in terms of the time you spend physically hanging out, maybe not so much.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then on a weird like, practical note, as well, there's like, obligations when it comes to family. Like, you're not like you're my housemate therefore you have to come to so and so's wedding or so and so's funeral. It's like - but you're my partner so like you have to come with me.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, it seems like a lot of my friends who are in relationships, their weekends are mostly sort of filled with either doing things together which they've actively scheduled or like, hey, we're going to the boy's house for lunch with their parents or we're going to the girl's house - yeah.
Hannah Witton
Pre - pre-lockdown. I relate to that. Like, pre-lockdown if Dan and I were like - I'm the keeper of the calendar in our relationship, that's what I'm called, which is again, feels very video game related. I am the Keeper of the Calendar. But yeah, like pre-lockdown, someone'd be like, oh, let's hang out for the weekend, or like, let's do something one weekend. And I'll be like, yeah, cool. Schedule you in, in two months time, because this weekend is Dan's mum's birthday and then like, the weekend after that, we're doing a thing with my family. And then a weekend after that Dan's best friend, like, it's like, yeah, it fills up. This is not really painting romantic relationships in a great light. I'm like just like just stick to the housemate.
Ali Abdaal
So it's, it sounds like you do have to plan your life around this but, presumably, you don't feel annoyed about the fact that all your weekends are booked up by family obligations? Or is there -
Hannah Witton
No, and it's not just family obligations, it's just like, you might have stuff that you've planned to do with mates as well but there's like two of you that you have to account for. I think you then also spend more intentional time with each other. I know that some housemates are like this. But sometimes, like, If Dan and I have been maybe on single player mode for too long, then we have to intentionally come together and be like, let's hang out and talk to each other this evening.
Ali Abdaal
Okay. And that doesn't feel odd or stilted or anything like that? It's just -
Hannah Witton
No.
Ali Abdaal
- I guess you're just actively making the time and, you know, you actively make the time for the things you care about.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you just start to feel it after a while. You just see this person who you'd like, you're pass - you're like, you're passing in the flat and you're like, not connected with you in a while. Like, I feel like we're just like existing together. But I don't feel like we've connected in any way.
Ali Abdaal
Have you guys got any standing rituals, like a Wednesday night date night or things like that?
Hannah Witton
Um, we - no, we don't have any, like strict rituals like that. But we do have - we like, there's like a greasy spoon cafe that we like to go to on some weekends. Dan enjoys making a roast dinner on Sundays, but not every Sunday. We have different TV shows that we cycle through with our dinner. I don't know, like weird - little stuff like that. Not like massive, like if this doesn't happen, then everything is ruined.
Ali Abdaal
Okay, nice. And I guess when you're with someone romantically for a long time, all of these things, it just becomes part of your default that you're going to think about the other person. Whereas I feel like as a single person, my default is basically the only person I will think about is myself.
Hannah Witton
Yes, I do remember that. And I remember thinking like, oh, like, how do I talk to somebody else into this because like, I'm great. And, like, I like my life. And its someone gonna come in and like, ruin everything that I've got going? Um, but I don't know. It's really interesting how this conversation feels like it's turned to like the practical, like the practical elements and, like, life compatibilities of relationships. But actually, I think they're so underrated sometimes, because of what we see about relationships and dating in the media. It's always like, so romantic, and so glamorised, and I'm just like, you just living with someone and you are dealing with each other's shit a lot of the time, it's like - and by shit, I mean, like, emotional shit. And then sometimes literal shit, like.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, there were two books by Alain de Botton that I read this year, one was called Relationships. And the other one was, How to Think More About Sex. And both of those, and also his other stuff, like the Course of Love, and Essays on Love, are very much like practical, you know, we're gonna argue about what glasses what we're getting from IKEA once we're already married for two years. like, vibe, which you just don't hear about in anything other than his stuff.
Hannah Witton
I really like what he has to say about relationships. It's really like, rings true. I think. How does it hit for you as someone who is single? And you're like, oh - like, when you like hear the kind of like ideas that he has about relationships? Are you like, oh my God, is that how it's supposed to be? Have I been lied to this entire time?
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, I think initially, when I first came across his stuff and the whole idea - I came across the idea of romanticism and how the media and the Disneyfication of romance and how it's a fairly modern construct. At that time, which was a few years ago, it was like, whoa, this is this is a revelation. Now I feel I've drunk his proverbial Kool Aid enough to feel that actually, this is just how relationships are. And now whenever a friend, like any friends of mine, sort of talk about relationships in that romanticism-y kind of fashion, I kind of feel like, come on, guys. You've got to read Alain. You've got to read his stuff.
Hannah Witton
You're, like you're just kidding yourselves.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, but I don't know. Maybe I now skew too, too close to the practical aspect of it, because I really can't imagine having very strong like romantic, I, sort of, in love feelings with anyone. I guess, I guess for me when I was in my first year of university, that was when I first had my first real proper crush on someone.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ali Abdaal
And it was like a friend of mine. And this was, you know, I went to a boys school. And so I didn't really hang out with many girls. And at university was basically the first time I had close female friends. And, you know, there was this girl, and she was like, really pretty. And she was also a medic, and had like, you know, we're at the university, therefore had similar grades -
Hannah Witton
We're on similar life paths!
Ali Abdaal
- exactly, similar life paths, and she was Muslim as well. And so that I, I pretty much fell head over heels in love with her. But it was a very, a very unstable kind of feeling. And there was a lot of anxiety associated with it and it was like -
Hannah Witton
Ooh. We know - I know that too well. I call it - well, I don't just call it this, but I'm recognising it as infatuation.
Ali Abdaal
Yes, that was absolutely it. And I would keep trying to catch her eye in like the dissection room -
Hannah Witton
How romantic!
Ali Abdaal
- and then you know, on days where I would talk to her, I, you know, it would just make my day; on days where we wouldn't speak or wouldn't see each other in lectures or something, I would feel, like, deflated.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, yeah. It's like those dopamine hits that you're getting.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. But then since then, I haven't really - in the last eight years, I've never had even close to that feeling with anyone. And part of me is thinking, okay, maybe that was just me being a hormonal teenager. And maybe it's now no longer possible to have that. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if that feeling is necessary for a romantic relationship to flourish at the start at least. What do you reckon?
Hannah Witton
Well, okay, I don't, I don't want to, like project anything onto you. And also, I'm not a therapist. I'm just a friend who loves talking about these kinds of things. But something that I don't know if you've heard of this before, and it might be worth looking into - it may relate to you, it may not - is aromanticism. I don't know if you've heard that term before.
Ali Abdaal
No. What is that, I'm googling it right now.
Hannah Witton
Have you heard asexuality?
Ali Abdaal
Yes.
Hannah Witton
So it's basically like that, but for romantic attraction. And so it - whereas like asexuality, someone who's asexual experiences a lack of sexual attraction towards others, and someone who's aromantic experiences a lack of romantic attraction towards others. But it's on a spectrum as well. So it's not like you experience romantic attraction, or you don't. It's always a spectrum. But that just that's just a little food for thought. That's not me saying that you are anything. I'm just like, oh, this might be useful for you to read into to see if any of it relates to you.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. Oh, that's very interesting. Wait, so how are we defining romantic attraction?
Hannah Witton
Oh, my goodness, that's actually - I think that, like, is so subjective towards people? How would we define it? I think it's like, if we break it down to like, specific acts, it's like - oh, but so much of it also crosses over with platonic - but it could be like wanting to spend lots of time with someone, wanting that person to, like, be your life partner, like spending your entire life with them. Doing romantic things together is like holding hands, going on dates, being vulnerable, and like opening up to those people. Those are the things that, like, first come to my mind, but I think it's so much broader than that.
Ali Abdaal
Okay, like, as you were saying those things, I was thinking, I'm probably like a one out of 10 on all of those categories. So maybe there is a lot to be said.
Ali Abdaal
Okay, I'm gonna need to do some online quiz or something to find out if I am actually aromantic.
Hannah Witton
We love a good online quiz to figure out how we feel.
Ali Abdaal
Oh, interesting.
Hannah Witton
One thing that I've heard you talk about online and stuff is the friendzone. And you mentioned, like reframing the friendzone. How do you - how do you feel about it? Because I feel like, I don't know. I feel like we've come a long way in our understanding of the friendzone because when I was a teenager at school, it was like, the worst place to be.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. That was also my experience of it when I was in school, that if you were friendzoned by someone that was like the worst thing ever. But then, when I was at university, and the people I was hanging out with were mostly people from similar backgrounds, so other Muslims or other people from Pakistan, so through like the Pakistan society or the Islamic Society. We would talk a lot about like relationships and stuff. And the impression that I got from from everyone was that actually the ideal state of affairs - so as essentially, essentially from these, like conservative religious backgrounds, the objective isn't dating, the objective is marriage. And so it's like, okay, how are you going to find out who you want to marry? And for basically everyone, the fantasy was: I want to be really good friends with someone and then over a period of several years, we realise that actually we're both attracted to one another and then we decide to get married.
Hannah Witton
Which is the experience of a lot of arranged marriages. Not all, obviously, but that can be the experience for some people as well.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like familiarity with someone, and then it like builds attraction over time.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know, a single person whose, whose from this, this sort of background who would have a romantic fantasy that I want to be in a café and I want someone to sweep me off my feet or whatever kind of white people talk about.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love that.
Ali Abdaal
And so like, my, my theory at university, which I voiced to a few close friends, was that: aim for the friendzone because the friendzone is where the magic happens.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Because I mean, friends are often more constant in our lives as well than romantic partners.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And being in the friendzone has nothing to, like devalue, um, but that's like a really good point in terms of like culture as well, of like how you expect relationships to happen. And it kind of goes back to what we were saying before about that, like Hollywoodified version of how relationships happen. There's always a meet cute.
Ali Abdaal
A what?
Hannah Witton
There's always this like - like a meet cute is like the scene in which the couple meets and it'll always kind of be like, cute and, and, like serendipitous, and, and quirky, like, it always has to, it always has to be a story. And you know, has to be a good story. But actually, in real life, oftentimes how people meet is not a good story. It's just like, it's just like, oh, we just knew each other.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and if I think to all of my friends who were from this sort of conservative background, who are in relationships, like 100% of them were through being friends with a person for like, one to two years before both realising that actually, you know, we kind of like each other and therefore, let's, let's like, take this forward.
Hannah Witton
Like the friendship is the test run, it's like, we don't annoy each other, we spend lots of time together, and we really like each other. So this seems good.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, that seems, it seems a lot more ideal than kind of going on a handful of dates with someone and like, I don't know. When you're friends with someone, you kind of, I feel like you let your guard down a bit more, and you see more of what they're like. But, but then in fairness, if you were dating someone for a period of years, you'd probably get a similar picture.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's just about that first impression. I think - I cannot remember who I heard say this, but it was like some, somebody giving, like online dating advice. And they said, always, unless the experience was horrific, always go on a second date. Because first dates tend to be nerve-racking, people like may not be fully relaxed, and you're not going to get like the best version of somebody or yourself on a first date, because of - especially if you're like meeting online. So if there is a second date on the table, even if you're like, I don't know, didn't, didn't really feel it, like just go on it and see what happens. And I was like, that's really interesting advice, because - and that kind of like rings with what you're saying about - just take - these things take time. You're not gonna know, if you're, like, really attracted to somebody or really compatible with someone, just from one day.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, absolutely. Like this, I think it was about last year, when I decided that, you know, I was going to take this dating thing seriously. And I also ran into this issue where I went on a few first dates, and I didn't really feel it with any of them. And then it was, I was kind of, I was, I was pulling some friends around and asking, right, how many days should you go on with someone, you know, even when you're not feeling it? And everyone pretty much said that you've got to go on at least a second date. Because, because you might as well, and a few people were like sometimes it takes even more than that. And so I kind of set set a little rule for myself, the three date rule, which is that I have to go on at least three dates with someone before before deciding one way or another about them.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough. How's that worked out?
Ali Abdaal
Pre-lockdown, it was working out reasonably well. And I was, I was hitting my my three date rule, uh, kind of checklist.
Hannah Witton
Did you feel like on the third date, there was stuff that you learned about the person that made the decision easier than anything that you were able to learn on the first day?
Ali Abdaal
Honestly, no, like, I always - but then, for me, for, for most of these situations, and I'm gonna sound like a really superficial twat here, but like, I just, I just wasn't particularly attracted to them. And I was sort of hoping - because any time I've had crushes on friends in the past, it's actually not been like, oh my god, immediately thinking you're really hot. It's actually been more of a over, over the course of months to years thinking, oh, actually, we really get on and, and now I'm finding you more physically attractive. Whereas I didn't really have that. I feel like you can't really get that kind of experience on like three dates with someone. So, I felt that my sort of first dates feelings were identical to my third date feelings, and I would feel bad like, Oh, well, you know, maybe I should have kind of, like, just said no to them after the first date or whatever. But yeah, that was that.
Hannah Witton
But hey, you went on some nice dates with people hopefully.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. Like it's fairly - o I feel like it's a win win because you know, worst case scenario you hang out with someone, maybe make a friend.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Um, in a video that you made you made a joke but often - do you, do your jokes that you make in your videos go over the heads of like your American audience?
Ali Abdaal
Occasionally, the American audience and like, you know, the, the audience from like, Pakistan and stuff as well.
Hannah Witton
Okay. Not the like, sarcastic, dry British humour audience.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah. It's quite, it's quite funny when people don't get those.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, um, but you, you said, you were like, if you're interested, email me: marriage@aliabduul.com. One, Is that real? And two? Did anyone email you? I wanna know.
Ali Abdaal
Yes, that is real. Let me see. I actually got a large number of emails through that.
Hannah Witton
Ah, love it. When did you decide to create this email address? And was it for lols or in the back of your head you're like, nah, this is serious?
Ali Abdaal
It was semi for lols but also in the back of my head, I was thinking, okay, well, I mean, given that dating and all this stuff feels like a numbers game, why don't I stack the deck in my favour and if someone is, like, you know, find, finds me online and actually has a crush on me and actually wants to, wants to go on a date, then I would theoretically be open to that. So I got the first email I got through this, this address was on the 11th of April this year. And I would very, very occasionally mention it in a video, but actually, in the last kind of 48 hours, it's been 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 - about 23, from different women from around the world, sending photos and little kind of descriptions of themselves.
Hannah Witton
I love it.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, it's great.
Hannah Witton
I'm, well, I'm also just like, you're becoming your own dating agency for yourself.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, man. It's, it's got to be done. The thing that inspired this. - have you ever come across a guy called Tynan?
Hannah Witton
No.
Ali Abdaal
Cool. So you might have heard of the book by Neil Strauss, The Game?
Hannah Witton
Yes. I'm not a fan.
Ali Abdaal
Oh, yes. So Tynan was one of the pickup artists who was featured in this book ,The Game.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so I probably have read - because I've read The Game. So I probably came across him in that book but I just don't remember.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, so his name was Herbal in The Game. And he was -
Ali Abdaal
- he was like, one of the pickup artists that Neil Strauss and his mates were like hanging out with. sSo this guy has been a - what was a pickup artist for a few years. And now he's just sort of become a sort of blogger slash he does podcast. And he's gone away from like, the dating/relationship stuff and now does more content around like entrepreneurship and creativity and this sort of stuff. But interestingly, so he has, he's had like a mailing list of a few tens of thousands of people for several years. And when he turned 30, he apparently did this thing, which he called, like, The Wife Quest, Wife Quest 3000, where he put out a thing on his mailing list being like, look, guys, you - if you've been following my work, you know, the sort of person that I am and if you know someone who you think would get on with me, then tell them to contact me. And if we end up in a relationship, then I will help you tick off any item on your bucket list. And so it was a real incentive for his followers to sort of find people that like, oh, I think, you know, I've got a friend called Sarah and I think you'd really get on. And he said, he met a few people through that. So I -
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Hannah Witton
Just making his email list play Cupid.
Ali Abdaal
Exactly. And that seems like actually, initially, when I heard of it, when I heard about it, I thought, oh, lol, that's just really funny. Why would you do that? And then as I thought about it, I thought that's actually a very reasonable way of getting to know people because now you're allowing your email list of tens of thousands of people from all around the world play Cupid for you. And, who knows, maybe, you know - it's, it's unlimited upside but very capped downside. So.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I - the whole like dating game that kind of like has come out of like apps and then also this, this, strategy as well for people who like have a, have an audience who could go like "help me, I want to find someone". It's - I think it's really, like, interesting and like really, like fun to see the different ways that people are doing this. But also, I'm always so wary of people like thinking about dating as a game, and especially like as a zero sum game because that's not what it is at all.
Ali Abdaal
What do you mean?
Hannah Witton
Well, it is - it's about relationships. It's not about like, oh, if if I win here, then, then someone else loses. Or if somebody else, like, gets the girl then I lost, like, which can often come out of, like, the pickup artist realm. I don't know what that guy is doing now. But I just - yeah, the gamification of dating, whilst I think it can sometimes be really fun, I'm just like, let's just remember that we're all humans, real people. And we're just like building connections with each other.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I'm an absolute hippie, I'm just like -
Ali Abdaal
I think that makes a lot of sense. Like, in the old school pickup, pickup artist stuff. And actually, in a lot of the modern stuff as well, there is very much - it's, it's not really the way to treat people as ends in themselves.
Hannah Witton
No. And it gives you this, like, one size fits all, like, if you just follow these steps. And it's like, true, because of the way that, like, our minds work. Like, a lot of the time, if you follow their steps, maybe you'll get laid, right? But if you follow their steps, you're not going to like build a meaningful connection with somebody and actually know them as a human being and as an individual, because it will work on anyone. So it doesn't matter who the person is. That's kind of like, that's my spiel about pickup artistry.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And that's me being nice.
Ali Abdaal
No, that's entirely fair. That's, uh, like - the way a lot of them respond to that particular accusation is by saying that, look, man, we're not pretending you're going to get a relationship out of this. This is purely a method to get laid.
Hannah Witton
You know, like, if you're, if you're honest about that, if you're just like, this is what I want: fairy play to you. Oh, actually, I wanted to ask you, because I didn't think I have yet. Because you're like, talking about all of these different ways in which you're dating, and you're trying to find somebody to be in a relationship with and like thinking about these things: why? Why do you want to be in a relationship?
Ali Abdaal
Oh, good question. I feel like it would. It's more for like, the long term thing. I feel like, you know, it would be cool to have kids. And it would be nice to have someone to, like, share a life with and grow old with and all that kind of stuff. And, yeah, it just seems like people I know who are single, and they're old, seem more miserable than people I know who are in relationships, and they're old, although there are a lot of people who are in relationships and old and also pretty miserable. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's an interesting one, I'm currently doing this, like online Science of Wellbeing course that like Yale have put up for free. And this is about, it's about married people. I don't know how it stacks up against like, whether you're non-married in a relationship, or if you're single, but marriage - being married doesn't, like, increase your happiness.
Ali Abdaal
Oh, interesting.
Hannah Witton
You get like a peak of happiness, like leading up to getting married and then like a bit after, but then it just kind of like, peters off and it just goes back down to like, whatever your levels of happiness were before you got married.
Ali Abdaal
Interesting. Yeah, I've heard some of the things about having kids as well, where having kids reduces your subjective wellbeing while they're in the house, and then it goes back up to baseline once they leave for college or university or whatever.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God. I mean, I can see that. I'm kind of like, that makes sense in my head.
Hannah Witton
So Ali, some people had questions for you on Instagram.
Ali Abdaal
Oh, no way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, they did. Um, this one, I find that I think you might like, Okay, this person said, is dating an exception to the 2080 rule? First off, please remind me what the 2080 rule is. I've heard this so many times and I cannot remember.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, it's usually called the 80/20 rule. But it's -
Hannah Witton
Oh, they wrote 20/80. Okay. The 80:20 rule.
Ali Abdaal
The 80:20 rule, otherwise known as the Pareto principle, it basically says that 80% of the results will come from 20% of the inputs. And so this is sort of the Marie Kondo minimalismy stuff that you get 80% of value out of 20% of your clothing, you get 80% of value out of 20% of your anything. If we look at our YouTube channels, respectively, 80% of the views probably come from 20% of the videos, you just never know which one it's gonna be and so you have to just keep on pumping content out there.
Hannah Witton
Yes, this is sounding familiar. Okay, so is that - is dating an exception to that?
Ali Abdaal
Um, I'm not sure it is. I feel like it's even a -it's an even greater sort of proof of the rule because most of your relationship points slash value slash whatever you want to call it will come from a very few number of relationships. Like you and Dan, you know, probably have large amounts of relationship capital built up.
Hannah Witton
But like, what are we counting as the metric for input here?
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, I guess -
Hannah Witton
Is input the number of dates you go on? Because then that would count the dates that I went on with Dan at the beginning of our relationship, but then also all of the dates I've previously gone on, or is the input like time spent with the person? Because then obviously, like, Dan... like, what's the metric?
Ali Abdaal
That is interesting. Yeah, I think I think if we're using time or a number of dates with a with - I was thinking 80/20, in terms of the denominator being the different number of people. And actually, you're getting a lot more value from like, what - it's kind of like, if you're an investor in lots of startups, like, if you invest in a hundred startups, one of them will become the next Airbnb, that kind of pays for all of the different experience - all of the bad experiences you might have had over the years.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ali Abdaal
Whereas I think when it comes to relationships, there was a really good quote, which I heard on a Tweet many months ago, that's really stuck with me, which is that it's often not about quality time, it is in fact about quantity time. And I think when it comes to - you know, you and Dan have presumably spent lots of quantity time together, even even if all of it wasn't necessarily quality time, and I think, you know, speaking as a single person, as an armchair expert in relationships, I think the quantity of time you spend together is probably quite important, on top of the fact that some of it is quality time.
Hannah Witton
I, no, I would say that that makes sense to me. That you just have to put in the hours.
Ali Abdaal
Exactly. Yeah. Consistency compounding over a long period of time.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, so maybe dating is also prone to the 10,000 hour rule.
Ali Abdaal
Oh, nice. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Another - I'm just flying, like, bringing some things that you understand and that are your strengths.
Ali Abdaal
Exactly, yeah, thank you for speaking my language here. Sex positivity, what the hell is that? But 10,000 hour rule? Yeah, hit me with that anytime.
Hannah Witton
Do you want to explain the 10,000 hour rule?
Ali Abdaal
So there's actually a lot of controversy around the 10,000 hour rule. The 10,000 hour rule, traditionally, is this idea that to become a world class expert in anything, you have to put in 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. But this was like a, you know, the, I think there was a guy called Anders Ericsson, who talked about that or talked about it in a book. And this, this really was a very tangential point in one of his books. And people kind of took the broad message of the book and then took this idea of the 10,000 rules, and it sort of blew it out of proportion. And actually, it was, it was really looking at like concert violinists that like the world class level as how much practice they were doing. In reality, it probably takes a lot less than 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to get, like, very good at something. But yeah, if you do want to be completely world class at it, then, like, 10,000 hours is a reasonable approximation. But to get pretty good at almost anything, you need a lot less than 10,000 hours.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's like a difference between being a good swimmer and being an Olympian.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, absolutely. There's a world of difference between those two things. And yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I'm actually now thinking of how to apply this to the topics that I cover. Because, because I am constantly hammering on about how important things like communication are but it takes practice. Like we all expect, like, I'll just be given some really great communication tips and then suddenly, like, I'll just absorb those and then I will be a master communicator with my romantic and sexual partners. But it's like, no, you actually just have to put in the practice and be really shit at communication and, like, just at least try and like fumble through it, and have those really awkward and painful conversations like - but I always believe that doing a bad job of it, that trying and like fumbling through together, is always better than no communication at all. But the more you do it... become that world class expert communicator.
Ali Abdaal
Exactly. I guess for things like communication, you actually probably don't need to become a world class communicator, you just need to become, like, sufficiently good that it makes your life better. Which is -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ali Abdaal
Which takes 10,000 hours of practice.
Hannah Witton
I think the difficult thing with that, though, is that every individual will have, like, different communication styles. But one thing that you can learn is like how to adapt and how to - one of my favourite things is like meta communication. So like, communicate about how you communicate.
Ali Abdaal
Interesting.
Hannah Witton
So it's just like, what kinds of communicator are you? Do you prefer face to face? Emails, text, are you phone call person? Do you know, like actually communicate about your communication.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, these are actually really important questions. I feel like I really don't ask them enough because I'm not much of a text messaging-y type person. And the only time I've been on dates in a relationship with someone who is a text messaging-y kind of person, there's always felt like a, ugh, you know, are they expecting me to text them good morning, or like how was your day, like, no, why the hell would I do that?
Hannah Witton
it can I often get interpreted as oh, well, they're not they're not into me. Right?
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
But if you have that upfront conversation about, by the way, this is just something that I do not do. It's like, like not something that, like, I'm ever compelled to really do, like, maybe in an emergency. But if - and then if - it's honestly, I think a lot of relationships is about managing expectations.
Ali Abdaal
Oh. Yeah. So this is partly what led to this, this crisis I was having about this idea of single player versus co-p, cooperative games in relationships. Because I was spending a lot of time with, with, with someone, let's call her Jane, and Jane wanted to, I got the impression that Jane wanted to spend more time together. But after spending an extended amount of time with Jane over a period of about two days, I kind of got a little bit more like, well, I kind of just want to do my own thing right now. And I thought initially, that that meant that I wasn't actually into Jane, because I was thinking that well, you know, when you're in a romantic relationship, surely you should be wanting to spend all moments of every day together. And then afterwards I was speaking to a few friends that were like, maybe it's just you. Maybe like, if you put anyone else in Jane's position, you probably wouldn't want to spend much time with them beyond like 24 to 48 hours in a row.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ali Abdaal
And I thought, yeah. So maybe we also need to communicate our like, you know, how much time we're gonna hang out styles. On top of our how do we communicate styles.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. 100%. And I think one of the downfalls of a lot of relationships is the just assuming what the other person - how they'll communicate, assuming how much time they're going to want to spend with you before they need to, like, retreat into other things that they find fulfilling, or retreat into their introvert states. Like, all of those things are so important to actually learn about the other person rather than just projecting your own stuff onto them. And then when they don't like, when they don't fit into this box that you've made, you're like, well, they don't like me, or we're not suited for each other. It's just like, now just have a conversation.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, this is some -
Hannah Witton
I mean, sometimes you might not be for each other, but.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, this is this is something that my, my brother has started doing. So he's also a massive nerd like me, and has a very minimalistic relationship history but he's been going on, like one or two dates recently, and after the date, he has like a, sort of jokingly, but also seriously, messages them. And they have like a post-date analysis kind of thing by message afterwards.
Hannah Witton
Yes! I love it!
Ali Abdaal
And he said that kind of the day he started doing this was like, oh my God, this is amazing. Like, I could actually communicate with her and we could ask, we could kind of metacommunicate about this, this experience, in a way where we're both sort of treating it as a joke, but also not treating it as a joke to make it less weird.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, what your brother is doing sounds 100% like what Dan and I did at the beginning of our relationship. And also, this does sound like something that would be up your street as well, Ali. But Dan and I basically quizzed each other as if we were interviewing for a job position. So the, the job title was like, boyfriend, girlfriend or whatever, right? And it'd be like, so what, what are your qualifications for this role? And but we would do it so tongue in cheek, you'd be answering it using like job interview language. So it never felt like you were actually addressing your, like, feelings, right? And we just had an absolute giggle doing it but got to really know, like, we'd ask questions like, so where do you see yourself in five years time? Or like, what are your greatest strengths and weaknesses? And it'd be like, you know, when you do the classic, like, do have any questions for me? And they're like, in the, in the interview, it's just like, is there training provided? Or like, or things like, and do I have any colleagues? Or is it, you know, or am I the only one. You know like, Don and I did that the beginning of our relationship, and honestly, I think it it helped us really understand where each other were at, in terms of what we wanted, what we needed and what we were able to provide for the other person.
Ali Abdaal
Damn. That is a fantastic idea.
Hannah Witton
And honestly, like, kudos to your brother for, for doing that as well, because I genuinely - I stand by it. I think it's a great system.
Ali Abdaal
Incredible. So you, in turn would do this kind of fake jokey, but also not jokey, job interview things on your actual dates?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, when we're just like hanging out at home or like something, we'd would just be like so tell me. And even like, even recently, like, because at the time of recording this, it's like the end of 2020. And, you know, we'll turn to each other and be like, so how's this year being in terms of our relationship highs, lows, let's do like a review of how the relationship has gone this year.
Ali Abdaal
Nice. Yeah. And the fact that you're semi not taking it seriously means that it's less weird to do that sort of - that.
Hannah Witton
This like, oh, and you're gonna love this as well, this is again speaking your productivity language: there's less friction and less barrier to entry for doing that. There's so many crossovers. Maybe this is why I love talking about sex and relationships and productivity, because there really is a lot of crossover.
Ali Abdaal
It sounds like we need to do a collab with something called like how to have a productive relationship or something. Different strategies for getting the most out of relationships. And it doesn't need to apply - it doesn't even need to be romantic relationships. I feel like having these sorts of conversations would help a lot of family and friend relationships as well.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I wanted to end on one more question that somebody sent in on Instagram, which I thought was interesting. They said, as a capitalist - I don't know if you identify as a capitalist -
Ali Abdaal
Yes, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Okay. Makes sense for what you, what you do. They've said, how has money and popularity affected your dating experiences slash relationship views? Because money is a huge thing that a lot of people in relationships do not talk about, but it kind of can cause a lot of issues.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, so for me, it really hasn't affected anything at all. As far as I know. Like, on my dating apps and stuff, I'm very open about the fact that I'm a YouTuber, and if people want they can, you know, stalk me and find out how much money I make.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I never let on to it when I was on apps, I just avoided the topic.
Ali Abdaal
Interesting. I feel like, I consulted with a few friends who have been into dating and they said, that YouTuber is more interesting and intriguing, then junior doctor, which is a bit like, you know, dependable and provider-y and all that sort of stuff.
Hannah Witton
Oh, interesting. Maybe when I was on the apps YouTuber was still frowned upon?
Ali Abdaal
Maybe? But no, it's, it',s it's not been any kind of issue at all. And occasionally, people ask me is like, you know, would you be annoyed if someone likes you just because of your money? I'd be like, well, you know, would they be annoyed if I like them just because of their looks? Like, you know, obviously, there's more that goes, that there's more that goes into liking someone. But, you know, if the first thing I'm attracted to their looks, you know, I wouldn't want them to feel bad about that. And so maybe if the first thing they're attracted to me is, I don't know, small amount of fame or the small amount of money that I'm public about, then that's, that's, that's not a big deal for me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think the money stuff for me is just so much around being able to talk about it, because people can feel real awkward about money. And whilst I don't think that means you have to, like, disclose how much money you make with everybody, but like, when you're in a relationship, it can - especially like, with the whole debate around who pays on a date? Sometimes, you know, we want to, especially in like, heterosexual relationships, we want to be like, it should be 50:50. But ultimately, I'm like, it should, it could be 50:50 but also, you could also communicate about how much money and what financial situation you're in and maybe adjust based on that.
Ali Abdaal
Yeah, that seems that seems very practical.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. But people avoid those kinds of conversations. But, as we said, practice makes decent enough.
Ali Abdaal
Oh fantastic quote, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tweet that.
Hannah Witton
Thank you. Credit me please.
Ali Abdaal
Of course, mate, of course.
Hannah Witton
Came up with that now. Well, Ali, thank you so much. I've genuinely really had a lot of fun with this chat. And, and listeners, I hope that you've come away with something from it. And Ali, I also hope that you have too. I have.
Ali Abdaal
I've learned a lot from this, this has been great. I'm gonna start doing this job interview thing. I'm gonna start doing post date retrospectives. And I'm gonna look into aromanticism because it seems like I might be ticking lots of those boxes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, have a look, let me know what you think. Um, and on the job interview thing, also, you could create a job description for your ideal partner. And you can keep that private, that's like for you, so that when you're, when you're meeting people, then you can kind of like look at your job description and be like, do they meet these?
Ali Abdaal
Yes, that is a very good idea. My first thought when you said that was that would make for a great video. But you're right. There are things that probably should be kept private.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, little bit. You can share it with like, your close friends.
Ali Abdaal
Okay. That's a great idea.
Hannah Witton
Share it with me. I wanna see it.
Ali Abdaal
I'll share it with you. I'll send you a message once I put the list together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. Bye.
Ali Abdaal
Bye.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye!
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast.