Queerness, Autism and Fan Fiction with Erin Ekins (Queerly Autistic) | Transcript
CW: abusive relationships and suicide.
Find the shownotes here!
Erin Ekins
I found a study where they did find that autistic people were more likely to identify as some level of not straight, as it were. They also paired that with the fact that the autistic people were far less likely to have actually had like, I think it was just sex in general, but a same sex relationship. Definitely. So they came to the conclusion that because of that kind of these autistic people just think that they're not straight, but actually, their sexual behaviour doesn't play out that and I was like, I don't think that's how sexuality works.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies.
Hi, welcome back to Doing It. How are you? But really, how are you? Have you been to beer gardens and bookshops or still staying mostly inside? Nothing wrong with that. If you do find yourself in a bookshop, though, you should totally ask for a copy of my guest this week's book. Erin Ekins is the author of Queerly Autistic: The Ultimate Guide for LGBTQIA+ Teens on The Spectrum. And in this episode, we talk all about what it's like to be autistic and queer. Before we get into it, content warning for abusive relationships and suicide. Our listeners wellbeing is so important to us so please take care of yourself. We get into all sorts in this episode, Erin's experience of coming out as bisexual and being diagnosed with autism, the hypersexualization of bisexuality teamed with the infantilization of autistic people and what that's all about. We talk about the potential vulnerability of being autistic and risks of abusive relationships, romantic or platonic. We have a good old time chatting about Torchwood and how fandoms and fanfic can be a really great way to explore your sexuality. I discovered a new term queerplatonic, which Erin explained. And Erin also gives advice for people in relationships or friends with autistic people and talks about the current poor state of research into autism. I have such a great chat with Erin, an absolute pleasure. I feel like I learned so much and I really hope that you enjoy this episode. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And without further ado, here is the wonderful Erin Ekins.
Erin, welcome to the show. Welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Erin Ekins
I'm fine. Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Congrats on your book.
Erin Ekins
Thank you. I know, it's getting - it feels very close now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, well, by the time this comes out, it will be out in the world. Queerly Autistic, the book.
Erin Ekins
Yes, I will no longer be annoying people on Twitter by asking them to preorder it, I'll be annoying them by asking them to order it.
Hannah Witton
Buy it, rent it, borrow it, all of those things. So, do you want to do a quick introduction to - I guess yourself, because Queerly Autistic is not just the name of the book, but it's like what you have been writing under and like your social media name as well. So like, who are you? What do you do?
Erin Ekins
So I - well, I started off as a blogger, about three or four years ago. I just wanted a space to write about queer and autistic things as someone who came out as bi when I was 16. And I got my autism diagnosis when I was 23. And I just wanted somewhere to talk about that. And from there I kind of moved on to - I kind of moved on to Twitter. And now I've written a book! It's - yeah, it's been quite a - been quite amazing. It's been sort of the growth on Twitter. So I talk about queer issues and talk about autistic issues separately and together, as well as lots of other things that I'm passionate about. But those are kind of my main areas of interest because I know a lot of people who exist under both umbrellas and it just doesn't get talked about enough. And there's this assumption that if you're autistic, then you're de sexualized or you're childish.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and then there's the assumption that if you're queer, you get hypersexualized a lot of the time so then there's that weird, like, which one is it?
Erin Ekins
I think particularly being a bisexual woman is like: what's more hypersexualized than bisexual woman. But then you add autistic on and it's, it's this weird - it's this weird kind of opposite fetishization that goes on. Because the purity and innocence of autistic people is fetishized in a really weird way as well.
Hannah Witton
Like seen as kind of cute and adorable.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like that's kind of the... like impression I get from a lot of the media that I have seen that, like, represents autistic people. And I feel like I have fallen into the trap of, like, watching stuff and being like, awwwww, you know? Like, I'm like, oh, wait, it's like, why is that my like automatic response? They're just like adult people, like, having relationships. But I'm like, oh, isn't it so cute? And like, maybe not, Hannah. Yeah, that's, that's so true, I hadn't thought about it in that way of like you've got the hypersexualization, and then the like infantilizing at the same time.
Erin Ekins
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Which I guess makes people very confused. Like, which box do I put you in?
Erin Ekins
People get very cross about it. I think the existence of us just makes people very cross because they can't get their heads around it.
Hannah Witton
Just like why? Why don't you fit into a neat box? Into my world? Yeah. Your book is like aimed at teenagers, and I wondered why. Like, is your audience mostly teens or are they adults? Or like what, like, what made you want to focus it on like being kind of like this guide for teens?
Erin Ekins
I'm not 100% sure in terms of what my audience is, say, on Twitter. I do know that I do have teenagers who follow me, who followed me since the beginning. And I know that I've had people contact me who are younger and say that they've learned something from my tweets or my blog. So I kind of - it was, it was sort of looking back on - because I was actually offered - my publisher, I actually got in touch with them at an event, and then pitched a couple of ideas for a book and they picked the one that they liked best. So I had kind of quite a lot of freedom in terms of what did I really, really want to write about. And I think the thing that stuck out to me was that - was that my teenage years were not very nice and I wanted to have something that could make it so that other teenagers didn't have to go through that. And teenagerhood is such a time of trying to figure this stuff out.
Hannah Witton
Such a time!
Erin Ekins
It's such a time. I would not go back. So I thought that's the kind of the ideal audience that would be helped by this kind of thing. But I also wanted it to be something that - that it could be dipped into by parents as well, who were trying to understand these things as well. And I did a lot, you know -
Hannah Witton
I think it almost like lays out like how parents can also explain stuff to their kids as well, like -
Erin Ekins
Yeah, and I think, yeah, we - like having like all the explanations of what different identities that they may have heard of mean, explaining some of the terminology that's used, where it comes from, is very much - it's very much aimed at the teens but I think it would be really helpful for the parents to read as well. And I mean, all of my - I had several friends who acted as sort of initial editors in the book. So they got sent the original Word document and picked it apart for me and they were all kind of adults around my age or older and they actually came out of it saying that they learned something. So-
Hannah Witton
I did!
Erin Ekins
I wanted to have a teen focus, but something that could be accessed by anyone of any age. We just spread all the knowledge. I just wanted to spread the knowledge.
Hannah Witton
One of the things that I learned from it - and you mentioned terminology - was queerplatonic relationships. I'd never heard of that, like classification before. Do you - do you mind sharing what that means?
Erin Ekins
Yes, it's actually one that I've only known about for a couple of years. It's not - I have known a few people who have identified as being in queerplatonic relationships. I often say that Aziraphale and Crowley in Good Omens are the ultimate queerplatonic relationship.
Hannah Witton
I haven't watched it but is that those - that's like the two main characters?
Erin Ekins
The angel and the demon? Yeah. David Tennant and Michael Sheen. So it's, it's a relationship. It's... trying to get my words together. so queerplatonic is - it's a friendship but a friendship that goes kind of deeper than than a friendship and they do more the kinds of things that people in a relationship would do but it's not as far as would be classed a relationship. So for example, they may do things like you know, get married or have a - raise, you know, help raise each other's kids, move in together. So it's quite - it's, it's, I think, still a relatively niche term. But it's - when I found out about it was one that - and I read about some people who were in relationships that were considered queerplatonic - and it was, I was like, this is, this is really, this is lovely. I like this a lot. I feel like having this as an idea could really help people to kind of put - if they want to label to kind of label their own relationships. So yeah, it's it's sort of a disruption of what we - because we think of friendships and romantic relationships as being quite separate.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And there's a hierarchy there as well of like the heterosexual romantic relationship is like, the goal, essentially, but you can have like, these really deep and committed relationships that aren't romantic.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, exactly. So you look at a lot of, sort of - I've seen a lot of like ace and aro - so asexual and aromantic people sort of kind of finding some sort of affinity with the idea of a queer platonic relationship. And that's, you know, and having it on an equal pegging with, like, romantic relationships.
Hannah Witton
I like it. It's, yeah, I like it. So yeah, you mentioned how you like talk about, like queer issues, and autism issues, and then also like, how they come together. And I was wondering, like, for you personally, how does your autism and your bisexuality, like,how do they talk to each other? I guess.
Erin Ekins
I guess, it's quite, it's quite difficult, because obviously, I, I didn't get a diagnosis until I was 23. So I'd been out for seven years when I got my diagnosis. And it was really a strange thing, because it was like you suddenly understand yourself but at the same time, my brain was still the same. And I had no idea what it was like to not have my brain. So I think they, I think they play together, kind of, in quite an interesting way, and sometimes in quite an intense way. I've been, I'm capable of forming very intense relationships, which sometimes are not the healthiest relationships. And, and particularly, that's kind of interplayed when I've been in, in queer spaces, because those are the spaces where as a bisexual woman, who is sometimes feels a bit excluded from queer spaces, I'm very desperate to hold on to people and to find friends. And that can then - coupled with the autism, which means sometimes I struggle with reading people's intentions, can get into some quite manipulative friendships and relationships, which has happened to me. I mean, I've made it sound like there's a negative crossover. But -
Hannah Witton
But I guess it's important to be aware of.
Erin Ekins
Being aware of my own - my own brain. Because obviously, I wouldn't change it, you know, being autistic is, is something that does bring me a lot of joy, just my brain sometimes does bring me a lot of joy, I have a massive capacity to love people and things and, and I like the way my brain doesn't always work the same as everybody else's. But then obviously, it's knowing that there's a - that it does leave me more vulnerable in different areas. And kind of having tools to manage that and deal with that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What are those tools? I guess, like, what would your advice be to someone who's also trying to navigate that?
Erin Ekins
And I would think it's if you - for me, it was a lot of, I didn't know what red flags were. And so for example, when I had a very toxic friendship, the other person would very much isolate me from other people, or would be very ross with me one day, and then come back and say, it's because I have all this hurt, and I'm really sorry, and I love you. And I didn't recognize that as - I didn't recognize that as a red flag. I had kind of no benchmark to kind of put it against so I took it almost as a, oh, this is a really special friendship. Because, you know, they really want to be friends with me. And you know, they're trusting me with all of this and, and that was - it took me years to recognize that, after I'd left that friendship, to realize that it had actually been quite abusive, emotionally abusive, and that I had kind of lingering stuff from that. So I think it's having those red flags laid out. So you know, things like trying to cut you off from everybody, trying to isolate you, hurting you and then being really good at groveling afterwards was a big one. And just, you know, you don't need to be around people who put you down and I didn't - because I was not great at forming friendships and understanding the social dialogue that goes on, I was quite prone to not recognizing when people were being mean to me in a way that wasn't friendly teasing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it makes me think also that these kinds of red flags apply to everyone. And there is such little education about them. And I think like the fact that neurotypical people also find dating a complete puzzle. And then, if neurotypical people are having a hard time, that just means that like people who are autistic are like falling through the cracks. And yeah, and I can totally see why that can be really, really difficult for you, but it's just like, why aren't the education and the resources there? Like, and if we helped people who were neurodivergent, then that's only going to benefit like, everyone.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, I like to say that, you know, if we make things more kind of neurodivergent accessible, or neurodivergent friendly, then the knock on effects of that is only going to be good for everybody. It's - I think that's a - that's a standout takeaway from all kinds of disability activism is, in measures to make something more accessible, generally it makes it more accessible for everybody, even if the most obvious impact is on people with a certain disability. But overall, it's good for everybody.
Hannah Witton
It really is. Because I think of just like, how much of relationships goes unsaid? How much is assumed? How much is just like you're supposed to like pick up hints. And yeah, and that can be difficult to navigate, even if you are neurotypical. So yeah, I'm just like, that can be tough. And you really got to - you really got to lay out what those red flags or what those green flags are as well.
One thing that you talk about in your book is fanfiction. I'd love to talk about how like as part of your story of like realizing you were bi comes from fanfiction because I feel like this is a very common experience.
Erin Ekins
Absolutely. So I've I mean, I started writing - I started writing fanfiction when I was 13.
Hannah Witton
Amazing.
Erin Ekins
And I will say I started writing fanfiction on a Phantom of the Opera forum. Because where else would you start?
Hannah Witton
And you know, it's so erotic already.
Erin Ekins
I mean exactly. And you know, I was 13 I was, you know, the world was confusing and it's very erotic. And so I started writing kind of fanfiction when I was 13. I always knew it as P - having a PH instead of an F because it was Phantom of the Opera fanfic.
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Erin Ekins
Everything got replaced with a PH, including fandom. So that was my introduction. And I did - it was, it was really strange because I did sort of focus on writing these stories and a lot of them were self-insert and I think that's a really important part of learning to write and, and exploring things kind of yourself. And so I mean, fanfiction, like, getting kind of as I got older, and I started like writing more mature fanfiction, my mum would say, oh, that period where you were writing all that porn? And I'm like, yes, the period where I was writing all that porn.
Hannah Witton
I love it. I mean, if you don't see it, write your own porn.
Erin Ekins
Oh, exactly. My - but my main kind of using fanfiction and also kind of the fandom that's associated with it, in terms of kind of understanding myself was actually - I was in Torchwood fandom when Torchwood was a show that was alive.
Hannah Witton
I loved Torchwood.
Erin Ekins
I loved Torchwood so much.
Hannah Witton
That is such a throwback.
Erin Ekins
And I - and I was, I was absolutely obsessed with the Jack and Ianto relationship and I was obsessed with Ianto as a character. I'm like, ah, the one that's quiet in the background, hmm, why would I, why would I affiliate myself with that character? And it was in that fandom and kind of writing fanfiction, there's - I think there's, as a queer woman, there was almost a - I was exploring queerness but in a way that was safe because I'm not a man. So this is nothing to do with me.
Hannah Witton
Mmm, yeah, that's really interesting. You were still inserting queerness into it, but it was - yeah.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, it was like these, I'm writing about two men. And that's, it's almost like a safe distance. So I think that was - that was kind of my introduction to kind of queerness and queer sexuality. And it was really through the fandom as well, because that was an incredibly queer fandom. I mean, a lot of fandoms are but -
Hannah Witton
And it was written by Russell T. Davies, so.
Erin Ekins
I mean, exactly, it such a queer fandom. And it was a lot of, there were a lot of queer women in the fandom and a lot of queer women who were slightly older than me, because I was 16, I was a teenager. And I was really lucky that it was quite a nurturing fandom, in the pockets that I was in. And so I had almost this nurturing group of queer women who were kind of helping me figure things out. And I've kind of, I've stayed friends with, like, ever since. So I think fandom was a huge part. It was through that, you know, talking about how the character of Ianto was bisexual that I then, like, started thinking about bisexuality as a thing, as a concrete thing that happened, you know, writing stuff from his perspective, as someone who was attracted to more than one gender, I was like, oh, this, this is, this is a thing. And -
Hannah Witton
I also just think it's so great that, like, with you, here we have an example of someone who like the media and representation like helped you figure out yourself and like get to know yourself. And, like representation matters.
Erin Ekins
Because I found an old diary of mine a few months ago, found an old diary of mine that I wrote when I was say, I can't remember, 11 or 12, first year of secondary school, and you know, I had this thing, this, this whole freakout on one page where I was going, oh my god, I think I'm gay. Oh my god, I think I'm attracted to my teacher. And then on the very next page, I was like, but how can I be because I like *lists, male celebrities here*. And then kind of looking back, I was like, aw, aw sweet baby, sweet baby Erin.
Hannah Witton
There's a word for that!
Erin Ekins
But it was years before I knew what that word, or understood it. I think, you know, I think there's, there is a lot - I think I know a lot of queer women who figure that stuff out through particularly what we would call like slash shipping, of kind of two fictional men. And then kind of from that is also discovering things like femslash. And, you know, I think - I know a lot of people who've come from that place. And I particularly know that a lot of people that I've interacted with in fandom have ended up being some form of queer and some form of neurodivergent. And so there's, it's very much a crossover there. And I think it's a really kind of a good, good space to kind of explore that.
And, and, obviously, I'm a cis woman so I can't speak to knowing the trans experience, but I have spoken to people and read kind of testimony from people who've said that, you know, headcanoning either the characters as trans or even just writing fiction, fanfiction, from the perspective of a character who is not the same gender as them was almost a way of exploring gender as well. And that's, that's something that I tried to put in the book as well, around, you know, this is an experience I've seen people have. And I know a lot of, I know, I say I know a lot of queer women in in fandom spaces. And I've known quite a few people who've since come out as either as trans men or as some kind of transmasculine identity. So it's a really interesting, interesting kind of crossover, that I feel -
Hannah Witton
I guess it can feel like a bit of a playground to kind of, like, try on different identities and kind of experiment and explore all of that. And it's not having to do it in the real world, I guess.
Erin Ekins
Yes, exactly. And I think kind of when you have kind of social anxiety, which I do know of autistic people do, it's a safer space to do it. And it's a place where you can be a bit more loud and shouty about things. Whereas if you were in a room full of people, maybe you wouldn't be. And just connecting with - I find it easier to connect with fictional characters than real people. That's what it comes down to. I think dogs and fictional characters. There we go.
Hannah Witton
You're like, I understand you.
Erin Ekins
I understand what's going on here. Whereas real people are just complicated.
Hannah Witton
Well, hopefully we can make it easier. One thing that you said in your book, which I knew, but maybe didn't like fully know was that there's a higher percentage of autism - of autistic people are queer, LGBTQ+, than the neurotypical population. Is there any understanding of why that is?
Erin Ekins
No, and I did do a little bit of a dive into this. And I mean, I pulled out of the dive relatively quickly, because I was just finding things that were offending me. So a lot of autism research is done in quite a dehumanizing way, in the way that it talks about autistic people. And there's actually a movement within kind of autistic circles to say, we really need to do something about this. Because it's really difficult for the autistic researchers that do exist because they are being bombarded with this dehumanization. And so staying in the field that they need to be in to change it is - there's a big cycle. For example, I mention in the book that I found a study where they did find that autistic people were more likely to identify as some level of not straight as it were. But then they came - they also paired that with the fact that the autistic people were far less likely to have actually had like, I think it was just sex in general, but a same sex relationship, definitely. So they came to the conclusion that because of that, kind of these autistic people just think that they're not straight, but actually, their sexual behavior doesn't play out that and I was like, I don't think that's how sexuality works.
Hannah Witton
Honestly, it frustrates me that we're like still in a place where we think that sexual orientation and sexual behavior are like the same thing.
Erin Ekins
Exactly. And there was - this same study - I mentioned it in my book, but just because it outraged me so much - was that they came to this conclusion that the reason why a lot of the autistic men that they studied said that they weren't straight was just because they were scared of interacting with women.
Hannah Witton
Augh!
Erin Ekins
You, you've failed on not offending autistic people and not offending queer people, so well done to you.
Hannah Witton
Wow. What a bold conclusion to come to.
Erin Ekins
Very bold. I mean, they did put in, "ooh, maybe it's this sort of", but I think there's been a lot of kind of people looking into it and there's been discussion just amongst the community as well, which is far more interesting to me. I think. I do wonder if it is that more of us are - whether it's because our brains are a little bit different anyway so there's almost more proclivity for it or if it's just something that, you know, we're, you know, we have less of a filter in our brains, I always say, so that, it's, we're more likely to be slightly weird as people would see it anyway, and to maybe more embrace that side of us. I'm not saying that every, you know, non autistic people are closeted, but you know, it's -
Hannah Witton
What a claim.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, and a lot of autistic people have really interesting relationships with their gender as well. I mean, this isn't in the book, because I hadn't actually heard of it when I was writing the book. I have heard of it since, is people identifying as having kind of auto gender, which is that their gender is so intricately kind of tied in with their autism. And that, you know, it's like that the autistic experience of gender is a very unique experience. Because it's, I think we're more likely to be like, okay, this is what society has said, but I don't understand it. And I don't get it. And I don't know why I'm supposed to do this. And I don't know why this is supposed to be the case. And why this makes me this and why this makes me that. Which I think -
Hannah Witton
If only more people are more questioning like that, honestly.
Erin Ekins
I know. It's - I think a lot of people have kind of done work on it. I don't know if we'll ever - I think it might be something like, like, you know, we've had endless people trying to find the gay gene, haven't we? And it's sort of like I'm sitting here like, I mean, you got to give up at some point, haven't you, guys? It's way more complicated than that. And I think, I think it's one of those things where, and I say in the book as well, that it's really interesting to think about why it might be, particularly with sort of trans identities as well and so many autistic people identifying as trans, that, you know that - but what we really should be looking at is is kind of talking to people, actual autistic people, and, you know, coming up with some, you know, things that they need rather than trying to figure out why their brains are like that, rather than, yeah. That's the biggest thing in autism research.
Hannah Witton
It's like the priority is why do you exist? Rather than, like, how can we make your life easier?
Erin Ekins
I mean, that's the story of autism research in general, I mean, they're trying to find reasons why we might be autistic, whereas we're over here going, hello, you know, we're like -
Hannah Witton
"I don't care why!"
Erin Ekins
We're struggling? Like, so many people can't sleep and, and, you know, our lifespan is 15 years, I think it was 15 years, less than an average person's?
Hannah Witton
I did not know that.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, well, we've got much higher - So this is, trigger warning for anybody, around suicide, but we've got - particularly with autistic people who are better at masking, so who are verbal, they're, I mean, we are, we have a far greater likelihood of attempting or committing suicide. So it's the pressure of existing and it as autistic or neurodivergent in any way in a world that doesn't accommodate us is - it takes a big mental toll. And so yeah, I mean, we I mean, it's definitely a big issue in the autistic community, that when someone I know in the autistic community goes offline for a few days, it's worrying, because - and you want people to be looking at how we do something about that and not trying to be like, aas it because there was this amount of hormone in the uterus, when I'm like, this is not helpful to me. This is not helpful to anybody. The only thing it's helpful for is if you're trying to stop us from existing? And I'd rather you didn't do that because, you know, just, we're here, please help us?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What are some things that can help? I guess, like, because obviously, we're talking about, like sexuality and relationships in this context. But what are some things like say, if someone is in a relationship with someone who is autistic, or friends with someone who is autistic, what are some things that they should be aware of? Or like, do to help their friend or their partner? Like, and it be like an easy, breezy, lovely time for everyone?
Erin Ekins
I think, yeah, I think there's, um, there's probably always gonna be a clash and, and obviously, lots of - there's, we have similar experiences but obviously, everybody is different and the access needs are different. I mean, even just things like I think having, I talk about it in the book, but having kind of open communication in, in a structured way, I think is really important. So even it may be having a time that you set aside every night to have have a chat. Even like a structured chat.
Hannah Witton
Love it.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, have an agenda.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my god, yeah, I love having an agenda for my relationship meetings. That's not a joke.
Erin Ekins
I know, right? You know, something like that is really, is really useful. I think being able to pick up on people - on signs that someone is becoming overwhelmed. You know, whether it's outside or it could even be inside if there's maybe, for example, if there's some beeping noise going off in the house, and that would be annoying for anybody, but it can - it can result in absolute breakdown for me. And I think, on a jokey level, a willingness to accept that your partner will talk about the thing that they have an interest in for hours, if you give them the chance.
Hannah Witton
So only ask about their interests if you are ready to -
Erin Ekins
To hear about it.
Hannah Witton
Actually hear about it.
Erin Ekins
Yep. And I think - and, you know, have the space to do that. Because it's really, it's really lovely when you find someone who can listen to you for - I mean, I talked about, I was on a four hour car journey with my mom when I was a teenager and I talked about Torchwood for four hours. I riffed on the same topic, and she was - she didn't tell me to shut up and she was listening and I was very happy. And I think having that you know, just an acknowledgement of that and, and just that your, your partner might not do things in the way that, you know, you're taught that you should do things. I hear the word "cringe" a lot come up with behaviours that I know I have. That is definitely why I was bullied in school because I was "cringy". You know, I've talked a lot, I talk too loudly, you know, I, you know, flap my hands and things. And I think just having someone who just appreciates that side of you as well is really important.
Hannah Witton
The word "cringy" is like a funny one to me because it's describing the experience of the person who's observing, not the person who is being observed.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, I wrote the best quote on tumblr, I mean, I still get good quotes on tumblr, unlike - it's good for some things, which said that cringe culture was almost like, was like crowd sourced ABA, and ABA is applied behavioural analysis therapy, which is a therapy that a lot of autistic kids go through that a lot of autistic people have trauma from as they grow up, because very much it's kind of retraining you like to act in a more neurotypical way, even if it's done nicely. Cringe culture sort of does that on a crowdsourced level because it's, it's, it's sort of -
Hannah Witton
It like socially punishes you for certain behaviours?
Erin Ekins
Yeah. And mocks you and I found it in, on Twitter as well like, that, you know, that people use "oh, this is really cringy" for something that's relatively harmless.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Right. I'm just like, how is this affecting you?
Erin Ekins
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
You're the one experiencing that like, painful cringe. The other person like is just living their life.
Erin Ekins
And you know, what you might see as as immature behaviour or cringy behaviour, just keep it to yourself. And, you know, just, I think having an open dialogue with your partner or your friend about what they need, I think, is - and getting to know who they are - I think that's why the friendships that I have that have lasted the longest, are very much built on I can, if I'm absolutely falling apart, I can come to you. And if I'm absolutely bursting to say something, I can come to you. And sometimes, because a lot of my friends are also autistic or neurodivergent, we kind of- it's like, you know how queer people tend to find each other? The same thing happens. My friendship group that I've built mainly online over the last 10 years has steadily become more queer and more neurodivergent. But it is kind of - and then we can have a period where maybe we don't say anything for a couple of weeks. But then if they come back and immediately want to go into something, that's fine, because we sort of get each other. Yeah. So I think it's a very, it's a very personal. It's a very personal thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely.
Erin Ekins
To be clear, you need to have an open dialogue. And you need to be clear, and just don't assume anything. Because you assume that your partner knows what you're talking about - they might not. Or presume that your partner knows that you're upset -they might, they might not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and we see that play out all the time of like, how could you not tell that I was like, upset or mad at you, like you should have known this? And it's like, mm.
Erin Ekins
It's like, just just say it? Why does it need to be this - we - I've always said that there's, there's kind of what we say and then there's another language underneath and it's like, we can't quite tap into that other language and we're very reliant on you saying what you - you know, just, just say it.
Hannah Witton
Just say it. Yeah, I feel like we're conditioned from birth to really not say what we're actually thinking and feeling. So even for the, like so for the like, neurotypical friend or partner, like actually them retraining their brain to actually voice what is going on, even if at first, it's like, this feels so awkward to actually put words to these emotions. That practice.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
So I've got some questions from people on Instagram. Somebody asked, do you feel welcomed in a large LGBTQ+ community as an autistic person?
Erin Ekins
Sometimes, is the - they're not - not as positive answer as I would like to give. I find a lot of space is quite overwhelming. I've actually found the community a lot more accessible since we've been in lockdown. Having Pride be virtual was amazing. And I know it wasn't ideal for a lot of people, but it was amazing for me.
Hannah Witton
It makes you think that in the future, there needs to be like hybrid kind of events.
Erin Ekins
Absolutely. And, you know, I, for example, I really couldn't handle doing something like going to Pride in London. But my local Pride is much, much smaller and much newer, it's only been going a couple of years. And it's a couple of hundred people and it's a, it's a field with a couple of tents in it, and we march through the town centre. And I really liked that. But even, you know, that's a lot easier for me to deal with, but even then, there's - it gets overwhelming for me, particularly the march because it's very loud. And I love a good march, love a good protest but it gets, it can get me very overwhelmed. I think having more quieter spaces would, I think would be really beneficial. I think sometimes the discourse around things like a queer café, or a queer book club, or things like that, can get sort of muddied because I think people think that we're asking for it because we want to tame down kind of queer life, or just because we're a bit prudish. And obviously, knowing how hard the queer community has fought to be able to be loud, and have sex, and, you know, that's really, it's important. It's so important, and it's like, I would never want to take away things like the club scene, because they're so important. Yeah. And it's just about, you know, some of us are, some of us really struggle in those environments. And we would like somewhere as well. And -
Hannah Witton
Options!
Erin Ekins
Exactly, I think so. And I think it's, you know, it's not saying that these, that clubs and things are that they're, you know, bad or seedy or too loud or more, you know, that all of these things, you know, it's I think - I wish I could go to gay clubs. I wish I didn't have a breakdown in gay clubs, because I would love to be part of that scene. But I just can't do it.
Hannah Witton
You might have already thought of this and ruled it out but: silent disco? Would that work?
Erin Ekins
Never tried it. I've never tried it.
Hannah Witton
Maybe try it in your living room to begin with and then like let me know.
Erin Ekins
But yes, I mean that that is - but I think also I think the thing with the club is not just a noise, it's like -
Hannah Witton
The vibrations?
Erin Ekins
- the amount of people as well.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah.
Erin Ekins
If I find, you know, people - you know, people don't mean to touch you, but they bump into you and it's like, the whole world is now spinning off its axis because someone's bumped into me and I didn't like it and I don't want it. I think - so yeah, I think and I think online spaces have been very - there's - I think a lot of us are autistic anyway. But yeah, so it's been quite, it's been - it's been an interesting experience. Like, I don't feel like I've been purposefully ostracized by the LGBTQIA+ community but I just think a lot of it is very inaccessible.
Hannah Witton
Just structurally?
Erin Ekins
Yeah. And there are some people of course, who, you know, as with any space, if I walk into a space and I'm acting very autistic, people often don't like that. And it's the same in in queer spaces as it is in any other space. That you get that same - that you get the same sort of bullying, you get the same sort of "oh god she's been really cringe" or "stop talking about that". You know, you - it's - so yeah, it's kind of like an extent - but I think it hurts a bit more, because, you know, you're already in a marginalized space and you want to be safe. And yeah, sometimes this just isn't. But yeah.
Hannah Witton
I don't know about other places around the UK. But in London, you've got Gay's The Word book shop. And then there's a queer friendly cafe called Apple Tree. Obviously, both of these places are inaccessible during lockdown. But those are two like more quiet spaces I'm aware of that are in London. And somebody asked, what is the best way to explain puberty and support kids with autism through it?
Erin Ekins
That's a really, really good one actually. I think it's really important to be really clear. And to not use metaphors or euphemisms, I think that's really important. You know, just give people the names of things. Explain what's physically happening, you know, this - I need to understand the ins and outs of why something's happening before I can kind of accept it. So I mean, I use this example. This is a very clunky example when we're talking about something like puberty, but when I was learning to drive, I couldn't work out changing gears because I couldn't understand. I was like, why, why do I have to do this? What's - why - why is this happening? I can't just -
Hannah Witton
Because you can't see the mechanics of the car, like -
Erin Ekins
Exactly. So eventually, my driving instructor had this idea of like just pulling up a bit of paper and saying, "Well, when you change it, this is what happens there. And then that's why that happens, and that needs to happen when you're at this speed." And I was like, okay, and from that moment on, I could change gears, I was fine. So I think it's that sort of thing. I think things like, I think particularly periods can be really difficult because they are a massive sensory experience anyway. And they could be very distressing. And I don't know if there is a way to make them less distressing, unfortunately. I mean, I very specifically, take birth control, just so I don't have periods because I don't want them. And it was an option for me as an adult, to be like, I'm not gonna have these anymore.
Hannah Witton
That's what I did for years.
Erin Ekins
I was like I don't want this, I don't like it, I don't want to. But I did - there is - if there's a particular issue around around puberty, there is a really, really good book by Robyn Steward, who is an autistic writer, who's done, basically it's a book just about periods, but it goes into so much detail, and things like how to comfortably wear a pad, you know, different options if you find things uncomfortable from a sensory perspective. And there's lots of pictures of what, you know, things like, you know, this is where you put the pad. And this is what happens here. And this is why this happens. And it's also, it also is very accessible in terms of being non-gendered as well. The book doesn't talk about women and girls. It's, if you have a period. And so that's a book, I really recommend people. I had the - I've done some work with Robin years ago in the past and so I had the opportunity to read the book, and to flick through it very quickly, before it had actually come out.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, special club!
Erin Ekins
Loved it. And I thought it was it was like an absolutely invaluable resource. And that's a very specific part of puberty. But I think -
Hannah Witton
But that like example of really explaining things in detail and preparing young people for like, all of the different elements and - because it's a, it's a massive change.
Erin Ekins
I wouldn't go back to it, no way.
Hannah Witton
It was a nightmare! I think things like just not not shaming as well, because I think if you've got, I remember, one of the first times I did a talk around these issues, I actually talked about people using, you know, teenagers using porn as a way of figuring out their sexuality and sort of what they're attracted to and, and, you know, these weird feelings and what do they mean? And, and I wanted to, you know, talk about how to do it, you know how to be like, you can use this, but be aware of this, and be careful of this and such like and so forth. And I remember I got quite, I got backlash from it. The - even the suggestion, because, "no, porn is bad and my autistic child shouldn't be looking at porn." And my response was, "If your autistic child is trying to figure out their sexuality, they're probably already looking at it." And you need to be like - and the answer is not to say "No, no, no porn. How dare you! Bad!" It's, it's kind of having those discussions around. You know, this is - a lot of the free stuff, which is what I assume you're watching -
Hannah Witton
You're like, "I'm done!" I've got my birth control, I'm all good.
Hannah Witton
Just like teenagers getting out their credit cards, just like, "I'm gonna pay for some ethical porn."
Erin Ekins
Exactly. I was like, there is ethical porn, but I doubt you're - that's what you're accessing. And, you know, and just be like, you know, be - kind of have an open conversation about that and be like, you know, watch it. And if it's, you know, I can't stop you doing that, but be aware of these things. And I think it's - I know that that's, - that's something that I think all parents should do with their kids. But I think particularly when it comes to autistic people, I think there's more of a inclination to go, "No, that that's bad. You shouldn't be doing that. How dare you. No. Stop it."
Hannah Witton
Ruining the innocence, once again.
Erin Ekins
Yeah, exactly. Ruining the innocence.
Hannah Witton
And I correct me if I'm wrong, but is there an element of an autistic person may be seeing porn and taking it at face value? And so that also just being like more of a reason for like, actually talking through like, this is what porn is. This is what intimacy is. This, you know, like, this is what you might see online?
Erin Ekins
Yeah, I think I think that's really important. I think it is. I think that they can sometimes be I mean - I say I get really immersed in my fictional characters, my TV shows, and there's - I'm more kind of inclined to do that, and I think having those conversations around things like, like porn is really good. And it's, it's sort of it's why in my book talk about porn, but I also talk about things like fanfiction that we've talked about, because that's somewhat - that's kind of it's sort of, it's fulfilling the same role, in a way.
Hannah Witton
It's a fantasy.
Erin Ekins
Exactly. It's exploring kind of that and, and then it's sort of a, "Okay, so I'm feeling something, but what am I feeling? And, you know, how do I, you know, how do I connect with what I'm feeling?" And so I think puberty is going to be, it's going to be horrible. It's horrible - but doesn't have -
Hannah Witton
It doesn't have to be horrible but be prepared.
Erin Ekins
But yeah, well, no, I just didn't have a good time when I was a teenager, just generally, friendships, puberty, did not [inaudible] feelings for me, but I think having a really kind of open and honest - and get down to the nitty gritty with what you're talking about. Even if it's embarrassing, I think it's really, really important. And I think, particularly around teaching your, you know, your autistic kids things like, rather than just presuming that they won't have sex, you know, teaching them things like how to spot red flags and how, and how to know when something isn't right, you know, when something is abusive, when something is coercion, and, you know, and even to the level of, you know, you know, explaining to them, how, you know, they can make sure that the person that they're with is consenting, because, I mean, if you're struggling to read someone's signals, that might be more difficult. So, you know, I think there's, there's just - I think talking is is really important. And if not talking, if talking isn't the thing that is working, because obviously not everybody is comfortable talking, some people are partially verbal or non verbal, you know, things like, maybe have a chat conversation, have a whatsapp group, maybe link to YouTube videos that are helpful. I mean, that's what I've done. Get them a copy of my book!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Be like your driving instructor and draw a diagram and explain everything in super detail. Well, Erin, thank you so much. Go ahead and plug your book again! Where can people find you online to check out what you do?
Erin Ekins
Brilliant. And so yeah, and obviously, buy my book, it's Queerly Autistic: The Ultimate Guide for LGBTQIA+ Teens on the Spectrum, and it goes from talking about what these different identities are through to kind of figuring it out, like the real nitty gritty of romantic feeling, what it feels to have sexual attraction, it does discuss trans issues, it talks about kind of gender and transitioning. Obviously, I'm not trans, so - and I do say this in the book that I am very, I'm aware that I'm coming from a perspective of not having experienced that so it's really good to seek out kind of other trans people, particularly trans autistic people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you have tons of resources, like, in each chapter of the book. Yeah.
Erin Ekins
I'm trying to link you to other things as well as me. All the way through to kind of sex and relationships and friendships and dealing with bigotry online, and coming out, and going out in LGBTQIA+ spaces and being finding that community. It's basically it's the book I wanted when I was a kid. And so yeah, please do. Even if you are not LGBTQIA+, I think it can be a really good resource, or if you're not young or a teen, I still think it's a, it can be a good resource. It's marketed for teens, but it's definitely something I wanted to be universal. And I hope that people can can learn things from it. I think parents, I think parents - might give you kind of an insight into what's going on maybe in your child's head. Because I know it can be difficult. But yeah, so that's the book. I also write at queerlyautistic.com, although that's been a bit dead recently, because I was writing a book.
Hannah Witton
You've been busy. You haven't had time!
Erin Ekins
You can find me on Twitter. I'm @queerlyautistic on Twitter. And I have also started a YouTube channel which is Queerly Autistic.
Hannah Witton
Yay, YouTube!
Erin Ekins
Yes, we're up to two ranty videos so far but it's it's definitely a platform I'm looking to build more. So do come and check it out.
Hannah Witton
Very cool. Yes, absolutely check Erin out on all of the platforms. And thank you so much for joining me. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye.
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find shownotes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a Global original podcast