LGBTQ+ Education For Kids with Olly Pike | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Olly Pike
Very careful not to call her Elsa in it.
Hannah Witton
Well, that's basically what fanfiction is.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, let's take this thing we love, and make it gayer
Olly Pike
And make it better.
Hannah Witton
Make it better and gayer.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. I'm coming to you from Toronto, Canada this week, and you can tell I'm at an event because my voice has already gone, but hopefully it sounds really nice in podcast form. A soothing ASMR-like sexy husk. Who knows. Anyway, this week, my guest is the incredible Olly Pike, the creator of Pop ‘n’ Olly, which is a educational, entertaining show brand for young kids around LGBTQ plus topics. Olly is obviously Olly and Pop is his sidekick friend, a balloon. Olly is a YouTuber, an author, Illustrator, animator, and educator. We talk in this episode about how he got into making LGBTQ+ education content for kids, for lack of a better word, the haters on the internet, his experience doing workshops in primary schools, and how with really, really young kids, you can start as basic as teaching about the different types of families. We do go into the controversy around the No Outsiders programme, and the backlash towards that earlier in the year. And we chat about toleration versus acceptance for LGBTQ+ people. And the reason I got Olly on the podcast was to celebrate the launch of his new book, Kenny Lives with Erica and Martina, which you might recognise the name of because it's a play on Jenny lives with Eric and Martin, which was released in 1983, and there was a huge backlash to that which led to Section 28. Olly is on a mission to get a copy of Kenny Lives with Erica and Martina in every UK primary school, so I hope that you can join me in donating a copy to your old primary school. I really hope that you enjoy this episode, I really loved chatting with Olly about all of this stuff, it is so so important, and thank you so much for listening.
Hannah Witton
Thanks so much for joining me, Olly.
Olly Pike
You're welcome.
Hannah Witton
You are a legend.
Olly Pike
Stop it, you are!
Hannah Witton
To children and adults alike. So, first of all, how did you start doing LGBTQ+ education for kids?
Olly Pike
Well, I was like, where is it? basically, do you know what I mean. I had like a very small YouTube channel, my background is in children's theatre and children's television, and I started making videos. And then for a number of reasons I was like, I need to make my content LGBT+ inclusive, and I did and then there was kind of no looking back, because it kind of took off. Yeah, people were like - people needed it, schools needed it.
Hannah Witton
Because before that, what was your content about?
Olly Pike
It was - it was still the same characters, it was still me and my little balloon sidekick.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. So that's Pop, and you're Olly.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Pop and Olly.
Olly Pike
Yeah, I invented him like, what, eight years ago now and he's still here.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, I love that.
Olly Pike
Sometimes I'm like, do I still need him? But of course I still need him.
Hannah Witton
I know, if you got rid of him -
Olly Pike
People wouldn't watch it.
Hannah Witton
Uproar.
Olly Pike
So I think I'm stuck with him but I'm quite happy, because he's cute.
Hannah Witton
And he doesn't talk back.
Olly Pike
Well, he's more of a yes man actually. He literally just says whatever I want him to say.
Hannah Witton
That's true, you created him.
Olly Pike
Yeah, so fair enough. But before it was LGBT, it was actually just kind of like arts and crafts, because I love drawing and writing. And I think I was trying to be more of a craft show on YouTube. Didn't really get too successful with that. I kind of put that to bed and did gay stuff instead, really.
Hannah Witton
Did gay stuff. Always onto a winner.
Olly Pike
Yeah. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
What was the first like LGBT video that you made?
Olly Pike
So that was really, really simple, which was just talking about different types of families. And I just included families which were headed by same sex couples as well. See, this is the thing, it's so simple to teach children about LGBT+ people, like so simple. I can't believe I'm the one like explaining it. So you just have to include different types of families.
Hannah Witton
And they're just must have been such a need for that.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because that video did really well, and that kind of is then what led you to making all of your content about LGBT education.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And like that is that's just wild to me, because when I think about other people like doing relationships education, or sex education, most of the people that I follow is obviously like for, like teenagers upwards, and then adults. And so there's not many people I know doing it for children, let alone LGBT education for children. And like, what has the feedback been?
Olly Pike
Mostly, it surprised me because it's been like 90% positive. Like people think it's awesome, they love it, they're so on board with it, like, big companies are buying books. We just sent 4000 books to India.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God.
Olly Pike
To children in India, which is like, so cool. So it's been great. However, there has, as you know, with the wonderful world of internet, you get the haters. And actually something I've noticed, I feel like the haters have started to grow in recent years. I feel like this is the vibe we're all experiencing.
Hannah Witton
And because your channel is for kids, like do you moderate all the comments? Are you like very strict about that?
Olly Pike
I mean I put, what's that thing when you block the words.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. Like the blacklisted things on YouTube.
Olly Pike
Yeah, so I've blacklisted words, however, it's just like -
Hannah Witton
They find creative ways to get through it.
Olly Pike
Yeah, I can't catch them all. And the other thing is, people have made videos about me. Have they done that about you? Where they take your video -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
And then they like, play it and then they comment, a really snarky comment at the top.
Hannah Witton
And then people who are searching for your name, sometimes that video will like, for a while, be ranking higher in like the SEO?
Olly Pike
A very short while.
Hannah Witton
There are ways to crush that.
Olly Pike
Yeah, I think we've all share the tips like of how to make sure that that doesn't happen. Yeah, but yeah.
Hannah Witton
You don't want like the children who are looking for your content to find that.
Olly Pike
No, not at all. And what's good is that a lot of my videos are on Youtube Kids, which is like a safe space.
Hannah Witton
And there's no like comments on that is it because it, the way that, from what I know - you can explain how it works -but there's no like, subscribe or comment button on the videos.
Olly Pike
Which is great. Also some of my videos aren't, are on other platforms. So they're on Hopster TV, which is a bit like I guess Netflix, but for kids. It's got like Peppa Pig, and Thomas the Tank Engine, and -
Hannah Witton
And you! And Pop and Olly.
Olly Pike
And me! Yeah, so um, and also have the books as well. So I feel like kids can access my content in lots of different ways.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Tell me about the books, because there's five now, five, six?
Olly Pike
Six coming up.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
I'm an author. It's so weird. Isn't it weird that we never meant to do any of this.
Hannah Witton
So we'll talk about the new one in a bit. But the first one, which was the first one and why - how did that happen?
Olly Pike
The first one was Prince Henry. The thing is the video, the YouTube video, comes first.
Hannah Witton
Because you are an illustrator and an animator as well.
Olly Pike
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like self taught.
Hannah Witton
I mean, you do that, and you do it as your job, so you can totally say that, yeah.
Olly Pike
Thanks. Um, so I think Prince Henry was like my, the third video of my new like, LGBT plus type videos. And I was just like, I'm gonna make a whole fairy tale that's about two gay princes. So I did. And then I think I finished the video, and I was like, oh, do you know what'd be really good. If I could turn this into a book, because then people who watch the video and like it might want to buy the book. So -
Hannah Witton
Smart.
Olly Pike
That was probably one of my my first smart business decisions, ever. And so I made the book and people bought it. And it's weird, because now people when they think of me, or when I'm invited to things, I'm Olly Pike, author, as opposed to Olly Pike, YouTuber, which I don't mind, but it's just -
Hannah Witton
There is something about that, that feels slightly more legitimate.
Olly Pike
I guess so.
Hannah Witton
Annoyingly.
Olly Pike
Yeah, it shouldn't, but do you know what's great? When I talk to schools, the schools like get me in because I'm an - I'm an author, I'm also a published author.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
But then when I talk to the kids, I'm a YouTuber, and like, I'm on the same wavelength of them. And because all they're interested in is how many subscribers you've got, which is like adorable.
Hannah Witton
Aw. So when you go into schools, what age do you talk to?
Olly Pike
So I do like all primary school, all ages, from like, the little reception kids, right up to, to like 11 years old, but I cater for different ages.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
So with the really baby ones, we just talk about like different types of families. That's all they need to know about. Obviously, like people can have a mummy and daddy, or mummy and mummy, or daddy and daddy, or live or their grandparents, just all them different family setups. But then as we kind of get older, we look at different things like different types of relationships, like some people are gay, some people are lesbian. We look at ideas of gender, and how we unknowingly gender different things without meaning to.
Hannah Witton
What kinds of things do you actually say, because I feel like myself and other people will be curious, like, actually, what kind of language, and what do you say to 9 and 10 year olds about gender?
Olly Pike
I just talk to them about like, stereotypes and things like that, and how we all have these preconceived ideas of like, what types of people do which jobs, as well.
Hannah Witton
Did you watch that TV show that was like, no more boys and girls, where they like took a class of seven year olds and tried to, like get rid of any, like stereotypes around gender in the class room
Olly Pike
I think I saw that, I've seen something similar, where they, because they actually do that in Sweden. They have this like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, good Sweden.
Olly Pike
I know, I'm gonna move there because their gender laws are so much better. They have a lot of like, gender neutral kind of kindergarten schools out there. And what they've learned is actually the children are far more likely to make friends with, and approach people, who are the opposite gender, and yeah, they tend to stereotype less.
Hannah Witton
I was talking to some friends recently who'd gone to a single sex boarding school.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And they were saying how like, their first encounter with a different sex, or a different gender to them, was university, and they're just like, how do I interact? And that is wild to me, because then you've got like a whole like group of people who kind of consider someone of a different gender or a different sex like, as a different species.
Olly Pike
Like an alien.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just like, what? It's like no, we're like there's really not much difference between us.
Olly Pike
Yeah, and it's weird because it's not like we're trying to get rid of genders, we're just, I think what I'm trying to tell the kids is that yeah, it is a spectrum and like you don't have to choose between one side or the other. You can choose both, and you can just make your world a little bit bigger, as opposed to just having half of the world.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that. And what, I'm assuming that the kind of schools that you get invited to are like totally on board for this, and like understand that it's really necessary. But obviously in the UK recently, there was some backlash.
Olly Pike
Was there? I've not heard about it. No, it's been all over the news.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and have people, so what we're talking about is the No Outsiders programme, and parents taking their kids out of school, and that was also a primary school.
Olly Pike
Yes.
Hannah Witton
And it's very similar because it was basically, it was books, wasn't it? It was like children's books and -
Olly Pike
They actually have some of my books in that school.
Hannah Witton
I did think, I was gonna ask, yeah.
Olly Pike
Because I actually went up to that that particular primary school, last year, because I'm good friends with Andrew Moffett -
Hannah Witton
Who was the start of -
Olly Pike
Who's created the No Outsiders, and he's actually taught me a lot, and he helped me develop my own workshops as well. And it's just so bizarre because having been in that school just a year ago, the ethos of the school was incredible in terms of like acceptance and equality, and their assemblies we're always about like different types of people, about disability, about race, about LGBT+. The kids were just so smart and so accepting, that I do not understand what has happened. This which, its just so bizarre. Well I kind of understand what's happening because
Hannah Witton
But it's just so wild, because those kids are so young. And it's just like, for them, they're just like yeah, whatever, like this is how it is. And it is coming from parents.
Olly Pike
I know. And it's like when you're a kid, you trust your parents more than anyone so it's just honestly, it's heartbreaking because they've been told two different things, and is going to be, I don't know, I just think is going to be troubling for them. And I saw something really awful yesterday, which actually made me feel sick. It was like this drag queen storytime in America, they were like having a little like party thing, with loads of like loads of community, and then this guy, who's a YouTuber, goes in -
Hannah Witton
Giving us a bad name.
Olly Pike
Yeah. Starts like preaching stuff and -
Hannah Witton
Was it a party for kids?
Olly Pike
Yeah, and like just started being really like, I want to say like aggressive because he was like, quoting like religious text, and just basically saying, you're bad word enablers, and it made me feel sick, sick to my stomach because it just reminds me that there are some people out there who, on the grounds of like religion or whatever, just are not willing to, to not willing to listen, or not willing to budge.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
And it makes me really sad, and it makes me think like, how do we combat that?
Hannah Witton
I think we just plough on. Like, it's so tricky because I also do think that the people who are like so staunch in their beliefs like that, are potentially like, are just a loud minority. And we hear them a lot because, and also because it is scary. So we kind of, you know, you have to kind of be like, oh shit, people like that exist. And then obviously, you've got like, your macro and your micro aggressions.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like it's not like an isolated incident as well.
Olly Pike
It's, I don't know. I feel like as LGBTQ+ people, we're always questioning ourselves. So it doesn't take much for us to question ourselves again. And it takes a lot for us to get to a point where we're like, no, we are right. It's taken me a long time to get there. Even with my work. Like I think it's been maybe five years, where I'm like, no, this is 100% right. Like we have to teach children about LGBT+ people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because you can have so many doubts of like, even voices that kind of almost seem responsible when they are like, but it must be age appropriate. And you're like, well, yes, obviously. But sometimes people say that in a way that means that LGBT is not like age - can never be age appropriate as well.
Olly Pike
Yeah because they just, you know, LGBT+ people will have been unfairly sexualized.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
Our entire existence, to the point where people can't imagine that it's not to do with sex.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
But there is the point where it's like, we have explained to some people that it's not about sex, and they're still not still not on board, in which case, I'm like, you're homophobic.
Hannah Witton
And I think sometimes you have to, like feel okay to say that as well. Because sometimes, you might feel like a bit nervous to even like say, yeah, accuse someone of being homophobic when you're like, I don't want to stir the pot.
Olly Pike
I know. Because a lot of them, a lot of protesters are saying, we're not homophobic, and it's like, well you are.
Hannah Witton
Blatantly are. Yeah, it's really tricky. I think people just have like, completely different ideas about what homophobia is. Like, I think maybe those parents who were protesting the No Outsiders programme, maybe they think that homophobia is like beating someone up because they're gay, or like having laws against it. But -
Olly Pike
It's like, we respect you, we tolerate you. And it's like, we don't be tolerated. We want to be accepted.
Hannah Witton
Yes, that word, tolerate. Yeah.
Olly Pike
Yeah. And the thing is though, what they don't understand is that like, at the heart of it, this is about saving lives. Like we look at the Stonewall statistics, and it's like, the amount of kids, like almost half or more than half of LGBT+ young people in senior school, are being bullied for being LGBT+. They're hurting themselves, they're also - I think almost half of LGBT plus, and more so for trans students, have attempted to take their own life. And it's like, this is why we teach them as young as possible that it's okay. Not only for you to be who you are, but for your friends to be who they are. It's not just about letting the gay kids, air quotes, know about about gay people, it's about letting every child know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because I mean every child has to learn about straight relationships.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Shoving these Disney fairy tales down our throats.
Olly Pike
Yeah. And it's like, if you're not happy to have a book about gay relationships, then you shouldn't have any books about any relationships, because it's not equality otherwise.
Hannah Witton
And it's also wild to think that just how how little of this there is. Like your books are like so necessary and so needed, but when I'm just like, okay other like queer fairytales, like for like aimed at children, and then I'm thinking like, who is producing content for kids? Okay, Disney. Where, where, hmmm, where?
Olly Pike
It's difficult because it's like, I love Disney. Obviously, everyone does. It's something we've grown up with, but I don't know, it's like -
Hannah Witton
Will they ever do a gay prince or princess?
Olly Pike
Well, this is the thing.
Hannah Witton
They've got obviously the, there's a new film that's coming out whatever that is like Disney's first gay character.
Olly Pike
The jungle, jungle run? No.
Hannah Witton
Jungle Cruise?
Olly Pike
Something.
Hannah Witton
And yeah, that but obviously there's been a lot of backlash of that because it's, it's Jack Whitehall, a straight man, playing this character. But it's like, but what about one of the like, animated, iconic, princess movies -
Olly Pike
The hero.
Hannah Witton
Or a hero movie, yeah.
Olly Pike
I was at a screening for a Disney film, and one of the producers was there. And I remember talking to them, because you knew that you did that thing where you're like, trying to network and get in there. I was telling them about my work, and I was like, so like, is Disney ever gonna do have have a queer hero? And they were like, yeah, they will. We're just we're just waiting for the right story. And it's like, you can't wait any more.
Hannah Witton
Like you have so many good stories.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Just make one?
Olly Pike
I've got about 20, take one of mine.
Hannah Witton
Or just like make the character gay.
Olly Pike
I know. It's just, I feel like they're possibly scared.
Hannah Witton
Elsa. Elsa, I'm still just like rooting for her to be.
Olly Pike
I made a queer version of that. I made, on my channel, a video called the ice queen and her wife.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Olly Pike
I just know, I just know Disney aren't gonna do that so I was like, I'm gonna do it.
Hannah Witton
Nice yeah, that's a thing, just like make the stuff.
Olly Pike
I was very careful not to call her Elsa though.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. What did you call her?
Olly Pike
Just the ice queen.
Hannah Witton
Just the ice queen, yeah.
Olly Pike
Cuz Disney don't own fairy tales. Fairy tales are way older than Disney.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that that is true. You just can't use the names that they have come up with.
Olly Pike
Or just call it fanfiction. It's fine.
Hannah Witton
It's fine. I can make every - well, that's basically what fanfiction is.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, let's take this thing we love, and make it gayer
Olly Pike
And make it better.
Hannah Witton
Make it better and gayer. That's fanfiction. Oh, I love that. What is like the different kinds of feedback that you get from like your books and also your videos from children? And then also parents, and teachers as well, I guess?
Olly Pike
Oh, I get such great feedback. I don't know, it's like, I mean, you must get it as well. When people, you get comments every day. And they're like, you've helped me so much. You've made me brave enough to come out to my parents, like a 13 year old girl. I think I've got that like yesterday, something like that. And you've helped me explain to my seven year old brother or sister what LGBT person means
Hannah Witton
What is your like age demos? Can you see like how much you're being viewed through Youtube Kids? And then how much is like older people, who are maybe parents, or older siblings, watching and stuff?
Olly Pike
Yeah, I can. But I feel like it shows me - not - it doesn't - it's not gonna show me the amount of kids that are watching, because -
Hannah Witton
That's data on children, and you can't -
Olly Pike
Yeah. But I guess my most viewed ages are between like 13 and 30.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Olly Pike
So like them kind of like two brackets, or whatever that is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
So I figured that is probably like young, young teens, but then also maybe young parents as well. So yeah, no, the feedback I get from like, teachers is great. I've got some really great endorsements for my book, from like the National Education Union.
Hannah Witton
Yes! Let's talk about your new book. It's out now.
Olly Pike
I guess so, by the time -
Hannah Witton
By the time this podcast comes out.
Olly Pike
Make sure you order your copy.
Hannah Witton
Out now. And what is it called?
Olly Pike
It is called Kenny Lives with Erica and Martina.
Hannah Witton
Which is a play on Jenny lives with Eric and Martin.
Olly Pike
Exactly, yes.
Hannah Witton
So tell tell us a bit about Jenny lives with Eric and Martin, and then your book.
Olly Pike
So, okay -
Hannah Witton
The history.
Olly Pike
So, I'm going to take you back in time.
Hannah Witton
Do do do do do, back in time.
Olly Pike
The 1980s, and an author called Susanne Bosch, I hope I've said her name right. A Danish author. She created the black and white children's book, Jenny lives with Eric and Martin. And it was about a little girl called Jenny, who lives with I guess her two dads. And the book was brought over to the UK in 1983, and published by the then Gay Men's Press. And the negativity surrounding the book, it was, there was just so much controversy, because it was like a gay children's book. The negativity surrounding it led to the passing of Section 28.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because there was like the moral panic.
Olly Pike
Yeah. And then that meant LGBT+ people weren't allowed to be spoken about in schools at all. It was against the law. There couldn't be the type of books that I'm producing in libraries, or anywhere. So it was a huge setback for LGBT plus people.
Hannah Witton
And then also section 28 was not revoked until like the -
Olly Pike
2003.
Hannah Witton
Yeah till the noughties.
Olly Pike
So generations of children, including both of us.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we grew up in schools that were, yeah, our, well, my entire primary school existence, existence, yeah, my entire time at primary school would have was during Section 28.
Olly Pike
And also the last relationship and sex education guidance was produced during the -
Hannah Witton
It 2002, wasn't it?
Olly Pike
During section 28, so that's not been updated for 20 years it's only just been updated.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, September 2020, come on.
Olly Pike
It's coming!
Hannah Witton
They already pushed it back a year. So so that's like some like recent - it's just so recent, that history, as well.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But now, Kenny lives with Erica and Martina.
Olly Pike
Yeah, I know, it's suuch a mouthful.
Hannah Witton
That's gonna be in like all of the school libraries.
Olly Pike
That's the plan, yeah. I want to get a copy of my book into every single UK primary school. And my story is completely different. It's based more on what happened to the book, about how people try to kind of get rid of something, and brush something under the rug because it was different.
Hannah Witton
So it is like fully about Jenny lives with Eric and Martin. And oh, I love that as well.
Olly Pike
Yeah, maybe I'll read what I wrote because it explains it better.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Cuz you have, this is in the notes for grown up.
Olly Pike
Yeah, at the very beginning, it just talks about the original book. But I just wrote in here that the intention with my story is not to retell Jenny lives with Eric and Martin, but rather draw inspiration from the unjust real life events which followed its publication in the UK, in like a story, a children's story.
Hannah Witton
And it's so beautiful.
Olly Pike
Thanks.
Hannah Witton
Do you do all the illustrations?
Olly Pike
I do, I draw everything with my finger on my iPad.
Hannah Witton
That's wild to me. I just love how, I love how it feels so homegrown and like, just from comes from like such a good place.
Olly Pike
Yeah, I mean, I've just always loved drawing, and now it's my job, and I'm super lucky.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What are your other books as well? So the first one we talked about, Prince Henry, most recent one is Kenny.
Olly Pike
Yes. And in between I've got Jamie, which is my transgender Cinderella story. I've also got Goldilocks and the Five Bear Families - this is for like younger readers, because it's just about loads of different families.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Olly Pike
They're all bear families, but they're all different types of bears. They're like panda bears, koala bears, and some of them are two dads or two mums. Princess Penny and the Pea, which isn't LGBT+, but I'm sure Penny is an LGBT+ ally.
Hannah Witton
And also on the front cover, I can see that a Penny is in a wheelchair.
Olly Pike
Yes, she is. But that's not part of the story. Actually, in fact, with, this is the thing with all my stories, the thing that you might think is the issue, isn't at all.
Hannah Witton
Oh I like that.
Olly Pike
Yeah. Because it just kind of want to usualise people that are different. It's like there'd be nothing worse if I made the story about the fact why she's in a wheelchair, do you know what I mean? She's just in a wheelchair. That's, that's her. It doesn't matter. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And she's the protagonist.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
She's the hero. And you have Prince and the Frog.
Olly Pike
The Prince and the Frog, which is my first published book with Jessica Kingsley Publishers, which was fun to do. It's nice, because it's a hardback, so you can like eat your dinner off it and stuff. Kids can throw it around, and this one is actually more about relationships, about healthy relationships.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Olly Pike
And also about how you don't always have to be in a relationship.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, that needs to be said more.
Olly Pike
To kids, yeah. To everyone.
Hannah Witton
To everyone. But also I feel like from as definitely as younger kids, because you grow up thinking that like, then being in a relationship is like the goal. And like the aim.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And that starts when you're so young, that idea.
Olly Pike
This, especially for queer people as well, it's like this idea of heteronormativity. It's like, it's okay to be gay, as long as you find a husband, buy a house, and have kids.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you must be an acceptable kind of gay.
Olly Pike
Yeah. Okay. And it's really annoying, and it's like, it makes me feel like, you know, if I thought that way, it would make me feel like I'm a failure, because I'm not in a relationship, I don't have - but it's like, I'm not a failure at all, you know what I mean.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
I's just so much pressure that we need to take off of young people.
Hannah Witton
Mm hmm. And also, if you're not teaching young people about like, healthy relationships then - and - but you're also giving them these ideas that being in a relationship is like the pedestal, like that is what you strive for.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But you're not teaching them about, like, what healthy one looks like, and how to spot signs of unhealthy ones, then ultimately, it's like, any relationship is better than being single. That's like the idea that you're you're putting out there, when actually, it's like, no, no, no, no, it's much better to be single than in an unhealthy relationship.
Olly Pike
Exactly. And the most important relationship is the one with yourself really, isn't it. And I think that's what we need to teach people, children, first of all, to know about their mental wellbeing, and yeah, and just general.
Hannah Witton
I just can't remember like any, like education around relationships.
Olly Pike
Nothing.
Hannah Witton
That I got when I was, like, primary school age. Because I was having crushes from age four. Like, I remember my first crush when I was like, four. And I'm pretty, like, I can also pretty much name, from year one, oh, wait, no, did I have a crush year one? From year two, I can name like, every boy I had a crush on in primary school. My crushes lasted one academic year. And then I would move on over summer. And then I'd get a new one. But I never, like, had any kind of education about what to do with that? Or like, what it was normal to feel, or like, because when you're that age, as well, you like, have fake boyfriends and girlfriends, and you have fake marriages, and we're just - it's - you play house. It's so ingrained in us that it's like, and now you must pair off.
Olly Pike
Yeah, it's weird, isn't it. I feel like our minds and brains have just evolved, because it's like, if they'd have felt like this, you know, 60 or 70 years ago, the way we feel today, like would they have not been making changes then, about mental health and things. But maybe they didn't feel like this? I don't know.
Hannah Witton
I don't know. It's obviously like only only in like, recent years with, at least in like the western society that we live in that marriage, or like relationships, are based in emotions and not like finance, or business, or like it's not a business transaction.
Olly Pike
Yeah, love marriages.
Hannah Witton
A love marriage instead of what, a business marriage or -
Olly Pike
An arrangement, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Well yeah in some kind of way. Yeah, there's so much to unpack and -
Olly Pike
Do you know what it is, I've watched some videos on it. It'ss something to do with like romanticism, and romanticism is actually what has killed love.
Hannah Witton
Wait, what? Have we, oh, have we romanticised being romantic?
Olly Pike
Because we - because of all the Romantic period, and like, don't quote me on this, but this is what this is a video was about. But apparently, because of like, we associate love with like Romeo and Juliet, and all these like gestures of love, and willing to die for someone -
Hannah Witton
They died.
Olly Pike
Exactly. We kind of feel like that is what love should be, when actually a healthy relationship is perhaps very different to, to that.
Hannah Witton
To Romeo and Juliet, and to romcoms.
Olly Pike
Yeah, and serendipity and all kind of fate. Yeah. So -
Hannah Witton
And there's more queer people, as well.
Olly Pike
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
So back to your YouTube channel. What kinds of videos are you making now, now that you've been like doing the LGBT education stuff for years? Like what kinds of topics do you cover for young people?
Olly Pike
So I've got loads of different types of videos on my channel. I've got like the cartoons, which is basically, they're like my books, they're like video versions on my books. I've gotten them, they go down really well. But then I've also got the videos that I'm in, as well, and something I've really enjoyed doing recently is I've started like a mini series called All the Boys I've Ever Loved. And it's literally like me talking about, like my first crush, and my first kind of boyfriend, but in a very, like, tweeny sort of cute wa. And that video is actually aimed at a slightly older, older audience to what I normally would pitch my videos. More, like, maybe like 11/12 year olds, kids who might be queer, or might not, but I feel like they just kind of need some age appropriate stuff.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like the kind of stuff that we would get in magazines.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Growing up, but stuff that they can relate to.
Olly Pike
Yeah, exactly. I'm literally just talking about a boy that I fancied when I was 12. Yeah, and sharing them sort of stories. But then I also do like music videos as well, because you know, I wanted to be a pop star when I was little.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God.
Olly Pike
Didn't you? Didn't everyone?
Hannah Witton
Of course. That's why I still like, adore karaoke, because that's my moment to like, live that dream.
Olly Pike
Yeah. And it's like, I feel like my moment to live that dream is on my channel, because that's the great thing about YouTube, you can be whatever you want. And I've got two songs on there.
Hannah Witton
And are they like, educational songs? Like for kids? Or are they like song songs?
Olly Pike
They're like, they're on like brand. So one is like called Who I Am, and it's about like, just being yourself. And then have another one called Hero, which is about being your own hero, because I think a lot of the time we wait around for people to save us. And actually, we can save ourselves. So I think everything I try and do has like a message behind it, like an empowering message.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and one that I think is important for like, kids to hear.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Anyone to hear, really. But it's I love that it's kids that are getting these messages as well
Olly Pike
Yeah, they're they're inspiring. I feel like kids get disregarded a lot of the time. And they're actually they're so smart. And every time I go into schools, they're so on board with like equality, and they're appalled by stories of injustice. When I tell them that, you know, people like me, are, you know, being hurt, being imprisoned, just because of who they are, because they're gay, they're literally like shocked.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because you're a good guy. And I don't know, I feel like kids, or all of us, just like when we're younger, have do have somehow this idea of morality.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like of, this good, this bad, and like hurting people is bad. And letting someone like be themselves: good. And it's just sad that like, I don't know what age it happens, if they either receive a more fearmongering kind of education, or they receive no education about it at all. Like what, at what age do you actually see that start to shift? But I love that they're so on board.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That makes me so happy. I just love the idea of all these little kids, just like waving their pride flags.
Olly Pike
Literally waving their pride flags. I went to, I did a workshop at a school in South London. And afterwards, they did a pride march, the whole school, and it gave me goosebumps because I was like, this is amazing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olly Pike
I don't, this is why I don't think people realise that these kids are going to grow up to be, some of them are going to be queer, but some of them are going to be our allies.
Hannah Witton
And lawmakers, and gatekeepers.
Olly Pike
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Like, obviously that age that you're working with are a bit younger, but I think of like Generation Z now, who are like the generation just below us, so they're like teenagers now.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
They're so switched on, and the stuff that they do and I'm like, oh my god, they're really gonna like rule this world, and everything.
Olly Pike
Especially with like, hmm, what's her name? I love her, the climate change.
Hannah Witton
Greta Thunberg! I was literally just thinking about her too.
Olly Pike
She's so cool, and she's inspired me like, with some of the things she's doing. It's made me really think about like, travelling and you know, I didn't even know that planes were like, one of the biggest causes of like, pollution.
Hannah Witton
They are apparently like one of the worst.
Olly Pike
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And yeah,
Olly Pike
I also hate flying. So it's given me a good reason not to fly.
Hannah Witton
So I'm terrified of flying, but I love travelling. Yeah, it's like one of those things where you like, maybe cut down.
Olly Pike
We could get the train though.
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Olly Pike
Get the train to Europe.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then drive around. But that's also just as bad.
Olly Pike
We'll just get bikes
Hannah Witton
Bikes and trains, fine. We'll only ever go to places that we can get to via train. So Europe and Asia. Oh, we could still get to Africa.
Olly Pike
By train?
Hannah Witton
Well, I don't know by train, but it's all it's all land connected.
Olly Pike
Oh, yeah you could go the long way round.
Hannah Witton
I was just thinking -
Olly Pike
Yeah, we'll stay away from America. We don't want to get there anyway.
Hannah Witton
This is, this has been a very fun tangent. But basically what we're saying is young people. Yeah, I can't wait to see what happens when the generation that like you're talking to, when they grow up.
Olly Pike
Well, it's funny, I don't know sometimes I feel like, I don't want to come out wrong. But maybe we need to stop treating kids like kids, and treat them as future adults, and give them as much information, and as many tools as we can to make sure that their life is better. Better, better, my Essex is coming out.
Hannah Witton
Oh, well, thank you so much for chatting with me. Where can people buy your book?
Olly Pike
If you go to popnolly.com/shop. Then if you go to popnolly.com/KennyLives, and hashtag is #KennyLives, you can find all the information about my campaign to get book in every single primary school.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely check that out. Buy the book for yourself, your school libraries, kids that you know
Olly Pike
Yeah, I want people to buy a copy for themselves, and buy one for their old primary school, that would be great.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I'll buy one for my old primary school. Okay, yeah. 100%, I'll do that.
Olly Pike
Awesome.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I've got some friends who I grew up with, who went to a different primary school, but like around the corner, I'll make them do it as well.
Olly Pike
In Manchester?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, in Manchester. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much. We'll catch you soon.
Olly Pike
See you next time. Bye.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk, and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast