Doing Homemade and DIY Porn Safely with Paulita Pappel | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hello, welcome back to Doing It, the podcast for sex nerds like me to come together and get curious about sexuality. I'm Hannah Witton, and this week is no different. We are fully nerding out about the world of ethical porn with producer, director, and performer Paulita Pappel. Paulita is the cofounder of Lustery.com, which is a platform for homemade porn from real couples and we talk about how that works, how they screen people and pay them for their work. And because this woman is so incredible and does so many things, she's also the curator for the Porn Film Festival Berlin, and I had many questions about the experience of going to a porn film festival, what to expect, what happens, the different kinds of films shown - not just porn, apparently. And now I'm very curious to go to one myself. Maybe Berlin porn film festival 2022, we'll see.
In this episode, we talk about how Paulita got into porn initially after having a very sex negative view of the world growing up, we talk about the definition of amateur porn and how it's changed. And we answer your questions about consuming porn in a more ethical way, advice for making your own homemade or DIY porn safely, and introducing porn into your sex life. We also talk briefly about Pornhub and what happened after the New York Times Children of Pornhub article was published. Content warning for this part for mentions of child sexual abuse material. But we do mostly talk about the pattern of anti sex trafficking religious groups attacking porn sites, and it's a really interesting discussion to have.
I really loved this chat with Paulita. It definitely gave me lots more to think about when it comes to ethical porn and supporting sex workers and porn performers. And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes, it is really appreciated. And without further ado, here is the brilliant Paulita Papell.
Paulita, I am so excited to chat with you. Welcome to Doing It. Big fan of Lustery, I'll say off the bat.
Paulita Pappel
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here with you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I guess I just kind of wanted to start at the beginning in terms of like, how did you get into making porn films, erotic films, like I don't - I don't know what language you use to describe them. But yeah, how did you get into this whole industry?
Paulita Pappel
So long story, I'm gonna try to keep it short for you. I come from a background where -so I grew up and I as a teenager, I really thought porn and any kind of sex work - I didn't even know the word sex work back then, right? I thought all of it was part of the patriarchy to exploit women. And I was really against it. I had very, very strong feelings. Thinking it should be you know, abolished, and it was like a horrible thing. At the same time, I was really fascinated by the idea of it all. So I thought there was something wrong with me, I had like this inner conflict, I didn't know what was going on. So I grew up in Spain, which is a very Catholic country, and I had to get out of there. So as soon as I finished school, I went to Berlin, which is kind of like a mecca for any like sexual deviant person in the world.
Hannah Witton
It really is!
Paulita Pappel
It is, isn't it, such a good place. Yes, so I came here, I found queer feminist folks that were doing porn as part of their feminist practice. And I was like - blew my mind? I was like, "Oh my god, I can be a feminist and still do porn. Like that's okay." Yeah, that was how it started.
Hannah Witton
How did you come across that scene in Berlin? Were you like actively looking for it? Like, the little deviant inside of you was just like," I must find answers. Like what's going on here?"
Paulita Pappel
I think so. Like when I look back - I really didn't feel like that in that moment but when I look back, it was really just searching, searching for something, right? I mean, I, I did try out different things. Like you know, I would like call for an ad about like phone sex or whatever, because I was so curious. And I ended up in weird places for like - kind of shady, sketchy places for coming where I was like, "Okay, no, this is not the world. It doesn't feel right at all." And it was - it was very lucky. It was also very privileged. I was studying here in Berlin and through - I did - I took some gender studies class, and the teachers, somehow - it wasn't even about sex work, but someone that somehow they end up talking about sex work. And they were feminists, right, and I was looking up to them and thinking they were really amazing mentors for me. And finally we're talking about sex work and I was like, "What is this?" And so I approached them after class, I was like, "Well, what is - what is this whole thing about sex work, you need to explain, like, I need to understand."
Hannah Witton
"Please explain this as a feminist."
Paulita Pappel
And they - well, they just did, right. They were like, "Oh, sex work is work." And they just gave me like - I think they gave me like a magazine or something that was about the topic. And that's how that the first time that I realised like, "Okay, this exists," and then I was just, yeah, really hunting for it and, and I guess kind of like, at the same time, I discovered, like the queer scene, and discovered all of these new words and these new worlds, from polyamory to queer, gender, non binary, all of it. Like it was like an explosion of new concepts that totally like resonated with me, it was so much fun. It just meant so much sense. And so through these, like queer scene that I found that - the sex-positive queer scene - I was doing porn.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh my god, I love that. It's so interesting when you have the like, this pull towards something because you're so fascinated by it, and just like, really intrigued, and like, there's like some eroticism there of like, "What is this thing?" But then also, like, you were saying, like, the taboo and the not thinking that it was feminist and that it was all like really exploitative, and like, almost the taboo of it, like also kind of like driving the fascination as well.
Paulita Pappel
Totally. It's like, so wrong and right in so different ways.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it feels so good but's it's wrong, like, which one is it? Yeah. Fast forwarding a little. I would love for you to tell us about Lustery and why you started that platform, like what it is, to kind of explain it for everybody.
Paulita Pappel
Yeah, so, what happened is after I did a lot of queer DIY porn for no money, really just for the politics of it, and really for about my personal experience. So but after a while, I realised like, oh, I can actually earn money with this as I would [crosstalk]
Hannah Witton
As you should!
Paulita Pappel
Exactly. No, but because of my profile, kind of I landed in this like, Girl Next Door kind of porn, which is, you know, there's a lot of problematic issues with this concept of the girl next door.
Hannah Witton
Just like get typecast just based on how you look.
Paulita Pappel
Exactly. And it's really these like, yeah, white thing young woman, you know, there's a lot of normative concepts of beauty to it, and so on and so forth. Anyway, however, that was where I kind of like fitted. And I got a lot of jobs in this field that it's called, generally amateur porn, right? Which I think is it's a - it's a difficult name, because I think it's misleading, because I'm amateur literally mean something that you do as a hobby. Right? So it's like, not your profession. Yeah. Now, nowadays, 2021, there are so many companies and folks and people and couples doing porn professionally, like as their means of living. So I actually we like to call it documentary porn. Just because I feel that really explains much better what it actually is, which is that, okay, there's no script, there's no roles, nobody's like playing, you know, putting up an act. It's actually just documenting something that is there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because if anything, like you're saying it's professionals, but the aesthetic and the search term that people are looking for is amateur.
Paulita Pappel
Exactly. Which is conflict, it's always conflict before we get into this terrain, there's this whole questions about authenticity. And so we can get into that. The thing for me was like, so I was this girl next door and yeah, that was that was actually some of the problem, like a lot of the companies would expect me to behave and dress in some way. And even, like, have these very clear rules of like how you're supposed to be. And, you know, it was supposed to be like, super real, authentic sexuality. And it was like, definitely, totally not what my sexuality was about. So I was like, "Okay, but how, like, how do you actually capture, you know, the sexuality that happens between two people like without - when there's not a camera there?" So that was kind of like my question that I was going for. And like, I was working at Ursus back then and with like, another colleague, and we were, you know, asking ourselves these questions and we can kind of like with a solution that we said, okay, the closest you can get is, if you have two people that actually have a relationship going on with each other, whatever, however, they define the relationship, right, if they're, like, married with kids, or just casual lovers or whatever, but they do have sex in their private life so they know each other's bodies. You know, they've had sex before, they enjoy having sex with each other. And then you give them a camera in their hands, leave them in the comfort of their private, you know, sphere, and just tell them like, "hey, there's no rules. Just record whatever you want to do, whatever is fun." And that's kind of how the idea of Lustery came to be because he was like, "Okay, let's try this. Let's try - we can create, basically an archive of love, relationships and sex." That's what we're doing for the last five years.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And so would you describe the the videos on Lustery as amateur porn? Or are they like homemade professional porn? Like - yeah.
Paulita Pappel
I would say - I mean Lustery is very homemade. It's really like I would say like 70 to 80% of our couples are not doing it professionally. It's really - a lot of them, it's really the very first time they're shooting a video when they're shooting for Lustery. Yeah. So it's really like a lot of their motivation is also like exploring their own sexuality and being part of this community. So I would say it's more - that's why I like to call it either homemade or documentary part, because it's really documenting the life, the sex life of these folks. We do have however, I'd say like 20 to 30% of couples that actually do this as - I mean, they are a real couple, they're having sex the way they want to, but they're, like, they've decided that they want to do this for a living, and they're doing it on a regular basis, and they're getting really good at it. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I feel like I've seen some couples who, like have a clean YouTube channel where they like vlog and like, document their life and do just like normal, like lifestyle vlog videos. And then they'll have like, behind a paywall, like, an adult version, where it's like, basically the exact same video, but just in the middle, they have sex.
Paulita Pappel
Exactly. And I mean, to be honest, I love that. I mean, for me, like, they're the new sex sexfluencers, right? Like, they're new sex influencers, Like we have, like one of our new couples, Lola and James, they're exactly like that. They do amazingly beautiful videos, you know, showing - I mean, they have amazing lives, because they're, you know, they're living their life travelling around and just doing surf and having fun. It's really it's really inspirational, actually. But yeah, they do that kind of thing, you know, they'll shoot a video where they're travelling around, you know, surfing, doing whatever. And then they're like, going sneaking into a corner of the beach and having a quickie. But that part you can obviously only see either at their own channel or at Lustery.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. And I'm curious about the kind of more behind the scenes of like for the people - like for the couples and the people who are uploading to Lustery, because obviously, like, when you work in this space, very much like to encourage people to pay for your porn. And so Lustery has a subscription model, so in order to, like, get access to the videos you have to pay. And so what is the process for the performers? So like, with the screening process of uploading videos, like do you check all of the videos to make sure that everything is like aboveboard in terms of like consent? And like, age, as well? And then like, do they get paid like, depending on like, how many views their videos get and stuff like that?
Paulita Pappel
Exactly. No, they don't. So the process - for us it's really, really important. So last year was a curated collection of videos, right? So like, say, say, if you have a Tube, or say whatever, other platforms like many vids, they leave out of like mass production, they have 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of videos, right? For us, it's like, we have less videos, but those videos are curated, which means they have a certain technical quality, standard. Last they've all been reviewed. So every couple that works for Lustery, gets, you know, we check, they're, of course, their IDs to prove that they're over 18 of course. We have - we support them also, we really help them and support them while creating their videos. So they make the best out of it.
So they have support, they can, you know, they talk to us, they can ask us, maybe they want, we give them - based on their camera tests, we give them feedback. And then what happens is they get pay for video, and everyone gets paid the same. And it doesn't matter, as you were saying, it doesn't matter when it clicks or views, or likes or even, like, you know, what you're doing sexually. Because what we want is them - for them to be doing what they really want to do, right? So then if there would be like a money incentive, you'd be like, "Oh, if you do anal you're going to get more or whatever," they maybe, they might, you know, be enticed, which is you know, fine. But you know, they would be enticed to be doing something that maybe it's not really their thing. So we're - that's why our salaries, like, we pay the same. We have different video formats, like, you can do a vlog as you were saying, so a longer video where you travel abroad or show a day in your lives. And of course, you get paid more for that because it's a longer video and it takes more time to create. Or you can do a quickie or a moment, which is really just like a very, like five to 10 minutes but it's in the middle of sex, it's like a moment in your sex, which you'll get paid less for because it's, you know, it's really just the moment, right? But again, it's not like - that's the, like, the different prices that we pay and we pay up front so the moment you give us - we approve the video, you get paid.
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah. Nice. Oh my God, I wish YouTube would be like that, because it's like, oh, how much work - like it's paying for the work rather than paying for, like, its popularity. And things like that.
Paulita Pappel
I mean, it's, it's tricky, right? Because we live in a like, right now we live in this virtual world where everything is likes and popularity and so on and so forth and that's what like the new economy, I think, in a way we're trying to democratize, maybe a little bit. I don't want to go into like, political dangerous territory. But I do think, like, I do think there is, you know, there are norm beauty standards in the porn industry. And you know, some people do, I mean, this is just the way it is, people do get paid more because of how they look, right. And therefore, you know, say someone that is not maybe fitting those beauty, normative standards is gonna have a harder time like also promoting themselves, is also going to have a harder time even again, social media, because just because some certain folks gets deleted more often that than others. And that's a problem and that's discrimination. So that's kind of like a little bit, what we're trying to work against is being like, hey, we want - we're trying to create a community that is inclusive, that is diverse, as much as possible. Of course, we also depend another applications that we receive and the videos that we receive, but we are at least trying to have, you know, as many different backgrounds and body sexuality, sexual practices and interest as we can so as to show like, how diverse - how diverse, the sexual humanity is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love that. I think that's so important. So kind of shifting gears a bit, you're a curator for Berlin's porn film festival. I've never been to a porn film festival. So you're gonna have to, like, run me through, like, what happens at them? Because obviously, the first question that came to my mind was like, well, when you're like, in the screenings, and like watching films, like what if you just get really horny? Like do you just like have to run home in between every screening just to like have a wank?
Paulita Pappel
I do not know - I've - certainly some people do that, which I think would be totally fine. And I encourage people to do that if that's how they feel. But so the porn film festival Berlin, it's, we have a mixture we don't we do not only show porn. We call it point in festival just because we think it's important to reclaim that word and to expand the meaning of porn also in society, because it's so stigmatised. Actually we show films around you know, sex, sexuality, body politics, but also LGBT, you know, struggles and feminism and so much more. And we show very different formats from from feature films that have run maybe at the other major festivals from Cannes to Berlin, also documentaries, but also experimental films, short films, you know. We really show like a very - yet again = diverse kind of films, but we do also show porn of course, that would be disappointing if not. And I personally love the experience and I really recommend, and I really hope I convinced you for you to come next year.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, when is it?
Paulita Pappel
It's October last week of October.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay. Right. Maybe.
Paulita Pappel
You have time to plan it. No excuse.
Hannah Witton
Can I bring a baby? Probably not.
Paulita Pappel
You can.
Hannah Witton
If it's - they're asleep.
Paulita Pappel
Yeah, exactly. People under 18 are not allowed in the cinemas. But if it's a baby and it's they're not getting anything - basically. We do not have like a kindergarten but.
Hannah Witton
is there a creche somewhere at the porn film festival where I can leave my child whilst like go watch some porn?
Paulita Pappel
It is not the first time that people have actually asked us actually for like a baby room or something.
Hannah Witton
Right? I think that's a legit question.
Paulita Pappel
We're gonna consider this. We didn't have the capacities or the space until now but let's consider it for next year.
Hannah Witton
I will try my best.
Paulita Pappel
Watching porn together with a roomful of people is such a different thing and I think - I mean it doesn't have to be your thing, if don't like it, fine, but I think at least try it once because we have this idea said that watching point is like something that you do alone, you know in your house, ideally in like dark lights with your computer and then you like close your computer really quick once you've like wanked or something, and enjoying like indulging in like a full longer movie with 100 people around you and like you know laughing with them and maybe getting horny with them but really having this like immersive experience where you're celebrating sexuality, I find it so empowering and liberating. Even again, it might - even if it's maybe awkward, I think just for once experiencing it and being like "Oh, okay, this is this is how it could be," you know? Porn could be something that we are not ashamed of, that we're just - you can like it, dislike it, whatever. What we try to do is we always bring like filmmakers, performers, and people so there's always a q&a after the film. So the audience gets a chance to talk to the people, to ask questions, and to really see that okay, everyone doing porn also is, you know, just perfectly normal human beings that you can speak to and I think that really humanises also the industry.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that's really interesting you say that about like, moving away from watching porn being only this kind of like solitary experience where it does involve masturbation, because it just reminded me of like, actually with some of my friends, who I do very openly talk about these things with, and we were all hanging out one time, and I just remember being like, "Oh, you have to see this, like, porn video that I watched recently," and actually, like, showing it to them and - like with their consent, obviously - and so like sitting around and watching it, and it being like, such a different experience to like, when I watched it when I was like, by myself, and almost like, having other people around did, for me, make me less horny. So it wasn't actually as much of an issue as I thought it would be. But it was just really interesting that there was something so strange about all of us, like, watching people have sex, and then also just being like, you're here. Like, friends, hello? Discuss? But it's just not a scenario -
Paulita Pappel
"We're gonna talk about it in a very intellectual way."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, if we just - if we discuss this, and we pretend it's like a porn book club then... Oh, my God, a porn book club.
Paulita Pappel
Such a good idea. Oh, my god. Yes. Can I steal it? Or can we do it together?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I - you free to, free to take it, have like a, like a porn discussion group.
Paulita Pappel
Imagine what a different world it would be if that would be something that not just you and me because we do it, but like everyone would do it. Like, "Oh, my god, I watched this point the other day, it's really good. You should watch it." You know, and it would be just like, the same way that I'm like, "Oh, I saw this documentary the other day. It was really interesting. Maybe, you know, maybe you will find it also interesting." Like, it just such a shift on like, the way we we deal with sexuality and like how, you know, this impulse on sexuality that so it needs to be something that is private. You know, I think it's very important what you said like, of course, you shouldn't, you know, send something without the consent. Because that would be invasive and inappropriate. But just the fact that if we could just speak openly about and you could still be like, "Oh, no, it doesn't really sound like my cup of tea, thanks. Please do not send that to me again." "Oh, okay, sorry." Okay, fine.
Hannah Witton
"But if you do come across anything that features these things, then let me know."
Paulita Pappel
Exactly, and they're like, "Okay, good. Noted."
Hannah Witton
Good to know, exactly. Okay, we have like a whole bunch of questions from our audience, our listeners on Instagram. And yeah, I want to put them to you. They're really they're really interesting. So somebody asked, as a consumer of porn, how can I be more conscientious?
Paulita Pappel
That's a really good question. And rule number one, pay for your porn. I think you already said this before, But every time someone asked me, like, "How can I know that what I'm consuming, you know, it's not being created in a way that is exploitive, or harming or whatever?" I'm like, "Just pay for it." If you're paying for it, chances are, you know, production was fine. And people were paid. So, you know, and it was like a certain standard of production that was like, you know, had some involved contracts and discussions, and you know, all that should be always involved. So I think that's the most important thing. And if you want to go super sure. And also, if you want to support the people in the industry, go on social, like, follow the people that you like, because nobody's - everyone is in there. And we're all getting shadow banned and blocked and deleted. So if you follow us, if you retweet or repost the stuff that we're posting, you're gonna, you know, make - you're gonna support us being more visible and having a wider reach.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and if it's directly also financially supporting performers that you like, as well, because a lot of them will have like, an OnlyFans or maybe even a Patreon or, or just like a, like, donate to my PayPal.
Paulita Pappel
PayPal.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, there's, there's lots of different ways. Are there any like - so say, you're, like a really broke student, and you don't have a porn budget. Is the best way - the kind of like, the way that wouldn't cost you any money - would it be like the social media support? And like, it's tricky, because also like, it depends how public your social media profiles are. And if, if that would be appropriate for you, depending on like your work or like the people who follow you. So everyone get a secret account support all of your favourite.
Paulita Pappel
Even on social, right, like completely free ways, also speaking up in certain social situations, like say - I mean, of course, it's also - maybe you don't want to make a point of how great porn is at Christmas dinner with family, but still, like I'm sure there's situations, say the poor student, like say at the university if there's a situation where people are, you know, making a joke about... could be anything, you know, sex workers, whores, porn performers, and they're, you know, reproducing, like really cliches that just reproduce stigma? Say something, you know, speak up. Or if people are, you know, making jokes of someone that has watched porn, like whatever it is, it's something that is like talking about something and it's really just reproducing stupid cliche that has is founded on nothing other than stigma and prejudice, speak up and still be like "Hey, just that what you're saying is a) not true, b) harmful to our full community, and c) even harmful to yourself and to all of us because you're reproducing like very sex negative standards." You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Another thing I thought of was there's so many like sex writers out there who publish, like their own, like smutty written porn, like even just like for free on their blogs and stuff. So that's a great way to be able to like access ethical free porn, because also it's written as well. So like, there's no like, "Oh, is this performer enjoying this?" Like, you don't have to like, worry about that whilst also getting off. Somebody asked: tips and tricks for making homemade porn?
Paulita Pappel
Oh, nice. This is a nice one, I love that. I haven't seen that question in a while. So first of all, natural light is your best friend. If you're just starting-
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Paulita Pappel
Yes. If you're just starting to do this, don't bother getting like super expensive equipment that you're not really gonna know how to use. Just really try to get yourself a bright room. That's I think, number one, do we all look the best in natural light.
Hannah Witton
So basically have sex in the middle of the day in front of a massive window!
Paulita Pappel
Exactly! But not in direct sunlight, because if you point your camera at direct sunlight, you're gonna have to too big of a contrast and it's not gonna look good.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, overcast, you want a beautiful, overcast day.
Paulita Pappel
Exactly. Then -
Hannah Witton
You just like look out of the window and be like, "Honey, today is a great day to make some porn."
Paulita Pappel
"Let's get to it." Then as you're saying talk to your partner, obviously, and make sure that you both understand what this means and what you want to do with this, if it is something that you're gonna do for yourself. So clarify the consent beforehand, right? Make sure that you're on the same page in terms of like, what's gonna happen with that video before you shoot it. And then I would really say, take your time, don't rush. If the moment isn't right, you know, leave it for a time where it does feels right. Which will sound like - really, what I tell our couples is like, don't try to show what you think people want to watch or what you think like what you've seen before that looked good. Try to find what you like, see what I mean? So because chances are, if you're having sex with your partner, you know what you like already, you know how their face looks, or how their, I don't know, their feet thrill when they orgasm or like, whatever it is. So go for those things that you know from your own body and the other person's body and your chemistry and try to capture that instead of trying to like imitate or you know, like, imitate something else that you've seen. Try to find your own experience, because I feel I think that's gonna make it feel just authentic and that's going to have a special magic, even if it doesn't look like perfect, which is probably not going to do at the beginning when you start shooting. It's still gonna have like an atmosphere and an intensity and a chemistry that is going to make the video really special and beautiful.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And if you are making it just for you, think about, like, what do you want to watch back?
Paulita Pappel
Make your - make porn that is like, perfectly tailored to your preferences.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And this question is kind of connected to that: advice for people wanting to do DIY porn and do it safely. So maybe in this instance, they are thinking about uploading it somewhere.
Paulita Pappel
So I would say, well, first of all, really think about the consequences of doing porn and putting it out there. Every time a couple comes to us, and are like, "We're not really sure what if we change our mind later? Can we take it down?" I'm like, you know what? Don't. Like if you're not, yeah, this is what you want to do. Like, I mean, it breaks my heart because of course I want everybody doing porn if they want, you know, what I mean? But I'm like, really like as someone that has faced stigma, has had to confront their family, and so on and so on, if you're not 100% sure that you can - what I always ask is ask yourself these questions. What if the last person you want to see this video ends up seeing this video? You know, that might be your mom, your boss, or whoever it is? And then what would you do? If your answer is like, "Oh my god, I will kill myself." Like, okay, don't. You know? Then don't put it out there. If their answer is like, "Okay, that would be annoying. And it would be like a very awkward conversation and I might have to face these things, but you know, I'll get over it and we'll be fine." I'm like, okay, then you're, then you're good to go. Right? Because you've thought about it. You've pictured like worst case scenario, and you can deal with that. So that's, that's the first step I think.
And then If you're going to do porn with other people, make sure those other folks also have gone through this process of being like, okay, am I really understanding what are the consequences of this, am I aware and am I ready to live with this consequences. So then everyone's on the same page. You might - if you're shooting with your partner, I think it makes it a little bit easier maybe to have conversations. If you're shooting with someone that is not your partner, that is someone that you just hook up with, create for creating porn - which is also perfect, totally valid option - you should really make sure that you have a contract, and that you at least put down in writing like where is this video gonna go, who's gonna get the money from it, you know, what platforms are okay, and what not. And that requires you of course to have had a thought about that, like, where do you want your video to be and what platforms. Thing is, once you put it out there, chances are, it's going to end up all over the place and you're not going to have control over it. Still, you still can try, right? And be like, okay, maybe I want to be say, I want to have an OnlyFans but I don't want to be on PornHub. Or I want to be on ManyVids or whatever it is, you know, up to you. But just like I would say inform yourself of the different platforms and options that you have. There's a lot right now, especially after the OnlyFans catastrophe. Like there's so many other platforms, you know, that are better. I've seen that they're welcoming sex workers and not like hiding.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, do you have any recommendation?
Paulita Pappel
Yeah, I think that there's like FanCentro? Well, ManyVids obviously, it's been forever there. What else? I'm not an expert, so I don't want to say anything and then like - but yeah, I know for - I mean, I know the folks at FanCentro, I know they're really cool. Well, of course, Lustery goes without saying. And also ManyVids. I think those are addresses where you're definitely, like, safe. As in like these are platforms that were created for sex workers. So they're, you know, you don't have - you're not at risk that at any moment, they might kick you off there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. The like, "Ahhh, we don't like your presence here anymore. Not brand friendly."
Paulita Pappel
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Paulita Pappel
Which has been a problem with so many platforms in the past, right, from Patreon, Tumblr, so on and so forth.
Hannah Witton
In terms of trying to have like some semblance of control over like, where your content ends up, do you ever see people like watermarking their videos? Is that a common practice?
Paulita Pappel
Yes, that is a common practice. I think that's - I think it's very clever to do, I think everyone should do it. However, disclaimer, that does not really mean that your video's not gonna end up being pirated. You know what I mean? Like, it just means that at least -
Hannah Witton
But it gives you like a sense of proof of that - when it does get reuploaded somewhere else you have, like, I guess, some kind of proof that that was done without permission.
Paulita Pappel
Definitely. And I think, you know, the internet is getting a little bit better in terms of DMCA takedowns, and so on. Like, 10 years ago, you know, there was like, no way of protecting and it was like, "No, you're doing porn. Well. You're out there." But now slowly, there's more and more - companies also, that if you have - they're expensive, I mean, but if you're bigger, and you have a budget, you could, you know, consider paying a company that actually runs checks, and takes the private videos down.
Hannah Witton
I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on like - cuz Pornhub - was it the beginning of this year? - they put out their like, Transparency Report, like after, like, the complete shit show like at the end of last year. And, yeah, I wondered if you had read that and like what you thought of it, because they were claiming that they were going to be taking, like, copyright infringement, like much more seriously, but I've not really heard much since then. And if they've like, followed through on that.
Paulita Pappel
Well, I have to say, so the whole Pornhub thing is huge, to be honest. I have to say on their defense that yes, they did take down literally like three quarters of their whole videos that were up there - like, given - way too late, you know, I wish they would have done that. years ago when they started. Or I wish they wouldn't have started basing their business on piracy in the first place, you know what I mean? However, as much as I think, you know, that's a problem. What happened last year was orchestrated by religious organisations. So this whole petition trafficking hub that was supposedly run by groups that called themselves not religious, they are literally religious groups have been working against porn for over 50 years, like NCOSE, which is called like a National Centre of Sexual Exploitation used to be called Morality in Media, you know? They've all like literally rebranded themselves because, you know, nowadays if you say like, "Oh, porn is a sin," nobody cares. So they've realised like, "Okay, the whole like the way that we're going against porn like nobody cares anymore." So the new way they do it now is by saying, "Oh, porn is a new - it's like a drug, porn is addictive." Or what they did with Pornhub, which was creating this huge fuss and getting someone - Nicholas Kristof - to write an article on The New York Times, which was, terribly not factual. And like really a shame for journalism in general, like forever. Basically, just saying, like, "Oh, PornHub is, you know, full of CSN - Child Sexual Abuse material, right?" Which is just not exactly true. So like, they were pretending like PornHub was, like, wanted to have the material there and they were like, exploiting that material. PornHub did not have more of that material than say, any other platforms, such as Facebook, or Reddit, or whatever, you know. So the reason is like -
Hannah Witton
I remember, yeah, I do remember seeing like a counter argument to it, which was like, you don't see these groups coming after Facebook for the exact same thing. Yeah.
Paulita Pappel
And that is - so yeah, so long story short, sorry, it's like a longer story because I was really - but long story short, like, we do need to be very careful when there's like mass media suddenly, like, literally lynching like a porn company, even if - for example, me personally, I'm not aligned, or I've never been aligned with the business model, or ways of working of Mindgeek, I still do not approve of what happened there. Because what happened was not something that was, you know, for trying to help things workers rights or copyright. It was really trying to shut down pornography in general.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's an interesting one, because you see this thing play out across all different areas of the sex industry of there being these, like, right wing, often religious groups that just want to see the sex industry, like, abolished, like completely disappear. But like you said, they have to use these different tactics - often "won't somebody think of the children" - in order to kind of try and get what they want? I mean, the sex industry is not going anywhere. But like you said, it ends up harming sex workers and their livelihoods. And actually, yeah, it does more harm to like consenting adults who do this for a living. Yeah. Wild.
Paulita Pappel
Really wild. Yeah. So be careful - always beware of those arguments, like "who thinks of the children" and sex trafficking are the two key words that every, as you were saying, like right wing or religious organisation will use in order to try to shut the whole sex industry down.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because those are two things that if you consider yourself to be someone with like - a good person, you'd be like, "Well, of course, I care about the safety of children. Of course, I'm against sex trafficking." So they use it in a way that you're like, "Oh, well, of course, I'm against those things." But actually, it's really manipulative, because those organisations often do not actually help sex trafficking victims. That's not where their resources are going. And they're not helping like minors who are victims of abuse and exploitation. They literally - they have one mission, one mission only, which is destroy the sex industry.
Paulita Pappel
Yeah. Yeah, what you're doing is, yeah, creating stigma, distributing wrong information, like misinforming public opinion, and misinforming politics, and creating really, really harmful legislation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. It's so true. And actually, this is not what we're talking about here. But you see the same thing and the same kind of, kind of like, behind the scenes, like you wouldn't know, like, organisations like funding these movements at play when it comes to the attack on trans rights, especially like in the UK right now. It's the same rhetoric. It's thee like "Won't somebody think of the children?" It's yeah, different, different issue, but like, same kind of thing going on behind the scenes in terms of us being manipulated into kind of basically turning our backs on some of the most vulnerable people in society. Not fun. What a - what a tangent.
Hannah Witton
On a lighter note, somebody on Instagram asked: what are some good ways to introduce porn into your sex life with a partner?
Paulita Pappel
Ooh, that's a great question as well. I like that. I think as we were talking before, definitely start by finding a moment where you're both chill. There's like a relaxed moment and there's not like, you know, you're not in the middle of a fight or whatever. But also like find the right space where both of you are in a good place to talk about - to bring up such a topic? And I would say, ask. I think the easiest - I mean my advice would be the easiest way to approach it is ask, like, "Do you - hey, do you watch porn? Do you like to watch porn? Would you be interested in watching porn together? Or have you ever considered this? Have you ever fantasised about?" I think everything that is like an open question would be a good approach. And I think one important thing is like, be ready to get a no for an answer also. Because that might happen and that's, you know, a shame. But you still also have to - the same way that you don't want to be judged because of asking and proposing that to your partner, you also don't want to be judging your partner for like, "Actually, it's something that I really don't want." You know, you might want to then go like, "Okay, you don't want it full stop, ever, let's not talk about this ever again, or you do not want it right now? Or, you know, can we have this conversation maybe at a later point?" Or whatever, whatever. You could follow up like that. But you do need also to respect like whatever the answer is for your partner.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's not necessarily just going to be like one conversation, because if you've never talked about porn in your relationship before, the first conversation might just be like, "What do you think about porn? Like, have you ever watched it?" And then it might be a conversation later down the line that's like, "What do you think about watching together?" Like if those conversations went well, or went in a certain direction. Because you can definitely have like, situations where both or everyone in the relationship like watches porn and knows about it, and like, is happy to talk about it, but it's private for them. And they're like, "This is actually part of my private sex life. And I don't feel like I need to bring it to be like a part of like, something that we do together." Or maybe it is.
Paulita Pappel
Absolutely, it's tricky. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Somebody said: I've not found many disabled people in feminist porn. Why? Where can I find them?
Paulita Pappel
That's a really great question. And it is true that say, people with functional diversity, it's not, it's some of - it's some part of the community that is not overly represented. I want to recommend a really amazing documentary film. It's not actually porn, but just because I think it's such a it's such a great documentary. It's called Yes, We Fuck. And it's about, you know, sexual activism, or activism from people with a functional diversity in the realm of sexuality. And it's really, really empowering and super, yeah. Like, I just love that film. There is definitely porn being made by folks with disabilities. And I want to really drop some names, but I'm the worst person at name dropping. So I would love to come back to you and put it in the show notes or something?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, let me know!
Paulita Pappel
Because there are some really amazing folks doing really beautiful stuff?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we can put some in the show notes. And one of the things that I've come across is that often people, disabled people who are in porn, often you might find more of them on like cam websites. Because of their disability, it might mean that they're not able to like, go to as many like other locations to shoot porn, but they can do it from the comfort of their home on their own schedule, you know, when they're when they're feeling up for it. Because that's one of the reasons why a lot of sex workers might be disabled as well, because like, the structure of traditional work doesn't fit around their health. Yeah, and like the kind of like self shooting stuff as well.
Hannah Witton
This kind of goes back to kind of what we were talking about before in terms of like, trying to do it as safely as possible, because somebody asked: do you ever encounter any couples who regretted their decision to share videos of themselves?
Paulita Pappel
That's an also good question? So as I was saying before, we really try to make sure that people are 100%, again, aware of what the consequences are, aware of that they might, you know, break up, that they might, for whatever reasons, not want to have those videos. So whenever - we give that information in written form, we have it on the FAQs, we've you know, we've really tried to make a big deal out of it. And so far, I mean, we have over 300 couples on Lustery and so far, I think we've had like one or two cases where people actually regretted it. And interestingly enough, it had - it did have to do more with other reasons. And it was - it had to do more about like the own gender representation of one of the people involved, for example, maybe, and them not feeling anymore, you know.
Hannah Witton
Like, connected to that version of themselves.
Paulita Pappel
Exactly. But it's been an interesting discussion, because that means we find conversations around that with these couples. Yeah, like, at the end of the day, of course, if someone is like, you know, would be regretting it, especially if say someone would be like, in danger because of what they did, I mean, for example, it would be facing like, whatever consequences, like, obviously we'll take it down. But however, we do try again to just to have this conversation before doing it and being like, make really sure that you want to have it up. That if whatever happens, even if you break up, even if you grow older, if like whatever happens in your life, that you're still gonna feel confident and proud of what you did back then.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And somebody asked: tips on how to get into the business slash where to start. Now, I don't know if this person wants to be a performer, or they want to be like, on the behind the scenes production side, but maybe you can give us kind of like, an overview of what kind of different jobs there are available in the industry and how to kind of get involved if they want to.
Paulita Pappel
Yeah, that's a - it's a tricky one. It's funny, because I get, I mean, I get like, 1000s of these messages, but usually they're from, yeah, they're like, "Man, how can I get into porn." Like, hmm. But no, but but I do also get messages when people are genuinely interested in being behind the scenes as well. So here's one thing: the industry is not huge. So it isn't - it's not - in a way, it's not so hard to find a way in because you - I think the most important thing is that you make - that you clarify what do you want? So, you know, do you want- do you generally want to do something behind the camera? So meaning, like do you want to do camera, do you want to be a production assistant, and these are all jobs that are like film jobs, you know, and the best way is to start, you know, being a runner on set. The same way that you would like, work your way up in the film industry, right. But I think it's really a question of like, do you really want to work or do you just really curious and want to take a look behind the scenes. I think that's fair. And I think if you're coming from a place where you want to be ethical, you should really ask yourself that question and answer it, honestly. And if you just want to have a look, then, you know, then you should be upfront with that. And then you should be like, "Well, actually, I just wanna have a look, you know, and for getting that look, I'll be a runner for one day just to -"
Hannah Witton
Right, I see.
Paulita Pappel
Or support something, a project, you know, maybe a DIY low budget project, just for getting insight into it. So but yeah, once you've like, decided what you want to do, do you want to be a performer, Do you wanna, you know, work behind the cameras, whatever, then I think you should search for the companies or - or it doesn't have to be companies - or the kind of porn that you are most interested in. So we were saying before, you want to, you know, do you want to be involved with a queer feminist DIY no budget porn? Or do you want to have, you know, it's your aspiration to end up in LA in glamcore super fancy stuff? Like, what is it that you want, you know, and then like, then you should approach the companies or people that are working in that area. And I think, I think that's the best way, right, approaching people. And then like, offering whatever you're bringing on. If you go into this more amateur, you know, documentary, style of porn, you might, you know, start working on your own videos. And then when you feel like you've got a little bit of an audience, a little bit of a following and a little bit of content, then you may may start asking for content rate shootings with other people.
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah.
Paulita Pappel
That's a way of getting in. Or, again, if you want to, if what you want is work with bigger productions, whatever, if it's in front or behind the camera, then you go and approach the companies that are creating the porn that you like, and where you feel that it's going to fit what you want to be doing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also, because, like you said, it is just a version of like, just a film industry. And so there's like every job that you can think of from like, marketing and like social media and stuff as well. Or maybe, maybe you want to be an usher at the Berlin Porn Film Festival,.
Paulita Pappel
We're always taking in volunteers, so please apply.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Oh, well, Paulita, thank you so much. This has just been a wonderful chat. Thanks so much for sharing everything with us. Please let us know: where can people find you online? Where can people find Lustery and all of your other projects?
Paulita Pappel
Thank you so much. It was really fun talking to you. I could keep on talking for hours. If I am of course on social on IG and Twitter as paulitapappel. Lustery is is Lustery.com. We're on Twitter LusteryHQ and on Instagram LusteryPOV, which by the way, Lustery POV is our blog. So if you're not quite ready to jump into the porn but you wanna get a little bit of an insight into what we do that is safe for work. You can find a lot of like articles.
Hannah Witton
Oh, good to know. Yeah.
Paulita Pappel
Yeah, and advice pages and so on. Yeah, that's, that's us, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Oh, well, thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. Bye.