Owning Your Sexuality and Overcoming Shame as a South Asian Woman with Sangeeta Pillai | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: Shame, homophobia, and domestic abuse.
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing it, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy with me, your host, Hannah Witton. In this week's episode I am joined by Sangeeta Pillai. Sangeeta is a South Asian feminist activist and podcaster who runs Soul Sutras, a network for South Asian women, which talks about all things considered taboo in South Asian culture, from periods to sex. porn, mental health and more, and encourages more South Asian women to talk about these parts of life too. As part of Soul Sisters, Sangeeta to also runs the Masala Monologue workshops where she brings South Asian women together to discuss these topics and write and perform their own personal monologues. Sangeeta also hosts the Masala Podcast where she is joined by another South Asian woman each episode and they discuss a topic that is taboo in South Asian communities, including being LGBTQ+, divorce, contraception, female pleasure and more. She's actually currently working on the next season, which will be out in spring-ish time. So that'll be perfect timing for you to listen to whilst I'm on a break for maternity leave, so you won't be left without your sex podcasts.
Sangeeta is such an empowering voice for South Asian and all women and so I couldn't wait to talk with her. We spoke about how to own your sexuality, the impact of colonisation on Indian sexuality, what the Kama Sutra is really about, and some harder topics including shame surrounding South Asian women's sexuality, homophobia and abuse. So please do bear in mind that some content may be challenging to listen to and please always look after yourself as a priority. I really enjoyed this chat and learning more about how cultural identity and the process of unlearning is such a big part of how South Asian women experience sex and their bodies. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really appreciated. And without further ado, here is the magnificent Sangeeta Pillai.
Sangeeta, welcome to the podcast. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here.
Sangeeta Pillai
Thank you so much for having me. I'm a huge fan of your work. I think we've met once or twice in various sex positive circles. So it's an absolute joy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, thanks for agreeing to this. I'm so excited to like, dive into all of the work that you do. And speaking of which, do you want to just kind of like, introduce Soul Sutras a platform and then also, Masala Podcast and Masala Monologues, like all of the different projects that you've got going on?
Sangeeta Pillai
Absolutely. So I run a network with other Asian women called Soul Sutras, which is all about tacking taboos in our culture, in South Asian culture. So everything from sex to periods to mental health to porn to you name it. There's lots of things we do not talk about as South Asians. And what I'm trying to do is get us to talk about it. So I run Masala Podcast as part of it, which is what - I've had three seasons. So each episode is an interview with an amazing South Asian woman and we pick a taboo topic. It might be porn, some of her top Asian porn stars, or might be mental health experts. And then I talk about my experiences growing up in India, moving to the UK and kind of balancing these dual identities and that taboo in my own life. So that's what the podcast is about. I also run a series of workshops, called Masala Monologues, where I've had South Asian women come in, and we talk to each other about our kind of life experiences around a different topic. And I've coached them on how to write a monologue. We've taken that into two pieces of theatre, we've done two shows with that. I also do kind of other workshops around sexuality and sexual pleasure. So that's the kind of breadth of the work I do.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. And you mentioned that you were born in India. And so like, considering your background and you're saying like, these two identities that you have, and also like dealing with a lot of these taboos yourself, how did you get to where you are now? So like, how did you learn about sex and your body? Like, what was that like for you growing up?
Sangeeta Pillai
So I grew up in a very traditional family in Mumbai, like I was the first woman in my family to have a job so that tells you how kind of my family are. And they were trying to give me married off when I was about 18, 19, 20s. So that's, you know, girl kind of gets to that age, you get her married off and then she's her husband's problem. So that's kind of how I grew up. But yeah, basically it is our husbands problem, quote unquote. And I just grew up very different. I don't know why. I think it's maybe the books I read, or just the person I was. And I started kind of discovering about sexuality - you won't believe it - from women's magazines, because there was no sources. So there was no internet, because I'm that old, so we didn't have access to Google like it is today.
Hannah Witton
But honestly, that's really interesting that like, we had similar experiences in that sense -
Sangeeta Pillai
Really?
Hannah Witton
- of like me in the UK, like, with women's magazines, because it was one of the only like, acceptable places for sex to be talked about.
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly. And it's an interesting, like, I read those kind of agony aunt sex columns -
Hannah Witton
Love 'em!
Sangeeta Pillai
- when someone would write and say, "Oh, I've got such and such issue." And I'm like, what is that? And I had no idea or conception of what sex was about. And I remember putting the pieces of the jigsaw together. And one day I'm like, "Oh my God, there's this thing that everybody's doing and I never knew about it." And I started looking at all these aunties and uncles on my street thinking, "My God, they do it, they do it, they do it."
Hannah Witton
Just seeing the world so differently now.
Sangeeta Pillai
Yeah, completely differently! So that's kind of how I discovered sex. And from there, kind of, it was just an internal journey, I think, to say that I like my body. I like what it's capable of doing. And I don't buy in to any of this ideology that I was being fed, which is, you know, our bodies don't belong to us, they belong to our husbands when we get married, you know, you got to cover up, you've got to protect yourself, if somebody touches you up, that's your own fault. So these were all messages that I had growing up. So it was a really difficult journey if I'm honest from there to sort of, say, owning my own pleasure, owning my own sexuality, to talking about it. And I think I really got comfortable with that probably in my 40s. And I think I wouldn't have done that before. I think suddenly, I just was confident. I kind of looked in the mirror and I was like, "Okay, this is me." And I looked at my body for the first time thinking, "Oh my God, it's capable of all of this pleasure. Why did nobody tell me this?" So that's kind of my own personal journey towards sex and sexuality.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I'm curious, because I think we can fall into the trap in the west of looking at countries like India, and kind of being like, "Oh, they're so far behind us socially, in terms of these conversations we're having about sex and our bodies." But in fact, colonisation, which was, you know, our fault, my faults - like that, that played a huge role in it. And I was wondering, like, if you could speak on how colonisation has impacted South Asian people when it comes to their experience of sexuality?
Sangeeta Pillai
So definitely, and I think this perception that somehow Asians are backward when it comes to sex isn't true, because the Kama Sutra came from India, in the third century BC. When a lot of Europeans were climbing trees, you know, we were talking about - sorry, if it sounds really offensive, Europeans were climbing trees, but it's my bug bear. India had a tome about sexual etiquette, about how you approached a lover, about - you know, it's such a sophisticated book, and it's not about sexual positions, like most people think. It's about how to have sex like a refined human being. Like you play veena, you know, which is this musical instrument to your lover. You kind of mop her brow when she's sweating. You might -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's a lot about courting as well.
Sangeeta Pillai
There's a lot of courting, a lot of finesse. And it's a very sophisticated book. It's about looking at the moon and talking about poetry. And it's not just about shagging, you know, like there's a huge difference.
Hannah Witton
It's interesting because if you Google Kama Sutra, it's just like, it's literally just sex positions.
Sangeeta Pillai
It's literally sex positions. But that's one chapter. I think that's chapter seven. There are a lot, many chapters, and all of it deals with the other things around sexuality and how to make it - it's like, I don't know, if you got really good at playing the piano, you've got to practice for hours, and you got to get really good and you've got to have, I don't know, flowers on top of the piano stand. And that's what I mean, like, it's a whole art!
Hannah Witton
Set the mood!
Sangeeta Pillai
Set the mood! And it's not just about like getting in there and banging out a tune. You know. So, it's very much that and I think what happened with colonisation is the Victorian morality kind of entered India to a large degree. And even the Kama Sutra, I believe, when they translated it - I think Richard Burton, and I forget the other guy's name.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It was like the late 19th century when it first got translated into English, so like, hundreds, if not thousands of years after Indians had been reading it.
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly. And they had to put pictures in it, which - because they were like, "Oh the audience isn't gonna like this, because it's all just dry words." You know? So they actually added pictures, the illustrations we think of as the Kama Sutra, they're not the Kama Sutra.
Hannah Witton
I didn't know that!
Sangeeta Pillai
They're not actually, they're added because they're like, "Oh, let's just make it easy for people to follow," you know? So I think that kind of morality did affect us as well. And I don't think, you know, I'd love to just say colonisation is behind all the repression in India: I don't think that's true. But it definitely played a part in it. You know, there are things like, you know, in Kerala, where my family come from, I believe women used to not wear blouses like you just wore the sari and you just kind of covered your breasts with the sari. And the British rulers of the time had an issue with that, I think, and that was one of the reasons, and there were other kind of political reasons as well, where they made women cover up. So, you know, it's a complicated history of kind of colonisation, of oppression, of women's rights being taken away. And I think that's kind of what's happened in India particularly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so interesting. I studied history at uni, and I, like, was studying like, sex manuals from like, the late 19th and early 20th century. And so the Kama Sutra came up, because that was around the time that that got translated into English. And I just remember being like, "This is not what Cosmopolitan told me the Kama Sutra was!"
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly, Cosmopolitan - "20 positions from the Kama Sutra", like, sorry, that's not even from that work. And the other thing, I don't know if you knew this, but it's just one of many books that were written at that time. So there's another book called The Ananga Ranga, which is written a couple of hundred years later, for married couples. So how to enjoy each other as if you were like 1000 different partners. So you know, there's a lot of different kind of manuals of that time that were written so people could have very good sex and get really good at it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And, you know, clearly, you had something going on before we even were on the scene and translating and adding, adding all of those little images.
Sangeeta Pillai
Helpful illustrations.
Hannah Witton
I'm curious, what do you think are some of the biggest taboos currently, in modern times, amongst the South Asian community?
Sangeeta Pillai
So sex is a massive, massive taboo. And I think it's got so complicated over the years, particularly for women, because we were taught in from our culture that somehow we hold the honour of our families. That respect comes from not having sex, you know, you keeping your bodies covered, you keep yourself to your partner, the person you marry, and all of these really problematic things. And also connecting shame to sex. Like, if we had desire as women, it was something to be ashamed of. That you would bring shame on your family, dishonour on your family. These are really, really, really problematic things. So I think, for South Asian women, particularly the whole journey, I think, to becoming - to owning their sexuality is a really complicated one. Because they've got to overcome all of this miseducation, really, that has happened in the name of culture. But that is not our culture. If you go back to root culture, it doesn't say any of this. I think somewhere along the line, it's got kind of co-opted for patriarchy, I think, because if you do that, if you keep women in line. If you say, "Hey, woman, if you're having sex, that means you're a dishonourable person," you stay at home, you look after your kids, you look after your husband, and these are the kinds of things, so then women become smaller and quieter, not asking for the things that is their right. So I think that's a huge, huge problem. And taboo, to this day.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's interesting how you say that like women's actions, also kind of bear consequences, or at least kind of, like, reflect on the character of their relatives or their husband or their family and all of that, it's like, it's, you don't belong to yourself.
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly. Your body doesn't belong to you. Your reputation doesn't belong to you. Your honour doesn't belong to you. It is external. This is what we're taught. And by the slightest, you know, thing that we do, we're going to somehow bring dishonour to the rest of the family. And that's such a burden to place on women. So then how do you go from there to sort of saying, "Hey, you know what, I want an orgasm." You know, it's a huge leap, you know, to sort of say, or say - if you're married to say, "Well, husband, you don't really know how to make me come." Or any of these things. It's a long way to then asking for things you need in bed or in life. Because if you've grown up being told all the time that you keep quiet, you don't get to ask the questions, you don't have the power - it's very difficult to take that power back, I think.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, would you say that that's kind of like one of the ways that sex is very different for South Asian women? It sounds like, like - for me, at least, most of my battles were like internal. In terms of - obviously, a lot of it comes from an external place. But practically, there wasn't going to be a lot of like too much pushback, especially like as a white straight cis woman, like exploring my sexuality. But then you're kind of saying that there's just all of these external things that actually like have practical and material impacts on you as well, whilst you're also trying to navigate your own internal, like, sexual journey.
Sangeeta Pillai
Absolutely. Hugely. And just to give you an example, so I run workshops, where I talk to some Asian women about sex. And over and over again, it's the same narrative. It is about shame, it is about hiding sex toys of the back of closets and binbags. It's about you know, never being able to discuss anything sexual or even say that you might be thinking about anything sexual in the home, among your peers, because you're judged. And there are some really, really quite sad and heartbreaking stories, because I think what, you know, we don't really think about is sex isn't just sex, it's about power. So if you take away a woman's sexuality, you're taking away her power. And so many women in my community, they stay in marriages where there is abuse, sexual abuse, because you're told that that's your duty. There are so many people who are emotionally abused, because you're trained to take that as as a norm. So, "Oh, you just have to adjust." It's a huge word in my culture: adjust. Women adjust. So men never adjust, women adjust. So whatever happens, you make yourself smaller, you make yourself fit in, because that's what you were told, it's your role as a woman, you're the woman of the house, you know, so it's hugely, hugely complicated. So in the workshops that I hold, you know, these are the narratives and stories that come up again and again and again. How do we overcome shame? There are women who otherwise might be really bold in other areas of their lives but, you know, to even utter the word orgasm or masturbation is hugely difficult for them. Because again, this all is conditioning, you know, decades and decades, their conditioning, their mother's, their mother's, you know, they carry this stuff with them. So it's incredibly complicated for them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you mentioned the workshops, and the Masala Monologues - are there any stories that really stood out to you?
Sangeeta Pillai
There were a couple. There was a whole series, I mean, what what I took to the show, we did a show in April 2018, I think - a huge thing about hair about kind of how having hair - we're all meant to have like this long, straight hair on our heads, and no hair on our bodies, you know. This kind of, kind of - and somehow we're magically meant to be like that. We're opposed to kind of be be sexual in bed with a husband, but never learn about sex. You know, we're supposed to, you know - and that's something again, that comes up in the workshops, a few of the women were saying, like, "We were told that learning about sex or talking about sex was wrong. It was like, this is not okay. And then somehow, you get married off, and then you're supposed to know how to do this thing." It's like, never learning to drive. And then somebody tells you to drive this like Lamborghini or something, you know, like, how are you supposed to know this?
Hannah Witton
That's so true!
Sangeeta Pillai
Nobody's given you a lesson, nobody's taught you - you're told that that's morally wrong. You know, like anything. So these are the things that come up again, and again. The kind of distress and grief that a lot of women carry, because where they end up in life is very different to what they are taught culturally.
Hannah Witton
Have you been able to do any more of these workshops and putting on the Monologues during the last two years?
Sangeeta Pillai
Well, it's been an interesting two years, isn't it? So I've done a couple of Zoom workshops actually, and one which was pretty exciting for me was the University of Berkeley in California. So at the beginning of the lockdown, they invited me .This is March 2020, just before, you know, everything sort of vanished from the world. I flew over to California and I did some Masala Monologues workshops with the South Asian American women there. And it was amazing because the issues were exactly the same, like the same stuff that we're talking about in the UK, we're talking about, they're talking about the US, because the root culture is exactly the same. So I did another workshop with them this last year, 2021, on Zoom. And, again, it was Masala Monologues, it was taboos, it was coaching them on how to write their taboo down, write their experience down, and in a way find some sort of - not closure, but some sort of, you know, recognition of what had happened.
Hannah Witton
is it like a cathartic release?
Sangeeta Pillai
It's hugely cathartic.
Hannah Witton
Is it kind of like journaling?
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly. It's journaling with me kind of coaching them on how to kind of put it down. I'm gonna say, "What's the beginning, middle, and end," and that's kind of my jab. But it's basically them learning how to put down their experiences on paper, particularly difficult ones. And exactly like you're saying, Hannah, it's cathartic when that happens. So that's the couple of workshops that I've had. And I've had one on owning our sexuality as well on Zoom. So that was another interesting workshop that I did a couple of months ago with a lovely group of Sikh women. So that was really cool.
Hannah Witton
How do you own your sexuality?
Sangeeta Pillai
Well, first by saying that it belongs to you, and not by anybody else, you know, not to anybody else. And that it's not your husband's, it's not your parent's is not your aunties', it's yours. And that learning what your body's capable of is absolutely - it's a wonderful thing, and it's a gift that you've been given. We've all got it. So if you just, you know, using it, and not being bound down by all the kind of conditioning that we've had, I think that's what, that's what it's about.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think part of learning that your sexuality is your own is also learning that other people's sexualities are their own, too. Because in theory, we can be like, you know, "My sexuality is my own" but then still hold a lot of judgement for other people. And we can often like have those two things happening at the same time.
Sangeeta Pillai
Very true. And also culturally, I mean, some things are really difficult, like one of the episodes I had was about being queer in South Asian. That is still hugely difficult in the culture. And on the interview, one of my guests talks about, you know, her aunt saying, "Well, I'd rather you be dead than be could then be queer." So it's a lot of pain and judgement that happens. And again, I think the way I see it is just people's conditioning, you know, they don't know any better. So they kind of lash out at other people, because they've had that happen to them. And I try and take like that as a compassionate view of how people are and our kind of job is to kind of gently educate people and to say, "You know, there are all kinds of ways to be in the world and be sexual in the world, you know."
Hannah Witton
Yeah. You mentioned right at the beginning that you're like the first of your family to work, or the first woman in your family to work. And I'm curious as to like, the intersection there with you and working and also like, learning about sex, and becoming more open about that and trying to shake off a lot of, like, what you were brought up believing? And do you think those two things have a relationship?
Sangeeta Pillai
Oh my God, it's been such a journey, Hannah, just I think - growing up, like I grew up in a very poor family, like I grew up in a slum in Mumbai. And I think the most I could - if you told five year old me, like the most I could think about was, I don't know, to have a job and have my money and make some money on my own. That was like the big dream. And I think going on that path to say, "I'm allowed to have a life that I want, and I don't have to follow everything I've been told." And then slowly, step by step by step, working in advertising for 20 years, moving to the UK, the discovering that talking about sexuality and sex is really, really important, and then going down that path. It's been a massive journey, and it feels like they were little little baby steps. One thing that led to the other led to the other led to the other. And if you, if I go and tell my 5 or 8 year old self, I'd laugh, saying, you know, "That's not even possible." Because how is that possible? Because that was a world that I came from. This is inconceivable, like, utterly inconceivable that I could have this life. And another interesting thing I will think about is that I had to come to the UK and live here to be able to talk about taboos in my culture. Isn't that interesting? You know, so I had to kind of have the freedom and the space I think that we have in this country and the acceptance of various cultures and celebrations of various cultures to be able to then do this because I don't think I'd do this in India. I wouldn't - I don't think I'd have the courage.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow, that's really interesting. Because I was also going to ask in terms of like, do you feel like there are any taboos that you're also working through? Like yourself, still currently? But I guess, yeah, it's that closeness to the culture, I guess it feels a lot more, more visceral. And you've got that kind of like detachment now, a little bit.
Sangeeta Pillai
I do a little bit. But at the end of the day, I'm human, and I'm kind of very much a product of my culture and the world we live in. So I guess for me, it's been, it's been while I've carved up this very independent path. And I'm very unusual for somebody from my culture. But it doesn't come without any baggage. So mine is like, I chose to not have kids. I'm divorced, you know, live on my own. And so I very much sometimes do feel very alone, you know, so these are the choices I've made that led me to this point. So I don't have the big family that a lot of Asian people do. And I do miss it, you know, so there is a part of me - it's not, it's not all happy. I mean, I would do this, again. This is a choice I would make over and over again, because I don't think there was choice, this is who I am. And this is my truth. And I have no choice but to speak my truth. But I think origins have consequences and have you know, you're taking this path instead of that path. So I guess my kind of - I wouldn't say taboo but it's something I battle with is that, you know, the sense of loneliness that I experience a lot. Also leaving my culture, country, friends. And it's a different - while I love being in the UK, that is - I haven't been able to rebuild some of those connections that I had.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's an interesting because I think of loneliness as maybe a more Western, like, problem as well, maybe, because of how kind of like nuclear family oriented our culture is. And so if you don't have that, if you don't have that kind of family structure, it's actually often difficult to connect with other members of your community.
Sangeeta Pillai
It is in a sense, but I like I say this, everything has pluses and minuses. So if you choose the traditional route, and you have a massive family, and all of that, then you've got to kind of stay within the boundaries of that, you can't really do anything. You can't say, "Oh, actually, I want to do this." It doesn't work like that.
Hannah Witton
Because you've got all of these dependents?
Sangeeta Pillai
Yeah, you've got all these rules that you operate within, the boundaries that you operate within. And if you choose to go away from it, like I have, and I guess in some sense, I have chosen a Western life, you know. I live in the West and you know, I operate you know, nobody tells me what to do or not to do, I'm very much responsible for my own actions and you know, all of that. But then within that comes loneliness. I guess I see what you mean, it is because we are taught to just live in these kind of nuclear families and function independently. I suppose it is more of a Western concept. But things are changing everywhere, you know, the nuclear family's starting to happen in India as well, you know, so.
Hannah Witton
Was the choice to not have kids and then also getting a divorce - are those things are also quite taboo in South Asian culture?
Sangeeta Pillai
Massively, my god, if I go into like a gathering, and people say, "Oh, have you got any children?" And I'm like, "No." The first response is that, "Oh, you poor thing." And then if I say, "Actually, I chose not to have kids," oh my god, the reaction can be quite intense.
Hannah Witton
Oh really?
Sangeeta Pillai
Because within our culture, we're supposed to have kids like, that's our primary objective as women is like, what is your point even if you're not having a child? You know, it is sad, you know, nobody will say it that directly, but that's kind of a like, you know, they don't understand that you might choose to not have children because children are considered blessings. And, you know, it's how you kind of carry on in your life. And that's the whole point of being a woman. That's a taboo massively and being divorced also is a taboo. You know, like, you know, I had an unusual marriage and married a white English guy, which in itself was like this huge "Oh my god, what is she doing?" Couple of years later, it didn't work out and kind of I decided to call it quits. And you know, it is a huge taboo even that. Yes.
Hannah Witton
I'm curious just like the reaction of like, your Indian family to your life choices but also like your what you do for a job. You know, all of these conversations about sex that you have.
Sangeeta Pillai
Well, most of my Indian family, my brothers - my mum and dad are no more - and aunties and uncles do not say anything about what I do. So there is complete silence. So if I go into social media and post a picture of a cappuccino that I've had, they'll be like, "Oh my god, that looks amazing." 20 comments saying, "Oh, isn't that amazing?" Anything work-related that I post, it's silence like nobody says anything
Hannah Witton
That they - obviously they see it?
Sangeeta Pillai
Obviously! Of course they see it. So that's their response. And I guess I'm now too old and too loudmouth to listen to anybody. So they can't really say. anything to me So the response is silence. Even getting my life choices before, they were very problematic for my family, you know, refusing to get married was a big deal, because everybody else who was married around me. 21, 22 they were married, they were having children by 25, 26. So that was, you know, it was I don't think it was easy for them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you wish that they would engage with it? Or are you just like -
Sangeeta Pillai
I would - yeah, Hannah, I would love it, you know, because it feels like a lot of this work comes from my own life and my mother's life, and we never had the choices, you know. And my mom had a really difficult life, my dad was abusive, he was alcoholic, she didn't have a choice to go anywhere. Because that's, that was what she was told, like, we've married you off, you haven't got a choice. So some of the work I do is for her, and for me, you know, for the younger me who didn't have a choice. So yeah, I wish my family would kind of recognise it, I think it'd be nice. But I'm not kind of waiting, I don't know if that'll ever happen, so I've got to do what I got to do, I think.
Hannah Witton
I wonder, like, on the other side of things, as a South Asian woman, as a feminist, as somebody who is, like, very outspoken, and like talking about all of these different topics, is there like a another kind of pressure that is being, like, a South Asian feminist? And like being successful and kind of like - do you see a pressure there as well from like, a different kind of South Asian community?
Sangeeta Pillai
Not really?
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's good.
Sangeeta Pillai
I mean, not really, I don't think so. Perhaps the only pressure is to kind of be visible on social media and things like that, that I find difficult, you know, like, the last -
Hannah Witton
To kind of like, represent your community, or?
Sangeeta Pillai
To constantly create, present, create content to sort of - and maybe that's I don't know, that's self-created pressure, or it exists in the world, I don't know. So like, the last month and a half, I've done nothing on social media because I had COVID. And then I had Long Covid, so you know, I was recovering. But I do feel like this voice at the back of my head said, "Oh, you haven't done any social media for like, a month and a half." So I guess there is that pressure. And I do feel a responsibility, I think, to kind of keep doing the work that I'm doing, keep creating podcasts that people really emotionally connect with and that are meaningful to people's lives, and that it helps their lives. You know, like I have been doing, I think the last couple of seasons. And that's probably the most gratifying part of what I do. I get kind of messages on social media, people find me on email, and they write to me in to say, you know, "We heard you on in the car, we heard you on this podcast, oh my god, you know, you said something that really helped me, or I experienced something similar. And, you know, what you said gave me strength, or gave me hope that it was okay to be like this, to say these things." So, to me, like, that's the - that's why I do what I do. And I want to keep doing that. And I want to keep giving people that, I think. That voice. That kind of place to kind of go to and just say "Yeah, it's okay. You know, I can do this. I can say this, because here, there's this woman on this podcast, and her guests doing all these amazing things, but that's okay."
Hannah Witton
Okay, well, let's continue trying to help some people because we have some questions from Instagram.
Sangeeta Pillai
Amazing.
Hannah Witton
From some of our listeners. Somebody asked: How can my South Asian friend navigate telling her parents she's LGBT?
Sangeeta Pillai
I would say slowly and with compassion. So, absolutely, maybe to have like a couple of conversations when you say, you know, there are different ways in the world to be South Asian, maybe show them there are loads of amazing LGBTQ activists out there who do incredible work, maybe talk about them. Then tell them that this will make you happy and this is who you are. And if they react in a way that isn't fully supportive, understand that that's their baggage. That's the world they've grown up in. So try not to let it upset you too much and sort of remember that ultimately, they love you and they will want you to be happy. Just give them that space, I think, to kind of come to it and come to you.
Hannah Witton
It might take a while.
Sangeeta Pillai
it might take a while, so don't expect it to be - so you can say something today and they're like, "Oh my god, amazing." Which happens too! I know a lot of South Asian families where the kids have come out as LGBTQ and the parents are really, really supportive. But if yours isn't one of those, just give them space and understand that that's their conditioning. It's not their fault, it doesn't mean that they don't love you, they do. And give them time to come to it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I really like that piece of advice about kind of showing that like queer South Asian exists. Just being like, look at these people, like, and look how happy they are.
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly. Exactly. Because also, you know, in South Asian culture, it's very much about - your mum will say, "Oh, look at so and so's son. They're doing so well." You know, there's this kind of like dig. Or somebody's had babies or whatever, it is very much an outward looking way as well with people. Our parents, particularly.
Hannah Witton
Interesting. So play on that.
Sangeeta Pillai
Play on that! Use it. Say, you know "Oh, you aunty so and so's son? Well, guess what? He came out and he's really, really happy." Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah! And his parents were so supportive!
Sangeeta Pillai
So supportive, exactly! Their Instagrams are, like, all smiling and you know, having dinner together.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. Yeah. I love that. Um, somebody asked: could you talk about the relationship between feminism, sex and religion? They said, I'm from Japan and curious about it. Were you raised religious?
Sangeeta Pillai
Yes, and no. So I'm Hindu. And kind of, that's the faith I was born into. And it was very much part of my background, but I chose not to kind of be actively in it. Like, I didn't go to the temple. I didn't do all of these things. Because the version of my faith that I was presented, I didn't really like. Like, they'd say, "Don't go to the temple on your period." And be like, "Why? Didn't God just made me? If you're saying God made all of us and that's part of me as well." So, but I think having grown up and understood my religion a little bit more, and gone back to like, books, like the Kama Sutra and like a lot of other things, I've come to understand that actually it's quite a holistic, large religion, and it allows all sorts of people and things and opinions. There is no one way to be Hindu. Even though we are -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and aren't there just like loads of genderfluid gods?
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly! Oh my god, yes, there are lots of non-binary gods in Hinduism. And there's a lot of sex that our gods were having. Really nice if you read all the Mahabharata and Rama and like, so and so's sleeping with so and so then there's a child and you know, they're very, very open.
Hannah Witton
A very complicated family tree.
Sangeeta Pillai
Yeah, very. Happy, you know, like somebody is taking - one of the gods will become a woman, and then they sleep with a man, you know, they're really attracted to this man. Yes, so there's a lot of that. So I've come to understand that the version of Hinduism that I was taught isn't actually accurate even. If I go back a long way, actually, it's a far more inclusive, open religion. So there is a place within religion for feminism, like Kali, one of the goddesses in Hindu's religion, she's fierce. She'll chop your head off if she doesn't like what you say. So, you know. So there are some very strong feminist goddesses in the religion that I come from. There's Durga, there's Shakti - Shakti is like - so Shakti and Shiva are the two concepts. So Shiva is the male energy and Shakti is the female energy. And it's a union of that that creates the world, you know. And so it's very much strong feminist ideals and gods and ideologies that the religion comes from. So I think, in answer to that question, I think if you dig deep enough, whatever your faith is, whatever your religion is, if you have one, you will find that feminism has always existed. Because, you know, we created the world, the world comes from our womb. Without that it wouldn't exist. So in all faiths and religions, feminism has a place. It absolutely does.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And oftentimes, it's like a few people at the top of a religion that are imposing those more rigid interpretations.
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly. And you got to ask yourself, what's in it for them? What's in it for them that women kept quiet, you know, that's half the population that's quietly doing as they're told, and they can get on with whatever they want to do. So I think that's a good question to ask.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So one thing that we haven't touched on yet, but somebody did ask a question about was in terms of access to period products and information about periods and is that something that is still taboo in South Asian culture?
Sangeeta Pillai
Yes, sadly. I wish it were different. But yes. Because there's such a emphasis on the body and sex - the female body and sex being dirty. We're always taught, you know, chi chi is one of the first words we learn as children.
Hannah Witton
What's that?
Sangeeta Pillai
So chi chi is dirty in Hindi. So if there's a kid running around naked, the parent will say. "Chi chi, put some clothes on." You know?
Hannah Witton
Right.
Sangeeta Pillai
So the associations of nakedness and our bodies, particularly female bodies being dirty, and this kind of idea of impurity. That's why you're not supposed to go to the temple because you're impure on your periods. So because of that a lot of parents don't necessarily talk to their kids about periods and things like that. So when there's such a sense of shame and kind of silence around it, it's very difficult for girls that age to kind of discover information, or then access period products. And in some kind of circles as well, virginity is a big deal. And there's a there's an understanding that a tampon is going to sort of somehow pierce your hymen, which it really doesn't but you know, this kind of misinformation and not - basically because we don't talk about sex, we don't talk about periods, we don't talk about our bodies at all. It is a no go zone in any - in most South Asian households. So then how do you educate on kind of what happens when somebody gets their period?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And especially because you just hear so many stories of people who, like, didn't know what a period was before they got their period for the first time and like seeing blood coming out of you that you were not expecting? It'd be a really like traumatising experience.
Sangeeta Pillai
Exactly. exactly. So yeah. Sadly, it still is an issue.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Somebody asked: what's the biggest stereotype about feminists from South Asian countries?
Sangeeta Pillai
Well, the strongest is that they are kind of these man-hating angry individuals who go out burning things. And you know, and that's the kind of prevalent I think, idea around feminism. Because even in India, like - I go to India a lot, a lot of the last season I recorded in India - some of the kind of really fierce women that I met with say, "I'm not a feminist."
Hannah Witton
Oh, interesting.
Sangeeta Pillai
And I'm like, "Why are you not a feminist?" "Because I'm not one of them. I still like to enjoy my femininity." And this idea that somehow you don't need - you cannot be feminine and be a feminist is a really weird one to me. Because that's the kind of version of feminism, I think, that's kind of projected. Angry and hating men, but that's not - I like men. You know, I'm not angry all the time. You know, I like wearing pink maybe or whatever, you know. So yeah, unfortunately.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think that's quite a like, prevalent stereotype. And that's really interesting that you're seeing that when you're in India as well, because I feel like in the West now, it's definitely like, more mainstream in terms of kind of, like, actually, you kind of almost have to be a feminist like, as an individual or as like a company as well, and a brand in order to, you know, be taken seriously and for people to want to engage with you. Which has its own drawbacks as well. But I definitely, I really do remember, like, as a teenager, when I was like, first discovering feminism, it being this quite binary thing of like, you know, if you were a feminist, then yeah, you were like, a man-hating lesbian who was a tomboy, and yeah, like that separation from femininity, for sure. And it just not being very popular. It being quite a dirty word.
Sangeeta Pillai
Absolutely. And I think I'm hoping that India will go on the journey that we've been on here, because I think it's only in the last I'd say - I mean, I've only lived here for 16 years. But in the time that I lived here, I've seen it change, like, everybody is a feminist now, and proudly feminists, it's a thing we say with pride. And I'm hoping that countries like India will also kind of start to do that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I heard recently that apparently, it only takes like 25% of a population or a community in order to like start tipping. Apparently, I don't know where this comes from. But apparently that amount of people is what it takes because then suddenly people are like, "Oh, that's what people are doing now. That's the normal thing. Okay. I'll go along with that." So you just need a quarter of Indians, Indian women to be like -
Sangeeta Pillai
I'm just gonna keep plugging it in. "I'm feminist, look at it, It's amazing. You can still wear pink and be a feminist and love men and all the rest of it."
Hannah Witton
Oh, well, Sangeeta, thank you so much for joining me and talking like all about your work and South Asian culture and sex and everything. Where can people find you and Soul Sutras and the Masala Podcast? Please just plug all your stuff away.
Sangeeta Pillai
Amazing. So please go to soulsutras.co.uk which is my website. Send me an email. There's a link in there if there's anything you want to talk about. There's links to Masala Podcast, all three seasons on there or just typing this on a podcast on Spotify, on Apple, on Google or wherever you get your podcasts. All the information about the workshops will be on the website as well soon. Follow me on social media. I'm on Instagram as @soulsutras. I'm on Twitter @soul_sutras. So I'm everywhere, come find me.
Hannah Witton
Yay. Amazing. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all very much for listening. Bye.