Living with herpes and sti stigma with ella dawson | transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: discussion of toxic relationships and unhealthy power dynamics
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. In this week's episode, I'm joined by Ella Dawson. Ella is a sex and culture critic who digs into topics we usually avoid in polite company from our dehumanising culture of casual sex to how shame keeps us silent about our mental health and sexual health. Her short fiction has been published in six erotica collections, and she is currently working on her first romance novel. Ella first gained a platform due to her opening up and candid sharing about being herpes positive, and has been using her audience to educate and fight the stigma around herpes ever since.
I was really keen to speak to Ella because we haven't covered STIs on the podcast enough, and never really spoken about herpes at all. Herpes is one of the most stigmatised STIs and Ella is really doing such amazing work to break the stigma so when she was enthusiastically suggested by one of my patrons to be a podcast guest, I knew I had to check her out and see what all the fuss was about. Our chat did not disappoint. I learned so much talking to Ella from just how common herpes is to how the stigma is actually relatively recent - from the 70s and 80s - and Time Magazine's infamous herpes cover. We also talk about how sex-positive sex education can try and stay away from fear-mongering and talk about STIs in a way that doesn't exacerbate STI stigma, rather than the message that I certainly received: that they were the end of the world. We also spoke about how talking to sexual partners about your herpes and STI status can create greater intimacy and vulnerability, leading to deeper connections and actually better sex. I really loved having this chat with Ella because when it comes to something like herpes, the more we talk about it, the more we reduce the fear and ignorance about it, which is so important considering something else Ella and I speak about, which is that people with a herpes diagnosis are often highly vulnerable to being in toxic relationships with unhealthy power dynamics due to the shame and the fear. Conversations that end the stigma and change how we think about herpes are absolutely crucial and I can't wait for you to listen to our chats.
As usual you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify - yes, Spotify have ratings now, whoop whop! It is really appreciated. And without further ado, here is my chat with the brilliant Ella Dawson.
Hannah Witton
Ella, welcome to Doing It. I'm so excited to get into all of the nitty gritty with you about everything.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, no, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
Hannah Witton
Awesome, how are you doing?
Ella Dawson
I'm good. I'm good. It's a very windy day here in Connecticut. So I apologise if you hear any windows rattling but -
Hannah Witton
It's all part of the fun.
Ella Dawson
Exactly. Hopefully, we'll have no barking dogs. We'll just have normal - normal house noises.
Hannah Witton
Fingers crossed. Yeah, I wanted to get you on to chat about herpes, about STI stigma, and then also you're a sex and culture critic so we're going to talk about culture and the media and all of that good stuff because I love those kinds of conversations. But first, so we're all kind of like on the same page: what is herpes? So we all know what we're talking about here.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, so herpes is a virus. It is technically a sexually transmitted infection, but you can also get herpes in ways that we don't think of as sexual. And herpes has two major strains that humans usually get. Its herpes simplex virus one or herpes simplex virus two, but it's also part of a larger family of viruses that includes things like chicken pox, and something called herpes gladiatorum, which usually impacts wrestlers. So it's a, yeah, it's a very weird skin condition that has been impacting humans for many, many centuries. But we tend to think of it in this very narrow way as this like scary sexually transmitted infection, but it's a lot more complicated.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Even you just saying then "skin condition", immediately like reframed it in my brain as something else like - is that something that you like to refer to as as well?
Ella Dawson
Yeah, I think that it helps put it into context for people. The symptoms that you get when you have herpes are mostly physical skin symptoms, you can get little sores on different places in your body. And for me when I have herpes outbreaks, it reminds me a lot of having a really annoying case of acne because it's like an uncomfortable physical blister. But it's not deadly. It's not extremely excruciating. Like it's a skin condition. And when we talk about herpes in sex education, or just joke about it, it's like this sexual boogeyman that's this, like, curse where you become a leper and your life is over. And, practically, that's not what it is. It's a skin condition. It lives in your body. It's just another virus. And it's yeah, it's a skin condition. It's a lot less scary when you think of it that way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it really is. I'd love for you to just kind of like, take us on a bit of a journey from like, from when you got diagnosed with herpes to like, the massive TEDx talk that you did. And then also like that was quite a few years ago as well, but like, to now and like what all of that has been like.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, so I was diagnosed with herpes a few days before my 21st birthday, which was a fun present, yes, I had been seeing someone and I think what happened was, we both thought of ourselves as being very sexually responsible, not in the sense that we were not having a lot of fun with sexual partners, but we got tested frequently. And unfortunately, what we didn't really understand is that herpes is not on a standard STI tests, like when you go in and pee in a cup, you're not being tested for herpes. And most of us don't really know our herpes status, because you either need a culture taken directly from a herpes outbreak, or a specific type of blood test. And that's not necessarily even recommended from doctors if you're not showing symptoms. Because the psychological impact of a diagnosis is thought to be so intense that if you are asymptomatic, you might even be better off not knowing that you have herpes, according to like, yeah, according to the Centre for Disease Control in the US at least
Hannah Witton
Wow. That's interesting, because I guess like that, their reasoning behind that is maybe like harm reduction. So like telling someone they have herpes is going to do more harm than them just having herpes and giving it to other people without knowing like...?
Ella Dawson
I know, it's really wild to think about.
Hannah Witton
Which if anything, just proves the point that like having herpes isn't that big of a deal? In practice?
Ella Dawson
Exactly. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Wow.
Ella Dawson
And it creates, like, there are a lot of folks in the herpes community who rightfully are quite frustrated by that recommendation, because it leads to all of this ignorance. And it's, that's a whole other thing we could talk about. But the other piece of it too, is that herpes blood tests can be expensive, they can be a little bit unreliable. So like, there's a logic to it. But it leads to people like me being 20, 21 years old, and thinking that I know my status when I actually don't, or my partner thinking he knew his status when he didn't. So we were both very unpleasantly surprised when I had a herpes outbreak. And I considered myself someone who was very informed about sex as well, like I had volunteered for Planned Parenthood, I had done a lot of protesting in my high school about the lack of real sex education. So I felt very much like, "What is this? Like, who am I? Are my values wrong? Is this some kind of karmic punishment?" Like, I definitely had an identity crisis of "How could this happen to me out of everyone?" And very quickly, I realised, "Oh, no, this is actually great that this happened to me because I have all of these tools and frameworks from being in this sex positive space to understand that, oh, this is a new type of stigma I didn't know about before. And this is so common, and how weird is it that I've never talked about it with anyone." And thankfully, I eventually, after a few months of like wallowing and research, realised this might actually be a really wonderful opportunity to start a conversation that I have never had before.
Hannah Witton
So how common is it? Because when I first heard this, like, mind blown,
Ella Dawson
Yeah, so a few years ago, the World Health Organisation made a bunch of headlines when they said that two out of three people under the age of 50 in the world have HSV one, which is the strain of herpes that I have. And so that's two out of three people. That's the vast majority of people. And some of those folks are asymptomatic.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's the strain that mostly causes like mouth cold sores, but obviously, like through oral sex could be passed to the genitals.
Ella Dawson
Right, exactly. So it's not only oral herpes, it's also genital herpes, but we associate it with oral herpes. The difference between the strains is like where it lives in your nervous system, like where on the spine. Fun fact. But I have genital HSV one. So that's the strain that I have. And yeah, two out of three people, but a lot of them are asymptomatic. A lot of them have cold sores and don't realise that that's herpes. Like, there's a lot of misinformation.
Hannah Witton
Because cold sores are really normalised even if they are like, a bit annoying.
Ella Dawson
Yes, exactly. And yeah, so that's, that's that statistic. And then the statistic for HSV two varies, but it's still one out of five people, one out of six people, like it's far more common than we would really expect it to be considering the silence around herpes. So yeah, those statistics are really fun to drop. They're really - they shake up the way you think about it, for sure.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder like, how many people after listening to this will be like, maybe I should go and get a herpes test. See if I can actually find me one of those.
Ella Dawson
Exactly. Or it's a it's a nice level setting of like, how well do I know my status? Like, I might know that I'm negative for gonorrhoea, chlamydia, syphilis, but there's this other category of STIs that I don't know about and it can become part of your conversation about STIs, like, this is what I know, this is what I don't, what about you?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think I got tested for herpes. Because I'm pregnant. I think.
Ella Dawson
That would make sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because I think if you're positive, then they might be like, "Have you thought about having an elective caesarean as well?" Because obviously, if you were having an outbreak during birth, then that could be passed on to the kid. But I don't know if any time before I had it at STI screenings. So if I was ever tested for it before, I have no idea.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, exactly. I think during pregnancy is a time when doctors will often do that check. And like, if you are herpes positive and you get pregnant, like you can have a normal childbirth, you're not at risk of like, ruining your infant's life. Like there's a lot of fear and misinformation on that too. But it is worth thinking about. Like a lot of herpes outbreaks can be triggered by stress. And that's certainly the case for me. And pregnancy is a super stressful time. So yeah, I know some folks who have gone through pregnancy and had outbreaks and been like, well, this is deeply annoying.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Wow. Honestly, it's just like, wild to me like how normal it is. Because I definitely had a lot of sex negative, like, sex education, and views around STIs. Especially herpes. Like it's, it's the one that like, no one wants.
Ella Dawson
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Like, that's kind of like how it's talked about a lot of the time. And yeah, and I guess like then from becoming somebody who was speaking openly about that, what was the response like to becoming, like, an internet famous person with herpes?
Ella Dawson
Yeah, so a little bit of context just of how that happened too. I basically, when I was in college, and then when I graduated, I had already been in like the sex positivity space, I worked for a sexuality publishing house. And eventually I went on to work for Ted. Just as a coincidence, I was on their, like social media team.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, nice media training you get when you work there. But yeah, I just kept seeing this gap in the conversation. And I knew a lot about HIV AIDS and the activist movement behind that. But there were so few people who were publicly talking about having herpes. And there were a handful. I was lucky enough to meet Adrial Dale, who was like one of the forefathers of the space. And that was - it made such an impact on me to meet someone who said, "I also have herpes, and I'm fine and also very handsome." Like, for me it was like this aha moment of "Oh my god, this is such a relief to meet another person." So eventually, I decided screw it. I'm going to start writing about this on my blog. I kind of like baby stepped into it on my blog. And then a friend of a friend worked for Women's Health magazine and asked if I wanted to write about herpes for their STI Awareness Month. And I wrote a short piece for them called Why I Love Telling People I Have Herpes. And it went super gangbusters viral, like, probably in the millions of views. It was nuts. And I was 23, 24. Like I was a baby. I think it was the first time I was paid to write something for a magazine or at least one of the first times.
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Hannah Witton
And suddenly everyone now knows that you have herpes.
Ella Dawson
It was wild. Yeah. It was wild to have everyone know I had herpes. And it was wild to be that level of internet famous in that moment. And I mean, it dies off but yeah, it was a lot to process. But the response was really interesting. Like I expected to get backlash and hostility. And what I really found was 1000s of people around the world super relieved that someone was talking about this in a way that didn't make them feel like trash. And so I got hundreds of emails and Facebook messages and Twitter comments and just like a deluge of attention of people being like, thank you so much, this is such a relief. And that was really humbling. It was very overwhelming. But yeah, it was it was interesting, you don't really get the backlash you expect when you talk about something like this. The only backlash that I eventually got was once I started to talk about STI stigma as like a social force. That's when people started to be really obnoxious, of like, "Well, this should be stigmatised because we shouldn't encourage people to get STIs and like, why are you trying to normalise this? You're disgusting." Like, that's when I started to get the stuff that was really toxic. And that in itself just underlined why we need to have this conversation too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, what - did you respond to any of them? Or were you just kind of reading through it all?
Ella Dawson
I didn't respond directly to anybody because I know that like someone who's leaving a drive by Facebook comment is not really doing it in good conscience. They don't want to learn. But I definitely wrote some like obnoxious blog posts about the people who think that I'm disgusting, like, as you do when you're 24, you have no impulse control. But it was very informative. It taught me a lot about the knee jerk reaction people have to this topic and where it even comes from. And a lot of it I think, is just fear. People want to think that they're not the type of person who will get a virus like this. And surprise, there's no type of person who gets herpes.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, but on that there's definitely like a stereotype of like the type of person who would get herpes or any kind of STI as well. But then there's like this other, like this catch 22 stigma then of like, the "good" victim of herpes, as well. And like, did you feel like because you were - you didn't actually say if it was an exclusive sexual relationship, but I'm assuming it was? I don't know.
Ella Dawson
It was messy. I think I thought it was and I learned it was not.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay. But did you find that people were like, more forgiving of you getting herpes? Because it's like, oh, well, she thought she was exclusive. So it's fine.
Ella Dawson
Yes. And I'm also - it's one of those moments when I become very aware of privilege too because I am like a white, fairly attractive, skinny, like upper middle class, white woman. And like at the time, I was identifying as straight. So I think I was very much like a safe figure to normalise herpes, like, I think that it's not a coincidence that I went viral because I was just very respectable. And so it was interesting of like, "Oh, this cute girl next door got herpes, like it can happen to anyone." And it's it was so funny to me even at the time because I had also been a sex writer, I was a published erotica author, like, I modelled topless in college. Like, there were all - and like, I had kind of grown up with this idea that because I was so sexual, I was kind of like a bad girl. So it was really weird to suddenly have people treating me like, "Oh, she's so wholesome." It's like, "Wait, what?" Yeah, but we definitely have this sense of like, there are two kinds of archetypes of people who get herpes, especially for women and white women in particular, there's like, the sexually irresponsible person who deserves it and it's a consequence. It's like a punishment. Or like the pure wife or girlfriend who gets cheated on by a terrible person, and then gets herpes and it's not her fault and her life has been ruined. And in reality, like it's all a mix, like there's no good person who doesn't deserve it -
Hannah Witton
It's Mary Magdalene and like, all over again, it's just like, you can't - the Madonna/whore complex. It all comes back down to that.
Ella Dawson
100%. And there are people who get it from abusive perpetrators of harm and were irresponsible. Like there are people who, quote unquote, "did everything right." But it's a biological lottery. Like it's not something that is a consequence. It's not a punishment. It's just some people get herpes because it's a virus looking for a host and it's very -
Hannah Witton
Especially with those stops you mentioned. Like, it really is a biological lottery at this point.
Ella Dawson
Yes, exactly. Yes. And one you're rigged to lose, so.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's true. Especially with HS one.
Ella Dawson
Yes, exactly.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to kind of like shift gears a little because you mentioned the kind of like respectability thing and like navigating that and I saw you were talking about that on your Instagram recently as well like, as somebody who writes a lot about sex and feeling like maybe you have to desexualize yourself in order to be taken seriously. I'd love to hear more about that. Because one: hard relate to that kind of notion. But then also, I kind of flip flop between like, feeling like, I need to desexualize myself in order to be like, "No, we're having serious discussions here. Like sex is a topic that deserves to be interrogated like anything else." But then I also have this like, flipside fear that I'm like, not sexy enough to be talking about sex online? Like I'm literally like, sat here in a fluffy like Disney jumper with my hair in pigtails. And I'm like, "Yeah, this is, this is how I present." But yeah, I wondered like if you get - like how you feel about like, the thing that you were talking about but then also, do you get the not sexy enough pressure as well?
Ella Dawson
Yeah, I so when I first went viral, I really tried to be buttoned up. I like bought blazers, I was very conscious of "I want people to hear what I have to say. And I want people to understand that this can happen to anyone." And kind of leaned into that respectability in a way that I now am like, "Oh, that was really gross, and kind of silly." But because people are so simplistic in their thinking, especially when it's a tabloid covering you like, I can understand - it's almost like a way we shield ourselves from being judged or being written off as silly or trampy. Like, it becomes this kind of armour of like, "No, really, I am intelligent, and you should take me seriously." Like, it's, it's kind of a defence mechanism, I think, that a lot of folks in this sex positive space can fall into. And for me, like when I posted that on Instagram - for those of you who haven't seen it, I posted like some thirst trap selfies in lingerie. And I also to be completely transparent, I went through a breakup over the summer. And my partner was just - he wasn't a conservative person. But he's not a sex positive, or publicly sex positive person, he's privately - I won't get into who he is. He's a nice man. But we were travelling in a lot of spaces that were more conservative, just in terms of the social scene that we were in, in New York. And I was getting a lot of judgement from people about my sex writing. People, either saying, "Oh, she's just a writer" and like, not wanting to know, or people avoiding it in polite company, like, it was just not a space where I felt comfortable. And it was interesting when we broke up to realise like, "Oh, I've been really putting huge pieces of who I am away, because I felt the shame from this strata of society."
And now I also - I moved back in with my mom after the breakup in very conservative Connecticut. And it's very funny to like, be conscious of the fact that I probably seem like a very normal digital consultant who's doing social media, and people don't even - it's kind of funny to be like, "They don't know that I'm internet famous for having herpes." Like, I'm just very aware of how I'm presenting at all times lately. But yeah, I absolutely relate to the like, "No, I am - take me seriously pay attention to who I am." And then I'll often feel like "Oh, but am I being too preppy? Like am I am I letting the sex positive community down by not being sluttier?" And like, there are times when I really miss that, like, I just I went on a shopping spree online last night for like those corset tops that are really trendy because I was like, "I want to take more thirst traps." So I don't know. I think it's - I don't have like a brilliant takeaway, but I think it's something that a lot of women are aware of when we're in this space of just like, how sexual am I presenting? Will people listen to me? Will people write me off? Am I letting down the cause as well if I'm too buttoned up? Like I think it's a constant negotiation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it really is. And like I often - I definitely feel like some envy sometimes when I see people who are able to be more nude than I am maybe online sometimes. And like sometimes I'll be in my lingerie, but I definitely like stop myself more than I would like, and I think it's because of comments from men on the internet.
Ella Dawson
That's the biggest thing for me, too.
Hannah Witton
I don't want to give them what they want. Like that's actually, like, what it comes down to.
Ella Dawson
No, I mean, I think that's a huge point is like it's - how safe do you feel being sexually expressive online? And for me, like I've noticed that I've been posting some more like thirstier content on Instagram, and I love hearing from women and queer folks and like some cis men who I already know and like and trust, and I'm fine with them being like flame emoji in the comments. But it's so easy to feel overexposed and unsafe in those environments when you do post those photos because men on the internet will ruin everything. Like it's - no offence men who are listening who are one of the good guys, but like, it's - I think there's a lot to unpack about how safe are you in posting this way? How much - how financially secure are you in order to be doing that, like? There's a cost to it.
Hannah Witton
Also like, are you mentally feeling good enough that day to read some of those comments?
Ella Dawson
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I'm trying to read more work from sex workers, just because I think that there's so much I can learn about how they negotiate those boundaries and their experience being a human being in this super stigmatised field. And that's been helping me kind of parse my feelings about this too. But yeah, what a mess. Such a complicated world.
Hannah Witton
Alright, I do want to bring it back to herpes a little bit, as well, and actually kind of get a bit meta in terms of like, are you tired of being the herpes person?
Ella Dawson
Oh my god, what a good question that no one ever asked me. It's exhaust - yes, I am. I talk about this a lot. I have another friend in the space who's kind of like an advocate buddy of mine and we text about it a lot of just like herpes is - it's very common, for most people it's a pretty insignificant medical experience in terms of how it actually impacts your body. For some folks, they can have more severe cases, they really - there are a lot of folks who are advocating for a vaccine and for a cure and better treatments and like, everybody's bodies and experiences of herpes are very different. But for me, at least, herpes is not impactful. In the past nine years, I've had three outbreaks. So I've had active symptoms for maybe six weeks, out of nine years. Like it's just to me, I'm like, this is not, it's not a big deal. And I'm very comfortable talking about it at this point, mostly because I accidentally became famous for it. And I have these conversations all the time. But I - you run out of things to say after a while, because it's just, yeah, it's a virus. It's really common. It's really silly that it's so stigmatised. So it's more that - I'm not tired of people knowing that I have herpes, like I don't have - I'm totally fine with people knowing that but I just have run out of original thoughts about it. So I try to signal boost other advocates who might have different experiences, particularly folks who are not white, folks who are not cis, folks who are not straight. But yeah, I've been more conscious of branching out in my writing just because I want to talk about other things, too.
Hannah Witton
Okay, well, that that kind of like makes me want to splinter off into two ways. One: off the top of your head, who are these other herpes activist recommendations? And if you can't off the top of your head, we will leave them in the show notes. I'll hunt you down after.
Ella Dawson
Yeah! Well, one person who has become a friend is - there's an account @safe.slut on Instagram, Tricia, she is fantastic. She is just - she's one of those people who is very much like fuck respectability. Excuse my swearing.
Hannah Witton
No, it's fine.
Ella Dawson
She is - like her content is just so funny, and joyful and sexual and unapologetic. And it's - to me, I'm like, I wish that I had found this account when I was in college because it's so - she's very in your face about like, you can still have wonderful kinky sex when you have herpes. Like this is not the end of your sex life specifically. So I really recommend folks check her out on Instagram. But yeah, and Courtney Brame is also lovely. He has a podcast called Something Positive for Positive People. And he's a Black man so he has a very different experience in the world than I do. And so I've learned a lot from him in the way that he talks about herpes. But herpes Instagram is lit. Like if you have herpes and you're looking for community or if you're just curious, like hashtag herpes awareness on Instagram will bring you to so many different people sharing their experiences and it is so wonderful as an advocate to be like "Look at them all. They've arrived! Like yeah! We did it."
Hannah Witton
I love that and I really hope that like maybe people who in their day to day life aren't in like super sex positive spaces in terms of like their upbringing and their family and friends or environment and stuff, I really hope people like that can find those spaces especially. Yeah. How's herpes changed your sex life? Has it made it better?
Ella Dawson
I think so. I think it has. I mean, the thing about having an STI is, I think at least you have this ethical responsibility to disclose your status. And it becomes part of informed consent is talking about, "Hey, this is what I have. This is how we manage it. What do you think of that?" And I've learned so many practical skills when it comes to talking about sex with my partners, because of my diagnosis. And it creates this opportunity with your partner, whether it's a casual partner or a more monogamous partner, like no matter what type of sexual partner it is, it creates this space to be vulnerable and to have a check in of like, "Is there anything you want to know about me? Is there anything that you want me to know about you or your body? Or what you're looking for?" Like, when you say to someone, "Hey, I have herpes, how do you feel about that?" You then can say, "What's your status?" And that person may say, "Oh, this is my last test. This is what I know. But you should know that I'm really triggered when people touch me in this certain way." Like, I find that it's been it's created this conversation that I wasn't having before. And I was having pretty garbage sex before. Because I just didn't know how to talk about it. And now I'm, I mean, I'm not an expert at talking about it, but I'm a lot better than I was at 20. And my sex life is greatly improved.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it gives you an excuse to like, open those floodgates of just like - I think, once you get the ball rolling sometimes - and oftentimes, it's like, someone just needs permission to feel like they can communicate what they are into, or what their boundaries are and stuff. I really love the opener of like, "Hey, I have herpes. How do you feel about that?" Because of all of our like, either absent sex education or poor sex education, and then like, the media as well, we are all going to feel things about herpes.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, whether that's - it's funny, I think most people assume that that feeling people have when you disclose is disgust. It's usually just confusion. It's usually just, "Oh." Because I think especially like, especially because of the stereotypes we have around STIs, people who haven't already Googled me are usually like, "Wait, you have herpes?" Because I don't fit their assumptions. And oftentimes, they haven't, especially if it's someone in their 20s - I'm experiencing this less now that I'm like, on the cusp of 30 and I'm dating older folks, but young people often haven't, to their knowledge, encountered herpes before. So they're like, "I don't know how to have this conversation. Like I've never - this is - what?" Like, like a short circuit. And very often, in my experience, people bounce back with like, "Oh, okay, what's, what's that like? What does that mean?" And it becomes a conversation as opposed to like, "Ew, never mind." like I've never had someone do that.
Hannah Witton
Like, "How does that impact us? And what we're planning on doing together?" Like,
Ella Dawson
Like, "What is the practical implications of this? Like, do you always have symptoms? Like, can we still -" and then I get to say, Like, "Oh, well, we can use certain barrier methods and like, there are medications I can take to reduce the risk. If that's something you're interested in." Like, then it becomes a practical conversation. And then they're very reassured, and I can be like, "So what about you? What's your deal?"
Hannah Witton
Tell me about all of your skin conditions.
Ella Dawson
Yes, I had someone who - this is one of my favourite stories. I dated someone who was very sweet about me having herpes. And the first time that we hooked up, he had a bad case of ringworm. And like that was the concern, was like, it wasn't worried about - there was no worry about, like, how do we protect against herpes? It was just like, he was very self conscious that he had to keep a shirt on because he had ringworm. And I was like, "That's fine! Like, that's not weird to me at all." But it put it into perspective for me of like, "This is so not a big deal." Like yeah, it was really, it was really comforting and funny and sweet.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And, and also, like, there's so many other things that can come up as well with sex and, like having the tools to be able to navigate all of those, whether it's an STI, whether it's ringworm, whether it's like past trauma and boundaries, or just like your knowledge of like, "How do we do this?" I love that. So, shifting gears again, you're currently writing a romance novel?
Ella Dawson
Yes. Yes.
Hannah Witton
How's that going?
Ella Dawson
Oh, man. It's very difficult to write a romance novel in the middle of a pandemic, at least for me, because there's so much hope and optimism and like fantasy and escapism in romance that I've been reading a lot of romance, but it's been significantly harder to work on it myself.
Hannah Witton
I was gonna say I actually got into reading romance fiction during the pandemic, just like really funny saucy romcoms of books. And I'm like, I'm so here for that escapism. It's great.
Ella Dawson
Absolutely. There's been this like huge resurgence of romance as genre because of the pandemic. And like so many people reading it for the first time, and it just makes me so happy. So hopefully my book will eventually be available to read. I'm like stuck in my third plot revision, and it's just like, so aggravating. But I do love it. It's It's such a fun - it's such a fun space to play in and like, yeah, it's just, it's great. One day.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. As a writer, how do you like navigate the line between like, entertainment and education when it comes to like sex scenes and stuff? Do you think that there's a responsibility there, or are you just allowed to do whatever you want because it's fiction?
Ella Dawson
Yeah, I think it's a really fantastic question, particularly because the way that I first wrote about having herpes in public was because I was and I still am an erotica author. And at the time in this was 2014, late 2014. There was a bit of a hubbub in the erotica community about should you have this ethical responsibility to be responsible in the way you depict safe sex in erotica? And I basically was like, "Hi. I don't think you're obligated as an author to do any particular thing. But like, as an author myself, I always address whether or not my characters are having safe sex just because I have an STI and like, I can't really write a sex scene without knowing what's going on in that way." So like, I think that I don't like it when authors have STI stigma in their books. And you run into it a lot, particularly in like historical romances where - I love historical romance. I read a lot of like, regency era -
Hannah Witton
Is there lots of venereal disease?
Ella Dawson
Well, there's often jokes and references of like, "My love interest is a rake, but like, he doesn't have the pox." Like it's kind of a way to say like, "Okay, my hero gets around a lot. But like he's not diseased, like, he's not irredeemable." And I'm always just like, why do you have to go there? But, but in contemporary romances, I'll get very distracted if characters aren't using condoms, just because I'm like, this book is taking place in 2022. They're having wonderful sex, like, did we not stop to unwrap a wrapper? But that's just me as a reader. But I think it's a good question.
Hannah Witton
I guess it like takes you out a bit as well. For me, I
Ella Dawson
For me I get very distracted, yeah. Not everyone does. But even folks who don't have STIs, I'm in some readers' groups, and people will be like, "Yeah, it's kind of weird that there was no, like, there was no addressing that." But um, I know, as a writer, myself, I'm having a lot of fun figuring out how to do it in a way that doesn't feel heavy handed or preachy. And like, I have a scene in my romance novel - hopefully, it'll be in the final edition of the book. We'll see what happens when it goes through edits -
Hannah Witton
But if it's not then this is the juicy stuff. Exactly.
Ella Dawson
Exactly. But I have a moment where my characters who - it's like a second chance romance between exes, and they have a moment where they're like, "So is there anything new I should know?" And one guy's like, "Yeah, nothing, nothing new to report." And it's kind of left vague of like, did he have an STI that he she already knows about? And then she says, "Yeah, no, my last test was at x time, no positives." And then I have another character who has like a Valtrex container in her makeup bag, which is like a herpes medication. Like, I'm having fun figuring out how to normalise it without having it be like a big plot point. One day I want to write like a herpes novel, herpes romance novel though, where like, the heroine gets herpes.
Hannah Witton
From the perspective of the virus!
Ella Dawson
Herpes falls in love!
Hannah Witton
With everybody!
Ella Dawson
They just have so much love to give. They can't contain it. Oh, man.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're welcome. I'm not a writer. So you could take that idea any way you want.
Ella Dawson
I'm sure that book exists is the sad thing. Like there's some weird stuff on Amazon Kindle. But uh, but yeah.
Hannah Witton
We have some questions from from our listeners on Instagram that I wanna pose to you.
Ella Dawson
Fun!
Hannah Witton
This one, I really like. It's from a educator who says: what are ways we can talk about the risk of herpes while also not contributing to the stigma?
Ella Dawson
That's a fantastic question. I think that a lot of it is in the framing of like, how to talk about consent, how to exchange information, how to talk about birth control prevention methods and like it's kind of a talking about it from like a practical perspective as opposed to talking a lot about... Oh, this is such a good question. I'm trying to articulate my thought. So I think there is a way to talk about it in terms of like practicalities. There's also the framing of like, are we talking about risk or are we talking about pleasure? And like, how do we make sure everyone involved has a respectful, pleasurable experience, as opposed to talking about these are all the risks you take when you have sex? Like for me, the sex education I had was incredibly risk based. And like "Here are all the things that could happen to you that are terrible. You could get pregnant, you could get an STI, you could die, like, people could think you're a slut." Which is super different from what most sex educators in the progressive space are doing now, which is, "Here's all the things you need to know to be a healthy sexual adult." So I think just being very cognizant as you talk about STIs: what are the assumptions that are being made?
And another thing too is - and this is a beef that I have with a lot of sex educators - there are a lot of people who follow you, or who you might be teaching to, who already have STIs. And like, you need to remember that that's, in fact, the vast majority probably have or have had an STI, and checking in with yourself of like, you don't only need to talk about prevention, you can talk about "What does this actually look like to have an STI?" And normalise for your students, like, "A lot of folks do, this is a way to talk about it," as opposed to, "Here's how you make sure that you get tested and then you tell people that you're negative and then go have fun." Like what happens when you now have a positive test result.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because that's not often talked about, you kind of get up to the point of "Yeah, prevention and testing" and then the conversation just like stops there. But yeah, I was thinking about this question as well, because like, you're right, so much of like, really bad sex ed only focuses on the risk. And then, like you said, we want to focus on like the good stuff and pleasure and healthy sexual relationships and stuff. But I think it's important to like have that balance, like you have to - in order - if you're going to talk about risk, you have to talk about like, like the realities of it, as well. And when I think about risk, I also think about like, emotional risk. Risk feels like maybe the wrong word, because like vulnerability might be a better word in some cases, as well. And actually, like, for us all to make more informed choices about all parts of our sex lives and our bodies and our relationships, it's like, actually weighing up all of those things. And like, we don't think about that for other parts of life. Like, you know, if you want to - literally, the first thing that came to my head was skydiving. Like, there's risks there but people are like, you learn about the risks, you've learn about how to mitigate them, you're as safe as possible. N, maybe this is actually - the more I go down here. I'm like, this is maybe not the best analogy.
Ella Dawson
No, but I think it's a good one. I think maybe, maybe instead of talking about potential risks, it's like what are the possibilities of any type of interaction?
Hannah Witton
Yes! I love that framing.
Ella Dawson
It's possible that you'll get herpes, it's possible that you'll develop feelings that aren't requited, like it's possible. It's also possible you have a great time. Like, maybe that's one way to think about it.
Hannah Witton
Possibilities and opportunities.
Ella Dawson
Yeah, yeah, it's -
Hannah Witton
That's better.
Ella Dawson
That's a fun one. It's funny like I - my mind when I think about that doesn't go to skydiving, it goes to learning how to ride a motorcycle, a motorbike. Because I I tried to learn how to ride a motorcycle. Definitely one of the dumbest things I've ever tried to do. I fell - like I wound up not being injured, but it was very embarrassing for my ego. And I think a lot of that of like, what were the possibilities? Like, I definitely bruised my ass, but I felt really cool. And I learned to do this as well.
Hannah Witton
Which you can do in sex as well!
Ella Dawson
Yes. Yeah, that's kind of - that's always my go to is like, "I don't regret doing that. And I did hurt myself. But it was very fun. And I learned a valuable lesson."
Hannah Witton
There you go. Love that. Somebody asked: do you find it hard now years after diagnosis with the lack of representation in the media? So we can get into how herpes is talked about in media.
Ella Dawson
Yes. And this is still something like when I hear herpes joke in a television show or in a movie or when I'm reading particularly a romance novel and I run into these moments of STI stigma, it still pisses me off. Like sometimes I can kind of roll my eyes but like, the worst is when I'm hanging out and watching a movie with my parents or with like a new lover and something like that comes up and it's just so awkward to be like, "Ha, doesn't that suck?" And then decide, like, do we want to keep watching this? Like, I still - I've been positive for nine years now. And I'm still just like -every time it happens - "Really?"
Hannah Witton
Have you ever come across any good representation in the media?
Ella Dawson
Oh yeah! It's still like few and far between. But there are some, there are some great moments. I'm trying to think. There's this one stand up comedian, who I feel like every person with herpes has a huge crush on, named Drew Michael, who has like a great - he's herpes positive and he has this fantastic bit from his stand up about like, how, by the time you're 30, you should either be married or have herpes. And he was like, "At least my herpes will last forever." Like, he's just so biting and funny. And it's so much of his set is just like, "Thank you. Yes, this is what it's like to have herpes." So I think that we're slowly seeing more and more people talking about it. And like he talks about this in his stand up and I think it's useful to think about like, we've learned a lot more about body positivity and body shaming and accepting different types of bodies. And we're learning more about disability and disability studies and how we talk about bodies and what they can do, and STIs intersect with a lot of those things like you can use those frameworks to try to understand STI stigma and the way that we talk about it. And I'm hoping that we're learning some of that vocabulary. And the other thing is, we have this wonderful black swan event that is COVID, which is a virus that operates in much the same way as herpes. And I think that's been helpful too og teaching people like, "These conversations you're having about COVID, you can use all of those skills to talk about STIs."
Hannah Witton
I know, yeah. I keep thinking about that, like the way that we're like, "Oh, hey, before we hang out, shall we both test?" And that is like becoming at least, at least in my circles, a very normal, like, conversation to be having. And I'm like, I really hope that this translates to our sexual health as well.
Ella Dawson
I really hope so. i That's my like, prayer that that's the silver lining out of all this is like not everyone will learn those skills but if some folks can be more comfortable having these conversations, and if some folks realise like, oh, viruses are really strange and impersonal, and sometimes it's just you got in an elevator and someone had just coughed and now you're sick. Like, maybe that's also true of these other types of viruses, like, that would make me very happy. But representation - like there's still so much STI stigma in pop culture. But I think that we're we're getting better slowly.
Hannah Witton
Slowly. Somebody asked: a guy blamed me for giving him chlamydia once. We broke up. How do you deal with assholes? Have you had experiences with assholes like that?
Ella Dawson
I have definitely had experience with assholes. I mean, the guy who I was dating when I tested positive - jury will always be out on like, who gave herpes to who?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, how are you - how do you know, a lot of the time?
Ella Dawson
it's very hard to prove, especially when people think that they've been tested for things they haven't been. And now and now that I'm a little older and wiser, I'm also like, "I don't care who gave herpes to who. It was an accident." Like he and I were being very cautious. Like, we were using condoms. We were trying to protect each other. Like, I don't really care if he did give it to me, but he behaved like a jerk when I tested positive because I tested positive first. And I immediately was like, "This must be me. Like, I'm, I'm the sex writer, like I've had all this casual sex, like, oh, I must have had this all along. And I'm so sorry. I might, I must have exposed you to this." Like, I immediately was like, "I am responsible." And that became like a very ugly power dynamic in our relationship of, "You gave me herpes, and I'm such a good person for still being with you."
Hannah Witton
Oof. Do you think people like stay in unhealthy relationships because of a herpes diagnosis.
Ella Dawson
Yes. I turn into like a little gremlin when people ask me this, because I think it's so important to talk about. Herpes and abusive relationships correlate really strongly. I don't know if there's data, like specific research into herpes, but you see this with HIV patients. And anecdotally, I hear about this all the time. I think there's - it goes in two directions. When you have an STI, particularly when you're freshly diagnosed, because you're dealing with all these insecurities and feelings of shame and isolation, you just aren't in a space to say, "I deserve to be treated extremely well." And so if someone comes along who is already kind of a perpetrator of harm, or who's just incredibly immature and doesn't understand STIs and has internalised all this garbage, you're in a vulnerable position to be treated like shit by this person and to not recognise that you deserve better, and to even justify it with, "I'm so lucky they want to be with me at all. And maybe this is just what I deserve now."
And the other direction is if someone is an abusive person, if they're a perpetrator of different types of sexual violence, like if they're already kind of scummy, they're not going to care about the sexual health of their partners. So that's where you see someone who might be having unprotected sex or just not getting tested, not communicating, not disclosing, because they were already a jerk. Not because they have an STI, like, they have an STI and they're also a jerk. And that's where you see kind of multiple women getting herpes from the same shitty guy. Like, there's a bit of a pattern of folks like, "Sure has a lot of herpes accusations around him." Like I ran into a sexual harassment issue at work with someone who gave herpes to a bunch of people because he wasn't disclosing like - there's a lot of - it's a really messed up situation that happens all the time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And like the STI and the herpes isn't like to blame here. It's like - it's the shitty behaviour.
Ella Dawson
Yes, yes. And like, having an STI doesn't make you a bad person. But if you're a bad person and you have an STI, you can do a lot of damage to people's lives. Yeah. And I think that like, I've been - a lot of my work in the last few years has been kind of parsing that nuanced, terrible conversation of like, what are the stereotypes that put people in dangerous situations? And then how do dangerous people get away with terrible stuff? To be eloquent about it. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Okay, to kind of like lighten things up a bit before we finish. What is like one thing that you want everybody listening to know about herpes? And then also like to not completely pigeonhole you as the herpes internet person, what is like one thing about like sex and culture that you're like, really fascinated by at the moment that you're just seeing kind of play out that you also want to share with listeners?
Ella Dawson
Yeah, trying to think of a fun thing about herpes.
Hannah Witton
Or just something that you want people to know about it?
Ella Dawson
Yeah. hmm. I - It's so funny, I'm reading a few different books about STIs right now that are really joyful and lovely. One book that's coming out this year is called Been There, Done That by Rachel Feltman, who is like a science writer. And she writes about sex. And she has a great chapter on STIs in there, and like that book is just a wild ride. I'm writing a blurb for it. It's like, she talks about how bison are off - they exhibit a lot of like, homosexual sexual tendencies and like just like wild stuff about animals and humans throughout history, behaving in strange ways, but like, she's she's written a lot of fun stuff about herpes too. But I try to - I'm at a point now where I really enjoy finding - I enjoy being curious about herpes, because it's such a strange virus. It's been around for so long, and it no longer freaks me out. I'm more just like, "This is so strange. Like how does this virus behave? Where does this come from? Why is herpes stigma kind of recent?" Like before, the 60s, 70s, and 80s herpes was extremely normalised. And it's only in the last 50 years or so that herpes has become so - such like a sexual Boogeyman.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, I didn't know that. Interesting
Ella Dawson
Oh, yeah, I should have - I should have taken it out for this. But I have like a giant framed Time magazine cover from the 80s because Time Magazine wrote this feature story about herpes as like this scarlet letter. And it's really funny if you look up the cover, it's like so dated and 80s, with like shoulder pads and like this giant scarlet H. And I'll show you, I'm making stickers these days of the H from the Time magazine cover, because it's just so goofy.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness. I'm gonna have to ask you to take photos of those and we can share them on our social media sp that people can check out, that would be awesome.
Ella Dawson
They're one of my Patreon perks. I made them for new Patrons. But like it is, that's something that I find really fun and weird is - when it's not making me very angry - just like, where - how did this become a stigmatised thing? Like what are the weird pop culture forces? What was the weird journalism? What do the pharmaceutical companies have to do with this? Because I'm not like a conspiracy theorist when it comes to pharmaceuticals, but like they did develop a drug to treat herpes but people weren't really looking for herpes treatment because it was so normal. So like, how do you let patients know that they should be taking this drug? Like there's a lot of fun rabbit holes you can go down. So that's that's one thing. And then about sex in general I am - I'm starting to learn more about ethical non-monogamy and polyamory. And I think a lot of people coming out of the pandemic are just like, exhausted and looking to connect with other people and looking to explore different types of relationship configurations. And that's, I'm kind of in that phase of like, "What does this look like? I kind of just want to flirt with people. Like I don't really want to be in a relationship." And like, I don't know, I'm having fun breaking down a lot of the assumptions I had around what type of relationship I even really want. And do I want to get married and have kids? I don't know. Like, the world is full of possibilities.
Hannah Witton
I remember like, yeah, in like, peak lockdown for us here in the UK. I just remember even even though like I am currently in a monogamous relationship, just being like, "I miss flirting with strangers. Like, oh my god, like I need - that is the kind of just fleeting and non-consequential and just like very fun and low stakes human interaction that I need right now."
Ella Dawson
Yeah, like I miss having office crushes. Like, I miss being like, "Oh my god, that guy is so - or that that woman is so charming in this meeting, and I always look forward to having meetings with her." Or like, "Will the person who's really hot on my subway stop be on the subway this morning?" Like the like the silly anticipation and excitement of that. And I've become very straightforward on social of sliding into people's DMs on Twitter and being like, "Hey, I have an internet crush on you. Wanna flirt?" It's been really fun.
Hannah Witton
"Wanna flirt?" I love that! What an invite. I love that. Well, Ella, thank you so much for joining me, this was so fun. And please let us know where people can find you and all of your work online. And also like go ahead and plug your Patreon as well. Thank you.
Ella Dawson
Thank you! Yeah, you can find me at elladawson.com. That's where you'll find my herpes TEDx talk and my blog and all kinds of stuff. I'm also on Twitter most of the time and Instagram more than I'd like to be @brosandprose because I write prose about bros, because you have to get herpes somewhere. And I'm also patreon.com/brosandprose. I write about sexual health and relationships and mental health and pop culture and all kinds of stuff every month. I have herpes stickers. You can also read my micro memoir that I self published during the pandemic called Life Ruiner about herpes and abusive relationships. So that's on Patreon too. But yeah, I'm all over the internet. I live with my mom and I never leave the house so you can find me anywhere.
Hannah Witton
On the internet. Love that. Oh, well. Thank you so much, Ella. And thank you all very much for listening. Bye!
Ella Dawson
Bye bye!