WTF is up with marriage laws? (AKA how to annul a marriage) | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hello and welcome to Doing It, the sex curious show where we ask questions and nerd out and explore the weird and wonderful world of sexuality and relationships. I'm your host Hannah Witton, resident sex nerd and a sex ed enthusiast. We are currently working on some very exciting changes for Season Five of Doing It. But we didn't want to leave you hanging. So here's what's going to happen: we asked you to email us questions for things you need advice with, and myself and my assistant Megan, who you may remember from a previous episode, are going to attempt to answer them. Quick disclaimer though: we are not doctors or therapists. The advice we give is purely what we imagine we would say to a friend if they came to us with these questions. It's that kind of vibe of agony aunting. Either we're down at the pub having a chat, or at a sleepover, a dinner party, or having a really long phone call and getting deep. Each week in the lead up to season five launching, we'll be answering one question with new episodes every Wednesday as usual. If you want to share your thoughts, insights, and advice on the dilemmas, then please do join in the conversation over on social media. We are @doingitpodcast on Instagram and Twitter. Links to everything we talked about in the shownotes on our website as usual and I hope you enjoy this series of agony aunt style minisodes.
Alright, Megan, what's the question?
Megan Moore
Okay,so we have a question from anonymous, saying: I was wondering if you guys would discuss the marriage law in relation to STI s (if anyone has an STI, the marriage is void) and the implications for people who are STI positive for like herpes and HIV?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. This is like a big Yikes. Erm... so.
Megan Moore
Behind the scenes for you, listeners, I was like, Hannah, is this a thing? And Hannah was like, yes, you sweet summer child? Yes, it is.
Hannah Witton
It is a thing, which I only know because maybe I was looking up how to annul a marriage for reasons. No. No, I think something else came up where someone was like, you know, you can like annul marriage on this basis. And I was like, what? So what I thought could be a fun ride for all of us because this is - it is honestly wild. It's basically like laws not catching up with other laws and people and social justice and blah, blah, blah, blah. Because marriage is old, and it's slow to change. You know, it was only just, I'm pretty sure this year, 2021, when you could put your mother's name on a marriage certificate.
Megan Moore
Yeah, it was this year. I remember. I remember people talking about it. When I got married, you could not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, when I got married, which was last year, you could not. Even though the law had changed, but it hadn't come into effect yet.
Megan Moore
Ah.
Hannah Witton
So yeah, it was both of our dads.
Megan Moore
Did they ask you what your dads did? Like, what they do?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like their name and their like occupation. How archaic!
Megan Moore
It was so weird. It was like, what bearing does this have on me in any way? I'm like, I'm not like chattel.
Hannah Witton
So this is the gov.uk page on how to annul a marriage. Feel free to follow along, dear listener. Obviously, this is just the laws in the UK. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Oh, actually, never mind. When you can annul marriage. Okay, I think this stuff is different in in different countries within, because this says like England or Wales, England and Wales. Why's it always England and Wales, like Northern Ireland or Scotland are like we're doing our own thing, guys.
Megan Moore
We - no, it's fine. You you do you.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so annoying. A marriage is different to getting a divorce because basically what annuling a marriage means is that you are saying that the marriage was - was void, the marriage actually never legally existed. Whereas if you are getting a divorce, you are breaking up an existing marriage. That is -
Megan Moore
So an annulment is sort of like, oh, actually take back?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Megan Moore
That didn't happen.
Hannah Witton
And I think there's a time - is there a time frame? I don't know.
Megan Moore
It's saying - it says that you can apply for an ailment in the first year of your marriage or anytime after, but the longer you leave it, the more you have to explain the delay.
Hannah Witton
Got it.
Megan Moore
Like I guess if you've been married for, like five years, they're like how did this not exist for five years?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So you have to either show that the marriage was never legally valid in the first place. Or if it was legally valid, it has to meet a reason that makes it voidable. So not legally valid marriages are: if you are closely related to the person; if you were under 16; or if one of you was already married or in a civil partnership. That - that's all pretty basic stuff.
Megan Moore
Yeah. like that all feels like yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
Those are things that they check beforehand.
Megan Moore
Yeah, they are. You get - you get checked with those things. I guess. Did they get - did they get covered in that like before marriage interview? Which is also a thing I did not know you had to do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the before marriage interviews that are separate. It's so weird.
Megan Moore
It's so weird. It felt like I was gonna - it felt very much like, you're gonna fail this test.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and honestly, I'm surprised, because I can't remember if we had to give each other's full names. I'm assuming Dan - Dan got it all correct
Megan Moore
You did.
Hannah Witton
But like, literally the other day, Dan got my middle name wrong. He was just like Hannah Louise. I was like, no, it's Lisa. How dare you, like....
Megan Moore
We - the bits, we had problems with were - you have to give the like the person's job title. And we were like, I know what they do. But like job title?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I don't know.
Megan Moore
Right?
Hannah Witton
I could give a good educated guess. But no. Okay. So do you want to find out the reasons in the UK that make a marriage voidable. Okay.
Megan Moore
Okay.
Hannah Witton
Strap in, everyone.
Megan Moore
Okay.
Hannah Witton
So it was not consummated, which means you have not had sexual intercourse with the person you married since the wedding. (Does not apply for same sex couples.)
Megan Moore
Why?
Hannah Witton
Because it's all about penis in vagina sex.
Megan Moore
But -
Hannah Witton
That is the thing that they're obsessed with.
Megan Moore
So is it basically like resale value? Is that what they're saying?
Hannah Witton
I think it's, I think this is just like a really archaic leftover law from like, yeah, like, the whole, like, you can't be a virgin or like, if you're still a virgin, then it means that you could really technically like remarry or whatever.
Megan Moore
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And then also the, like, potential for like, reproducing? I don't know, because it says sexual intercourse, which I'm assuming in the law like refers to penis in vagina intercourse.
Megan Moore
If doesn't apply to same sex couples...
Hannah Witton
Because they believe that same sex couples, couples, like can't have penis in vagina sex.
Megan Moore
Ah, funsies.
Hannah Witton
Because like, but then obviously, like, it just - it just all like gets thrown out the window as soon as you start thinking about like, well actually, like trans people.
Megan Moore
Yeah!
Hannah Witton
Like a trans woman who's a lesbian, like, they might like have penis in vagina sex, but they would be classified as a same sex couple. So where does that fall under?
Hannah Witton
No, this has blown Boris Johnson's mind, like, we can't get into that. He's, he's fallen over.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. But it's honestly wild, I think, Well, here's the question like, do we change it so that what applies to het couples applies to same sex couples? Or would we change it so that what applies - so that everything applies for same sex couples, ie you can't get an annulment if the marriage was not consummated?
Megan Moore
Because why is this there? Is it saying that like, if you've had sex - it's say - it's there because it's saying like, if you have had - if the woman has had sex with the guy like back - we're using the like, archaic -
Hannah Witton
But what about couples who just don't enjoy penetrative sex? Like straight couples? Who just don't want to have PIV?
Megan Moore
Well, then I guess you can get an annulment because the woman is not owned. Like - is that - is that what it's saying?
Hannah Witton
She's not been penetrated, so it's not a valid marriage,
Megan Moore
She's not been penetrated.
Hannah Witton
It's not a valid marriage. I honestly, it's wild.
Megan Moore
it just feels it feels very, it feels very like oh, resale value. It does feel like oh, it's okay, that one didn't - like the man returned to this car. You can take it back. It's like new.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, right. It's like yeah, anyway, wild. Okay, so this next one, and I don't have any qualms with which is: you did not properly consent to the marriage, for example, you were forced into it.
Megan Moore
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Glad that's there.
Megan Moore
That's - yeah, perfect. Also, I feel like that should be say, in the like, legally binding stuff above.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It should be. Yeah, that should be.
Megan Moore
Although I'm glad it's in there and you can void it in case like all of the times when you're checking when people are saying like, are you consenting to this, the person that is making you consent is there and you have to say yes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Megan Moore
I'm glad that that's there. Okay. It can be in both places. Good. Our government is fine.
Hannah Witton
So that's the only good one.
Hannah Witton
The rest of them: field day. So the next one is: the other person had a sexually transmitted disease - STD - when you got married. Also, I find it interesting that the government is still using STD whereas in the like, sex ed field we've transitioned to using STI.
Megan Moore
Ohhh.
Megan Moore
Yes.
Hannah Witton
But yeah, so yeah. Basically, the reason why we're doing this - the person who asked that question, you are correct. If you have an STI when you get married, the other person - your partner could technically annul your marriage on that basis. It doesn't clarify, or it doesn't specify that it has to be like, unknown.
Megan Moore
Yeah. I was assuming - when - when you said it existed in the first place, I was like, okay, so maybe it's like, it's a, yeah, maybe it's like you didn't know. And then you found out and you were like, this is a like, breach of trust. But otherwise, it just feels like, if you - like, if everyone knows, then you get married snd then you're like, actually, I don't want this marriage. You could be like, no, actually, they're dirty. And you're like, that's gross. That's a really disgusting thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also what you could - what it also leaves open is, if somebody like - say if - because divorce, like can be messy and can be expensive but it also can protect you if - because - you maybe you don't work and you're not working because your spouse is working and is like, don't worry, I can pay for us both.
Megan Moore
If you get divorced, you get...
Hannah Witton
But then if you get - yeah, if you get divorced, then you're financially protected. But if they go, you've got HIV. So actually, I can legally annul this marriage, you are entitled to nothing.
Megan Moore
That is so revolting. That's so revolting. How is this a thing?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Cuz it doesn't specify that it's like, without the person's consent or -
Megan Moore
Knowledge. Yes.
Hannah Witton
- without the person being aware that they have an STI. And, like, people who have STIs get married, and should be able to get married without like, fear of annulment.
Megan Moore
Right? It feels it feels very like this is leftover from again, when marriage is property. Like it feels like we're saying, if - it feels like a condition marker, right? Like if you - again, like if you're buying a car, and like there's wear on a tire and you're like, actually, I didn't want this because you said it was brand new and this is - this is here. Like, it's gross. That's not how people work. And it's like, very degrading.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And get ready for the next one.
Megan Moore
Nooo.
Hannah Witton
Once again, once again. So your marriage is voidable, so you can annul marriage, if your spouse was pregnant by someone else when you got married?
Megan Moore
Hannah, why?
Hannah Witton
Yep. Once again, with the just - it just being about property.
Megan Moore
That is also again, it doesn't say if you knew or not.
Hannah Witton
Right? Because also this has been happening for centuries. Like, I've watched period dramas. Someone gets pregnant by somebody else, and then another person marries them to save their reputation.
Megan Moore
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Like that's a classic storyline.
Megan Moore
That's a whole thing. There's a whole thing about that in Bridgerton.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, literally, it happens in Bridgerton. But yeah, no, that is a reason you can annul a marriage for that reason. Which also if you then annul a marriage, and that would then legally make that child a bastard. Which obviously in today's society doesn't like matter so much, but in some - in some cultures, or like it still does. And obviously historically, it definitely did.
Megan Moore
It does feel very like slow your roll, Jon Snow.
Hannah Witton
Right? Yeah, just like sign a piece of paper and like you've gone from being a bastard to legitimate or legitimate to a bastard.
Megan Moore
Right? Arrrg. That is my nuanced sex positive take on this.
Hannah Witton
Arrrrrg.
Megan Moore
Yes.
Hannah Witton
I love it. Yeah, that's kind of like what it warrants to be honest. And, and, and it doesn't get any better.
Megan Moore
Oh. No.
Hannah Witton
The final one on this list is that you can annul marriage if one spouse is in the process of transitioning to a different gender. This one is underlined, actually.
Megan Moore
Why is this one underlined?
Hannah Witton
And I'm like - this is was linked to something. What is this linked to - oh it's linked to applying for the GRC.
Megan Moore
Okay.
Hannah Witton
The Gender Recognition Certificate. But yeah, so if you're in the process of transitioning, and I'm assuming what this means is in the process of the legal transition.
Megan Moore
Right, not in just -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because that link -
Megan Moore
- goes to the Gender Recognition Certificate.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, It takes you to that part of the Gov website. So I think it's - Yeah. So basically, and this is also like, marriage is still not equal in this country because of trans people who haven't legally transitioned, can't get married and have their gender on the marriage certificate.
Megan Moore
No!
Hannah Witton
So basically, like, if they've not legally transitioned, then they would have to be their sex assigned at birth -
Megan Moore
- on the marriage certificate.
Hannah Witton
On the marriage certificate.
Megan Moore
I feel very stupid for not having thought of that. But also, oh my god.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Moore
But -
Hannah Witton
So we don't have marriage equality.
Megan Moore
Again, I'm just going to make gross noises into the microphone, but like those sum up my feelings.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Mmhmm.
Megan Moore
So if a spouse was not in the legal, transitioning period, like they had, they knew their identity, or it was something they figured out during the marriage, but it's just the legality of it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What if they don't want - what if they don't feel like they need the gender recognition certificate.
Megan Moore
You don't have to!
Hannah Witton
Hey, I know my gender.
Megan Moore
I know my gender, it's fine.
Hannah Witton
And I think so. Basically, if you are trans, and you want to kind of - if you want, if you're trans and you want to get married and you also want to feel that your actual gender is represented in that marriage so that they are calling you the correct term, husband, wife, whatever it is, and your gender is correct on the marriage certificate and you also don't want the potential for an annulment -
Megan Moore
Oh, my god.
Hannah Witton
- then you have to wait until you've been able to legally transition, which in this country, a lot of trans people say is a really like, lengthy and demeaning process.
Megan Moore
Yeah, I remember from the episode you did with Jamie and Shaaba. They were talking about that, the two of them and I'm like - so that's just another legal step to jump through before you can be recognised as the person that you are, before you can get married.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also think about people who may be trans people who maybe didn't realise they were trans or didn't come out until later in life, and they're already married,
Megan Moore
That - that also feels like a really gross way for people to be like, this is why the marriage was - we can annul it, even though it's been x y z years.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because it feels like well, you weren't - it's like, it's like - the awful like transphobic like trope of like, oh, they're just tricking. people. Yeah. So like, oh, I was tricked so I can annul this market,
Megan Moore
it's almost like - it feels some of the things that you've just read out feel very much like, like, like the moustache twirling villain at the end of a book pops out and is like, I'm doing this because of this reason. And like you're reading the book, and you're like, this seems exaggerated. But no.
Hannah Witton
I've just read at the bottom, it says the rules on ending a civil partnership are slightly different.
Megan Moore
Ooh.
Hannah Witton
What are they? Maybe they're a bit better? Who knows. I think the equivalent of annuling a civil partnership is called dissolving.
Megan Moore
Dissolving. Right?
Hannah Witton
Is that - or is that all the same. I don't know. It says - or a legal separation?
Megan Moore
Scanning this, it looks like there isn't like a so much of a distinction between annuling and divorcing, because if you're ending slash dissolving your civil partnership, which are both terms that they use, it says that you may need - that you that you do need to divide your money and property if you're dissolving a civil partnership, so that's more like divorce, right? When there's like, rights.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So basically, if you want to protect yourself from all of those horrible like annulment things, get yourself a civil partnership. I think is the -
Hannah Witton
Is that because civil partnership -
Hannah Witton
This is my, "I am not a lawyer" advice.
Megan Moore
No, neither of us have any. As you can tell by our scanning of the government website and being like, what is this?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Megan Moore
it's not the other different rules for the civil partnership, do you think, because it happened so that, as far as I understand, - they went, here's a civil partnership, so you can - same sex people, same sex couples, can, like legally commit to each other but without being called marriage? Because that's sacred.
Hannah Witton
Well, well, yeah. Yeah.
Megan Moore
I'm doing air quotes around a lot of these things, people at home.
Hannah Witton
Scare quotes.
Megan Moore
Scare quotes.
Hannah Witton
Well, maybe because yeah, cuz civil partnerships were introduced as a consolation prize for LGBTQ+ people. And so a lot of those things that we've read out in the annulments section, essentially apply for like - apply to, cis straight couples.
Megan Moore
From like, like we were saying back in, like, marriage property situations. Yeah,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. And so they didn't feel the need to write any of those things into the civil partnership law, maybe, one, because they were writing it in the 21st century. And so it doesn't have all of this leftover baggage, but also, two, maybe because they didn't think that like, queer people would - I don't know. Like, I'm just like, there's a,
Megan Moore
There's a faint - there's a faint eau de homophobia, just like...
Hannah Witton
Maybe a little, but also like, I'm, I'm happy that those things don't exist as well.
Megan Moore
Oh, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
So I'm like okay. But yeah, and obviously now, heterosexual couples can get civil partnerships as well. I wonder what the laws are around trans people getting civil partnerships and if it's the same where you have to have legally transitioned in order to do that.
Megan Moore
Because it does not say on this page. Does not mention any of that.
Hannah Witton
No, it doesn't say anything. But it's a it's a much shorter page.
Hannah Witton
It's a much shorter page. I guess because -
Hannah Witton
But there we go.That was that was our adventure.
Hannah Witton
That was our adventure.
Hannah Witton
Into how to annul marriage. What a good time.
Megan Moore
What a great, great archaic, I feel like I am being sold at market time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Thank you to anonymous for prompting this exploration.
Megan Moore
Yes, and I'm sorry if this applies to any situation that you're in, anonymous.
Hannah Witton
I'm really sorry if any of that applies to you. It might be a good idea to talk to your partner about it and just be like, this sucks. And just get angry about it. And all that stuff.
Megan Moore
Cathartic rage together.
Hannah Witton
Exactly.
Megan Moore
Okay.
Hannah Witton
Well done. gov.uk. She says, sarcastically
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening. If you like the podcast, please don't forget to leave a rating and a review. It really helps us out and make sure to follow us on social media at doing it podcast to join in the conversation and keep up to date on everything happening with the podcast. Until next time.