Fetishes and Roleplay with Florence and Reed (Come Curious) | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: discussions about consensual non-consent fantasy and roleplay throughout. Also emetophobia warning.
Hannah Witton
Hi, welcome back to Doing It and happy new year if you're listening to this when the podcast is first released. It's January 2022. Am I recording this in advance in the deep past of December 2021 and so have nothing to contribute about how my Christmas and New Year was? Perhaps. But I hope that whatever you got up to during the last couple of weeks was nice. And if it wasn't, I'm sending you lots of virtual love and consensual hugs. I am very excited for our first episode back with two guests I've been meaning to get on the podcast since I started the damn thing: Florence and Reed, the hosts of the Fucks Given podcast and co-founders of Come Curious, a sex, body, and mental health honesty platform. This episode is all about fetishes and roleplay. Reed shares about her tickle fetish and her journey with acknowledging and accepting it and being more open about it and reducing the shame that she's felt for years because she has a tickle fetish. And Florence also talks about her fascination with lactation and how it is such a turn on for her. And we chat about whether for her, is it a kink or is it a fetish? We also get into talking about different roleplays and fantasies and the difference between fantasy and what you like in reality. And: trigger warning for discussions about consensual non-consent fantasy and roleplay, or what is sometimes called ravishment fantasy. We talk about what that is and, if it's something you're interested in, things to think about to do it safely and in a way that everybody is into.
Hannah Witton
I am so grateful to Florence and Reed for always being so open about sex. They really don't hold anything back in this conversation and it was so much fun to chat with them. Definitely make sure to check out the Come Curious Instagram, and their podcast Fucks Given because they get into so many different sex and dating topics. It really is just like a sexy wonderland of content. It's great.
Hannah Witton
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, then please leave us a rating and review over on iTunes. It is really appreciated and really helps the show out. And now here is my wild and wonderful conversation with Florence and Reed.
Hannah Witton
Florence and Reed. Welcome to Doing It. I'm so excited. This has been a long time coming.
Reed Amber
So excited to be here!
Florence Bark
Thanks for having us!
Reed Amber
Thank you so much. We've been massive fans of your podcast and you for a long, old fuckin time. We've known each other for years.
Hannah Witton
Years! Yeah.
Florence Bark
We have, haven't we.
Hannah Witton
I love the - I don't even know how we met. But I think we were just like watching each other's YouTube channels. And then did we - maybe it was like ErotiCon might have been like one of the first times we met in person. Yeah,
Reed Amber
Yeah, something like that. Like some kind of sex related event. For sure.
Florence Bark
We hung out at VidCon a little bit, but I'm sure we knew you before that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then I came on your podcast, Fucks Given and now I'm returning the favour. We love it. I love it. So for people who may not know you, like what is Come Curious, and also how did you two meet? I want the backstory.
Reed Amber
Oh, the backstory is juicy.
Hannah Witton
Oh really?
Reed Amber
Yes, but first. So Florence and I created Come Curious about seven years ago, which was a YouTube channel, but now has migrated to a podcast called Fucks Given, and we do the social media thing and we're all about normalising sex, we educate about sex. It's kind of like not necessarily the sex education you got at school but more like the sex education you and your mates would talk about. We do like the filthy shit!
Florence Bark
It all started from our conversations, our dirty conversations in the living room, which made us feel like so much more confident about ourselves, our sex lives, and we were just like, "Well, why don't we share this with other people? Make other people feel the same way."
Reed Amber
And we both have Film and TV degrees. And of course with sex goes hand in hand with body honesty and mental health and so we just kind of cover a wide basis. Anything that's to do with sex, we'll talk about it.
Florence Bark
Yes. We talk about everything.
Hannah Witton
I love that
Florence Bark
No limits.
Reed Amber
Literally no limits.
Hannah Witton
I was actually gonna ask about that, I was like, do you have boundaries in terms of like what you share? But I also want to know this juicy story about how you guys met!
Reed Amber
Yeah so we met on a porn set a long old time ago where we were both in the porn industry, we both wanted to be porn directors and get ourselves into - I mean Florence wanted erotic film, and I was like yeah, I want dirty commercial porn. Now I see that I was mistaken. And I want to work in beautiful ethical porn.
Hannah Witton
But you can also still have like dirty ethical porn, you know?
Reed Amber
Yes. Oh, I mean, I want like fucked up kinky, ethical porn. Like, that's what I want. That would be nice.
Florence Bark
Yeah.
Reed Amber
And yeah, it's a bit of an odd story. Like, it was a bit weird the company we worked for, but -
Florence Bark
It was a very odd little dirty London-based porn company, which wasn't really even a porn company. We were just very naive and we just wanted to get into the industry and get experience. And I think, you know, these people were paying us and we were like, "Oh, this must be what it's like, right?"
Reed Amber
They were paying us good money as well, like good money. But like we can't, you know, we're so grateful that it gave Florence and I the opportunity to meet and then Florence moved in, in my spare bedroom in London. And then we kind of just started filming ourselves talking about sex, because that's all we fucking did. We just like sat on the sofa with tea in our dressing gowns talking about sex all day, every day, I swear.
Florence Bark
All day every day.
Hannah Witton
And you were like, the people need to hear this.
Florence Bark
They do.
Reed Amber
They really do.
Florence Bark
Oh my god, the amount - I was looking back at some old YouTube videos recently and just the amount that we have changed since we first started putting up videos is insane, like we would sit there really awkwardly in front of the camera and just be like, "Oh, yeah, this is how I feel about anal sex. I'm not really sure about it, to be honest." And now we're like, "Fucking love anal! Give it to me!"
Reed Amber
Kinks and fetishes was one of our like - one of the first we spoke about was like the new 50 Shades of Grey film, you know, it's like so - do you do the same matter where you look back at like your old old videos and you're just like, "What have I done?"
Hannah Witton
I cannot. I can not. It's painful to watch.
Reed Amber
It's painful.
Florence Bark
It is really painful.
Reed Amber
It's - everyone else doesn't see what we see. We see how much we've grown. You know, if you're looking at old photos and videos of yourself and you're cringing that means you've grown as a person, which is such a positive.
Hannah Witton
If you were actually watching it, and you're like, "Oh, who's that amazing person?" You'd be like - you'd actually be a bit concerned about where you're at now.
Florence Bark
True! That is so true.
Reed Amber
Like, "Ooh, old me was so cool." That's what we do when we hit like a certain age when we're a little bit older and we're like "Wow, I used to be so beautiful. I used to be so cool." Like that's bad thinking, negative thinking. We need like "I look fucking sick now."
Hannah Witton
Just always about right now, like right now is great.
Florence Bark
Present. Keep in the present.
Hannah Witton
So tell me about this no limits thing because I was really curious about like, how do you decide what to share and what not to share? And like do you have any like hard and fast rules when it comes to boundaries? Or are you just kind of like a see how you feel situation?
Florence Bark
I think it is more see how you feel situation.
Reed Amber
We do have limits. We have limits in terms of like what we can sort of share in our personal life, you know, especially when it revolves other people. So maybe the people that were you know dating or seeing - if they're not cool with us talking about a situation or them on the podcast, of course we don't. And that can - that can change as and when, sometimes it's yes and sometimes it's a no, but for the most part Florence and I don't really have limits. It's almost like - the - doing stuff for the podcast is a bit of a challenge, like a bit of a therapy appointment. If you feel uncomfortable about saying it to the public, then you know you've got to push yourself to do it because once you do you feel so much lighter and freer. You're like "Oh, I've conquered that fear. I've done that."
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Honestly that is how I kind of felt coming on Fucks Given as well.
Reed Amber
Oh amazing, because - like not amazing you were scared but like that's good that you came on and conquered that shit.
Hannah Witton
I knew that it was gonna be like pushing boundaries for me because obviously like with the whole like best fuck, worse fuck, like memorable fuck, kind of conversation. I was like "Ooh, have I ever like gotten this specific with my sex life online?" And so I was like "Do you know what, I trust Reed and Florence. And so I'm gonna - I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna answer their questions honestly."
Reed Amber
We appreciate that.
Florence Bark
You know what, you know what as well, like we - our old format me and Reed didn't really get to share that much of our personal sex stories. And it was more focused on the guests and the guests coming in. So we were really there like creating that safe space for every single guest that came on. And since we changed podcast production companies in the summer last year, and the podcast has had a bit of like a revamp and refresh with a theme. And since then we've been sharing a lot more of our personal stories. So like, that's kind of when I guess we really had to start testing our limits. Because I think like, before, when I was in my like, last - like the longer relationship I was in, like, he wasn't that keen on me talking about him that much, but it was kind of okay, because it wasn't really the format of the podcast. When it came to the new format, it was a lot more like - we really had to have that conversation with our partners and be like, "Hey, is it okay if I talk about like, all of our sex life? Like what are the limits?"
Reed Amber
Everything, yeah. "What are you cool with? What do you think you're not going to be cool with?" It's, it's all about communication and checking in, right? The worst thing would be - well, I mean, it's not even the worst thing - if someone that we knew was like, I didn't want you to say that - I mean, luckily, with the miracle of the internet, and editing, we can cut it out. It's just a bit of a pain in the arse for the production company. And also, I mean, there are little things that both Florence and I still don't necessarily feel comfortable with talking about. I mean, for example, like me talking about my tickling fetish. I didn't talk about that for years. Still.
Florence Bark
That is so true.
Reed Amber
It was a real challenge for me. I think it was like this year and last year, mainly, I've really just leaned into it and owned it. Tried to abolish the shame and the embarrassment around it. And I honestly I will never look back. I feel like - I feel like me, you know, I feel so good about it. I don't feel like I'm - because it's all about being so open and honest online. And then I'm like, "Yeah, just tell everyone everything." And then I've still got this dirty little secret that I'm keeping hidden from everyone. And it feels really hypocritical. "Yeah, own your kinks and fetishes, except I'm not even owning my own." So that was like really liberating. I was like, "Fuck yeah!"
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I wanted to ask about that. Because the last time we spoke was kind of like, when you were, I guess, like near the beginning of your journey of like speaking about your tickle fetish, like more publicly. And so I guess I just wanted to hear about, like, how that whole process was? It sounds like it was a really positive one.
Hannah Witton
And like, where you're at now with it? And also, also just kind of like, backtrack: how did you even discover you had a tickle fetish? Like, where did that come from? And when did you start to kind of like, realise, "Ooh, this is something I'm into?"
Reed Amber
It was.
Reed Amber
Yeah, well, the thing is, with a fetish, you don't discover that you have it, because you - you almost always have it. And it's only when you're older, you realise that's a sexual thing. But also, it's also hard to explain because you've grown up with it. Because a fetish is something that is almost like fundamental to your pleasure. It's almost like part of your DNA. It's something that you're obsessed with. Maybe something that you've repressed. Often or not it comes from like an experience in your adolescence or realisation or something that stays with you and then turns into - maybe from, for whatever reason turns into a sexual obsession. And for a long time, I repressed it because I thought it was - I had again, a lot of shame, a lot of embarrassment, a lot of like, negative feelings towards it. It was very, very secretive. I didn't tell anyone for years.
Florence Bark
I don't think I even knew about it for ages.
Reed Amber
For a long time. I mean, I, it took me like maybe two or three years to even tell my ex and I was in a relationship with him for seven years, and he tickled me as well. And I still couldn't get the words out to be like, "I have a tickle fetish. Like, it turns me on. Like, this is something that I masturbate to only." You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, rather than just being like, "Oh, we're just playing and this is like part of our sex life." Rather than kind of acknowledging like, "No, this is like a crucial part of my sexuality."
Reed Amber
Yeah, absolutely. Crucial part .That - I think that's one of the reasons why I find it so hard to orgasm with with people - when I'm on my own even, because I have to focus so hard on that fetish - and if I'm not focused on that fetish, I - yeah, It's almost impossible for me to come unless I'm thinking about things that are similar. So another couple of my fetishes - like I really, really, I always think about bondage. I always think about consensual non-consensual play. Which for people who don't know - and a trigger warning right now - is rape roleplay or rape fantasy. Ravishment fantasy as some people prefer to call it, which is nice. I prefer that because there R word can be quite triggering And, and that also ties into like, feet stuff. I don't think I have a foot fetish but I definitely have a huge foot kink. There's, there's so many things that are revolving around it, but the main one is the typical fetish. So yeah, it's been a journey, that's for sure.
Hannah Witton
And just briefly like, what is the difference between a kink and fetish? For people who may be trying to wrap their heads around that?
Reed Amber
Okay, so a kink is more like an uncommon turn on that you may have phases in and out of, you know, depending on who you're with, depending on what excites you online, depending what you discover. But ultimately, it's not something that you need to have to make you orgasm. A fetish - lots of people have fetishes, but not as much as kinks. Most people have kinks. You know, a kink will be like hair pulling, joking, spanking, I'm trying to go for loads of BDSM stuff because that's what you think of.
Hannah Witton
Anything non-normative as well. And so like, there's a very limited amount of things that are considered normative. So.
Reed Amber
Yes, that is true. Yeah. And then fetish is something that is fundamental to your pleasure. It's something that, again, happens in childhood through an experience or something, or just a realisation. And it's, it's an obsession, it's something that you can't get away from you. I mean, yeah, you can repress it. I tried to repress mine for years, but it always rears its ugly head, or hilarious head.
Hannah Witton
Beautiful head!
Reed Amber
Beautiful head. I mean, I just the epitome of my tickle fetish is waiting for my boyfriend to fall asleep, so I could go and masturbate to tickle porn. And literally sitting there like, like terrified that he's gonna wake up and see me. The amount of shame in that is - it's just and I sympathise with people who are fetishes, because it can literally run your life. It can be everything, especially when a fetish is -
Hannah Witton
Especially with that shame around it as well and kind of like the different things that you're trying to do to kind of satisfy that fetish. But then also hide it from people and then also dealing with the like, internalised shame. Like, oof, yeah, there's a lot going on there.
Reed Amber
And even if like a fetish is harmful to you or other people, there are so many different things. We were talking on - we were talking about tickle fetishes and fetishes on a BBC podcast called Tricky, Hannah and I, which is really fun. Amazing. That was like, I think my tickle fetish awakening, where I was like, I felt empowered about talking about it.
Hannah Witton
Your tickle fetish debut.
Reed Amber
It just, it changed everything for me. And then we would - there was, I can't remember her name but there was a dominatrix on there who was talking about a guy she knew who had a fetish for being made to throw up. And, and it was like, it's not that he necessarily wanted to throw up, it's that the idea of that turned him on so much. That was the thing that got him off. So, you know, just talking about like, the physical reaction from throwing up that much, the what it does to your teeth and your throat. And, you know, he he couldn't make himself throw up because he lost his gag reflex, because he wanted it so bad. So it would have to get really violent to the point where it was, like too much. And that's really hard to do, when that's the only thing that you think about that you want to happen to get you off, like what the fuck do you even do?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I don't know.
Reed Amber
I wouldn't know either. I mean, I would say go see a therapist like immediately. For your health - go see a therapist anyway, if you have a fetish.
Hannah Witton
Even just to like, help deal with the shame and stuff as well you're experiencing.
Reed Amber
The shame. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Florence Bark
There's so much shame around kinks and fetishes, I think. Especially fetishes, because it's something that you've sort of like had your whole life. And it's quite of a - it's quite a process, as Reed said, to get it as like, awaken inside you Yeah, like be able to talk about it with people. =
Hannah Witton
And it's something that you don't have any control over as well.
Reed Amber
No control. Like, you know, again, I felt guilty for a long time, I felt wrong in the head, I felt - it's confusing as well, because depending on your experience, a lot of the experiences we have as children are with parents, family members, close friends, and that can be really confusing, because it turns into something sexual and you're like, "Oh, my God, like Freud was right, I wanna fuck my dad!" You know, all this shit. It's like, no, no, that's not the case at all. It's just your adolescent brain is taking a situation and turning it into something else.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's got lodged in your brain somewhere and then interpreted into something like completely different and it's manifested itself as a sexual fetish.
Reed Amber
It's fascinating.
Hannah Witton
Florence, any kinks or fetishes you want to share?
Florence Bark
I do actually have - I have one that I'm actually unsure whether it's a kink or a fetish, because I always thought it was a kink. This is - it's quite random. It's lactation. Like I really get - I really get - you understand this now, soon, maybe soon, when you're gonna lactate with a baby?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'll send you some videos! This one's for you, Florence.
Florence Bark
Yeah, just send me some free porn! And yeah, I guess I don't know really how I - I don't know how I started getting into that. I guess I just kind of had this realisation that I really liked nipple play. And then it sort of went from "Well, is it just nipple play? Or is it like the idea of someone feeding from me?" So I started getting really turned on by that. And I explored it with a partner at the beginning of 2020. And that was - it was just such an amazing exploration. I always thought it was a kink because I was like, "I don't need that to, to get off. But it's so like, so fun. And I masturbate about it a lot." And the reason why I think like, I'm confused why it's a fetish or a kink is because I realised that something happened in my childhood that made - that's why it's kind of like a thing for me, because when I was younger, there was this moment when I was playing with a friend. And it was kind of like, like, - you know, when you're kids you do that kind of like mummy baby roleplay like play time. And I remember she - I was like, "Oh, yeah, like suck on my nipple" for like, as a kid. You know? It doesn't mean anything back then. And then - and then I remember feeling like, "Oh, that was really nice. You know, you can do more if you want." And then she didn't play with me again.
Florence Bark
And I felt so much shame around that moment because I was like, "Why won't she play me again? What did I do? Like, I obviously did something really bad, I did something wrong."
Hannah Witton
Aw!
Reed Amber
What turns us on is around shame.
Florence Bark
Exactly.
Reed Amber
Think about the things that you actually think about when you're just about to come, when no one else is around, and sometimes they're so extreme they shock you. Yeah, and a lot of it is because it's taboo or surrounding shame, or we shouldn't be masturbating over it. And it's like, there's nothing wrong with that. It is a fantasy. It doesn't mean to say that we want that in real life, even though that thought makes us think we want it in real life. It's not. It's a fantasy. It's so different - when I fantasise about tickling, it's so different in reality than it is my fantasy. And it took - it takes fucking ages to figure that out. And you're like, "Oh, okay, well, why is it not exactly like the way that I perfectly imagined in my brain?" And it's just not.
Florence Bark
The fantasies are never like reality.
Hannah Witton
But they have - fantasies have a time and a place, you know,? You can absolutely enjoy them for what they are. Florence, I'm really curious about how you explore a lactation -
Florence Bark
Without lactating?
Hannah Witton
- yeah, yeah, fetish or kink without lactating. I wanna know - what are the workarounds?
Florence Bark
The most hilarious thing, when I was doing with that partner back then, we got oat milk involved. And I would have like oat milk in a little glass next to the bed. And I would just, like keep dipping my fingers in it and like dripping over my nipples. And he would be like, lapping the oat milk from my boobs.
Reed Amber
That was so good.
Florence Bark
We didn't do - we didn't do that bit very much. That was a really interesting exploration. I found out a lot about myself and like, like, why - like how much I like - like, how far I would take that fetish as well, because there's obviously like a lot of people are really into the whole, like, mummy baby roleplay. And we did experiment with that, during that time. And I found it quite hard to be able to initiate the words, like the dirty talk around that scenario. And like, he would be really into that. So I'd be trying to like, you know, say things that would help him out in that situation. And I think I realised that I was like, "You know what, I think that for me is taking a little bit too far. It's not necessarily about the mummy baby roleplay." Like, that wasn't really what was turning me on.
Hannah Witton
It's about the kind of physical thing of lactation.
Florence Bark
Yeah, it's about - yeah, I guess about the thought of actually producing something that can nourish someone, and like they can feed from you. So like the thought of a partner just being able to -
Reed Amber
It's so intimate.
Florence Bark
Yeah, it's a really intimate thing. Being able to feed from me, like it's such a turn on. And I also have like a vampire kink and it's funny because we were talking about Twilight before.
Reed Amber
Feeding!
Hannah Witton
Ooh, that's sort of feeding!
Florence Bark
Exactly. So I'm like I just wanna nourish people. Just want to, you know, give up my juices.
Hannah Witton
With your milk, with your blood.
Hannah Witton
What about like, nourishing vagina juices? Does that kind of like have a similar effect?
Reed Amber
Yeah, you might have some malnourished peeps out there if it's just on blood and tit milk but, you know, we can try.
Florence Bark
You know what sometimes times I masturbate - this is so weird - sometimes I masturbate to the idea of, if I'm using my like suction toy, I have this thing in my head that I'm being like - something's being sucked out of me.
Hannah Witton
It's all connected! [crosstalk] Go on, Florence.
Florence Bark
I remember how I discovered the lactation thing now. I was watching Working Mums, have you ever - have you ever watched that?
Hannah Witton
No.
Reed Amber
Yeah, so good! You gotta get on it, it's on Netflix.
Florence Bark
It's a show on Netflix. Okay, you really need to now, Hannah.
Hannah Witton
I know, I'm gonna be a working mum!
Florence Bark
There was a scene where one of them had just had a baby, really full milky tits. And her and her husband were on odds or something or she was having an affair with a younger guy and she was like, "These are hurting so much." And he was just like, "Oh, you know, just, you know, I'll feed from you, I'll take the milk from you." And when I saw that scene happen, and like the fact that he was really into it, and like just sucking from her boobs, I was like, "Oh my god, I'm so turned on."
Reed Amber
They're real! They're good!
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Reed Amber
What you were saying before about the sucking thing - like I have a huge kink, I would say kink for machines. And like again, like I don't want to say the word slavery but like kidnapping and like I imagine all like these girls, all these people like strapped to machines being like sucked of their orgasm juices, and that made me think exactly of that. Obviously if we can throw in tickling in there as well that is heaven.
Hannah Witton
That sounds so dystopian!
Florence Bark
It really does
Reed Amber
Yeah, it's like the fucking places my mind goes. It's all fucked. Which is why I want to make some porn like actually go there, and like create these machines that fuck these women and literally milk them of their fucking orgasm juices. Like, oh my god, yes.
Florence Bark
I'm pretty sure there is vampire film out there - can't remember what it's called. It was quite random. But there was a whole like human milking facility. Milking through blood.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Reed Amber
Yes. Yeah, that shit turns me the fuck on. I'm like, oh, yeah. I mean, it's - we're going, we're going, you know, lowest of the low, the shame here of like, yeah, these aren't just people anymore. They're just, they're literally just cash - they're just cows. Like, they're just being milked against their will and used as food. And yeah, there's just a lot going on.
Hannah Witton
I fully support you in this dream to like, make this porn. I want to see it happen.
Hannah Witton
Okay, sweet, yeah. Shall I give you premiere tickets?
Hannah Witton
You should put it on like a crowdfunding website and be like, "I'm gonna make this porn film, please help me."
Reed Amber
I might - that would be amazing.
Hannah Witton
Because you're gonna have to make all of these machines. So that's gonna be a big expense. And, and you know, if you want it to really be like a factory farm, then you've got - that's a lot of extras. That's a lot of people. It's really adding up the cost here. So.
Reed Amber
That sounds good. I wonder if crowdfunding would allow that or would it get shut down immediately.
Hannah Witton
Now I think of that, I'm like, hmm, sceptical.
Reed Amber
Yeah. Well, you can PayPal me. Follow my OnlyFans to fund this.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we're all about, you know, paying for your porn and supporting sex workers here. So, yes.
Reed Amber
100%.
Hannah Witton
We have some questions from Instagram. And actually, some of them really tie into what we've been talking about. Reed, you mentioned consensual non-consent earlier, and there was actually quite a few questions about that in terms of like, ethics around it. And then also somebody else who was saying that they really enjoy it, but they're like worried that they're like glamorising rape. And I wondered what your thoughts are on that.
Reed Amber
It's completely understandable, especially if you have enjoyed the idea of ravishment fantasy or consensual non consensual - CNC, as a lot of people in the sort of fetish world write it. Because it is confusing. And you know, fundamentally, that this is wrong, you shouldn't enjoy it yet that's what turns your mind on. In a real situation, real life situation, I truly believe that two consenting adults are allowed to do whatever they want to each other, even if it's extreme, and even if people disagree, but what needs to be said is that for something like this, for consensual non-consensual, you need to make sure your communication - not just communication, but your self awareness is so on point because it doesn't matter if you can communicate, if you're not aware that what what's happening to you or what you're doing is too far, and you can't - then you can't communicate it. So it's all about saying - like talking about it, talking about it till your ears bleed, you know? And not just talking about it before, but talk about it during and constantly checking in and making sure it's okay. Because if someone says, "Hey, I'm really into rape roleplay, let's do this. Yes, yes, yes. No, no, no, these are my limits. Don't do this. Don't do that."
Hannah Witton
And then off we go!
Reed Amber
And then during it the person's doing exactly what was said, - yeah, off you go - but then the person changes their mind or something feels a bit off, or they're not sure about it, they should be able to feel safe enough to say their safe word, or "Hey, like, I'm really not in, this is too far." And say no, and stop immediately. And you need to have that trust with somebody. I mean, trust is broad, right? Trust could be you meet somebody on a date and you just have a gut feeling of trust. That's also okay. It doesn't have to be like a long relationship of trust with one person. I've done a lot of ravishment fantasy CNC with people I've just met on a first date gone back to theirs and fucked and be like, "Hey, do you mind if I - like how do you feel if I start saying, like, 'no' while you're fucking me? And like, 'please stop'? Would you be okay with that?"
Hannah Witton
Because actually there's like a spectrum of it as well. Like, it could just be like, you're, you're having sex and you're like, like you said, like, "How do you feel if I start, like, protesting during?" But then also making get clear about what a real no sounds like. Like having that safe word. But then, or to the extreme of like, actually, like, enacting a scenario and kind of -
Reed Amber
Home invasion, kidnap...
Hannah Witton
- scripting like this entire thing. So yeah, it's like, it's not, you know, there's like, I guess a tamer end as well, like, a way to like, try it out as well, if it's something that you think you might be interested in.
Reed Amber
You're right, it's a big spectrum, you could just start off lightly. It doesn't have to be going into it, even if that's what our fantasies are. It can literally be like, "Hey, so while we're having some fun, while we're doing it, how would you feel if I start pushing you away? And saying no? Or how would like - could you try and force stuff on me?" Again, you would have to - cuz a lot of the time it's a tone as well, it doesn't have to be like, "Before we do anything, these are our safe words." You know? Or the single one safe word, which, of course, still needs to be respected. But it can literally be in the moment, we're just like, "Whoa, whoa, that's too much." And your partner should be able to tell, even if you didn't say safeword like, "Oh, just to double check, is that a no?"
Hannah Witton
Exactly, that's the the thing, like just checking in and be like, "Are we - are you still playing? Or is that real?" You know, like,
Reed Amber
Is that real? Yeah, the check in. And I appreciate check-ins so much like, I can't do anything rough now unless I'm checking in from all fucking sides. It's just so - it's so important to me, otherwise, I can't enjoy myself.
Florence Bark
It's, it's a really interesting thing, I think, because so many people have this kink. I guess because it is, you know, especially as a woman, it is the ultimate thing that we shouldn't want.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Florence Bark
Which makes it like, like, which makes it so interesting, sexually, because we all want what we don't really want during sex. Things like, it's like, I had this whole thing with anal sex for ages where I was just like, "I really don't want it to happen. But why does it turn me on so much?" Because I don't want it to happen. Yeah, I don't know. It's a hard one.
Hannah Witton
But it goes back to what you were saying about like fantasy and reality, like really separating those two things. Because non-consent or rape in real life, like, you have not consented, that is a complete violation. Whereas what like, a kink is, is that it's, it's playing out a scenario. It's, it's make believe, right? Especially like roleplay, you're pretending basically and you have consented to what is happening. And so there's like, you can play out these fantasies, whilst knowing ultimately, you are safe.
Florence Bark
Yeah. I think it also really depends on how you communicate with your partner around this thing, because especially with that question about romanticising it, because if you - if you met someone new and you were like, "Oh my god, yeah, I really like it when you just do things without asking me" and like, all of those things then like, it's the conversation and the way you describe it. You need to have a conversation that's like, "Actually, I am consenting to this. And like, this is how things are gonna go. And like these are my safe words. And all of this." Because I think quite a lot of people that maybe aren't in the kind of like BDSM kind of sex world that don't really know about like, safe words and stuff like that might talk about this kind of play in a slightly problematic way that could then romanticise it and then so someone sleeps with them. "Oh, she really liked it when I did this with her. So maybe the next girl will like that too." And that's when it gets really confusing.
And that is actually, I think, a problem when people aren't - like if people don't listen to conversations like this, and they just sort of know within themselves that that's what they like but they don't really know how to communicate it in a good and safe way, then it can teach other people wrong behaviours. And also, it's what we've learned from porn as well. And that's why there's been a huge problem with young people and, like taking sex, like, being unconsensual, being rough when someone didn't ask them to be rough. "But I learned that from porn as well."
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And obviously the behind the scenes of porn, like it varies. But ultimately, like what you're seeing on screen, like if there, you know, if there has been a conversation around what they're going to do, the consent piece, and like boundaries, and all of that kind of stuff, that's happening off camera. Like if that is taking plac, you as the consumer of the porn, you're not seeing that. Although there have been some, like, porn directors and stuff, who I've seen more recently, where they have, like, the porno part, but then they also have like these, like, these interviews with the performers as well.
Reed Amber
Because they - there's one of my favourite websites, I don't know if I should name and shame it. But yeah, kink.com. They, for every single video, they have a pre-interview with both participants or however many participants and then an after one. And often or not, it's the male performer asking the female performer. And so they ask a bunch of questions like, "So you know, like, how did you get into the scene? Like, what is it about this that you enjoy? Do you like bondage? What don't you like? What should we avoid? How far can we push it?" You know, that kind of thing. And then afterwards, it's a roundup interview, where it's like, "What did you like? What didn't you like?" But when when things are copied, and posted free online -
Hannah Witton
That's cut.
Reed Amber
- that interview, those two interviews are normally cut out completely, or we skip them. Because we don't want to watch - we're not like ready to sit down and listen to the real performers and all their feelings. We just want to see them get fucked. I'm guilty of that, too. But that's, that's what we're missing. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, it depends on what mood you're in. And I love the fact that those things exist. So they are there for people to access if they if they want to. And also just like the just the mere fact that they exist acknowledges that there is something to say about it, right? There is a conversation to be had. And there is stuff going on behind the scenes that you're not seeing, whether or not you're interested, you know, you could - by all means keep the porn that you watch as a fantasy, and don't dive into what they were actually thinking and feeling during that scene. But at least know that there is the backstory there is - even if you don't like - even if you just want to watch the fucking and be done.
Florence Bark
Just seeing it on the screen. Right? It's good. Seeing it there underneath.
Reed Amber
We do with film! We go to the cinema, we watch a ridiculous action film, and we still allow ourselves to be suspended in belief, but go home and go like, "Oh, yeah, you know, Keanu Reeves is going back home to his girlfriend." You know, that kind of thing? We know that it's not real.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Or, like, "Ooh, how did they do the VFX? And that, like, I want to see a behind the scenes or interview with the actors about like, how they got into the role."
Reed Amber
And we don't do that with porn. Maybe we don't want to do that with porn because it becomes not sexy for us anymore. We want to be so suspended in that belief. We're happy to believe it's super fucking real.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think there also might be like a disconnect in terms of like, if you start to be interested in ,"Oh, how did that performer feel during that scene? Like what was the negotiation like? And what was the aftermath?" Like, then you're like, acknowledging that they're a full human being. And not just like this fuck toy in this video that you've watched. And I think a lot of people aren't ready to acknowledge that the performers that they see in porn are full human beings. And that becomes an issue.
Florence Bark
I think, I think we just need to learn more about porn in general. I think they need to teach porn sort of stuff in sex education at schools. People just need to know like, how it's made, where it comes from, why we have porn. Like we need to have all that information to really then go into our own sex lives and not see porn as sex education.
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely need something parallel to it.
Reed Amber
Yeah, well, they're now teaching consent. In the UK, the government went, "Oh, yeah, we did a survey and about 90% of females said that they have been sexually harassed. So maybe we should teach consent in schools now." They have only just done that this fucking year. Like how have they been so slow just to teach consent is sex education? It is unbelievable. But at least we are making steps. In ways, you know, it's it's getting there even if it's going to take a long ass time.
Hannah Witton
A long time. It's interesting actually, I was interviewed someone from Brooke about the like new relationships and sex education guidance that came out last year, I think - I don't know. Recently. And she said that the word pleasure doesn't appear in it anywhere.
Reed Amber
Oh, my days. What are they doing? What's the fucking point?
Florence Bark
No! That's so mad.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. So it's like, it's great that we have it, but it very much is just like, we still have a long way to go to kind of have the kind of the kind of holistic sex education that we need in order to actually be able to then go out into the world as adults with, you know, the appropriate information, knowledge, and skills, and tools to be able to navigate sex and relationships. However you want to do that. Yeah.
Florence Bark
If we don't talk about pleasure, then we're not talking about - like -
Reed Amber
What are you talking about?
Florence Bark
- we're only talking about like, the technical, like the male ejaculate, really. And that's the end of sex. And that's why sex exists. That's the only like- if you don't talk about pleasure, that is the only way you're talking about sex. That means like vagina owning people don't have any say in the situation. That's so problematic.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's not great. So a bunch of people had other questions. And actually, there's one that kind of brings us back to our kink fetish chat. And so - and this again came from like a few different people in different ways. Which was basically around: how to find people to explore your kink or fetish with?
Reed Amber
Oh my lord.
Florence Bark
That is tricky. That is a tricky one and especially if you just - if you're not really in the community, you don't have friends that are open about kinks and fetishes.
Hannah Witton
People with kinks and fetishes are everywhere
Reed Amber
Yeah. They are rife and I love it. But we hide so hard away from it, which is not fair. Like even dating apps. I mean, there are a couple of dating - couple dating apps that the reason why I find my boyfriend is because I was able to use a dating app where I could put all of my sexual preferences out on on my dating app, and that's because that was super important for me. And then find someone who that wasn't like too fucking terrified of it. But in response to that I was also banned from Tinder, OKCupid, and I had a warning from Hinge because I was open about my sexual preferences.
Hannah Witton
Because like you had the word fetish in your like bio or something?
Reed Amber
Yeah, I had - I did have CNC but I didn't explain what CNC was. Yeah, I had - I did have tickling fetish in there. I had some other - bondage in there. And so yeah, they were just like, "Absolutely not. This is not what this app is about." Which I think is ridiculous. You know, like why? Why can't I find somebody who's going to match me ultimately?
Hannah Witton
Because you have to be over 18 to be on these apps anyway, don't you?
Florence Bark
You have to invoke put about these things to find the people that you're going to connect with because how else are you going to do it? Otherwise imagine like, oh my god, matching with people on Hinge and then having to have a conversation with every single person. "Hey, this is my like - these are my sexual -" even like going on dates and like having the conversation again and again and again. Yeah, people are like "No, yeah, no, yeah, nope, not into that."
Reed Amber
No, it's too much admin. No one's got time for that. Like online dating is so long anyway. Let alone if you're having to literally like hand-vet people to see if they're going to match with your sexual preferences, kinks, fetishes. There are some things that you can do. Like a good website is FetLife, which is kind of like the fetish Facebook, that's like quite a big one.
Florence Bark
That's quite extreme, though. Like I feel like people like me - I wouldn't go on FetLife because I just - I'm a bit scared of it.
Reed Amber
Yeah, the way that it looks is quite scary, you know, it's all like black and red and, because there are no limits to what you can post on there, it can be quite terrifying. But if you had a kink for squashing birthday cakes, like sploshing, and it was actually innocent, FetLife would be exactly where you'd want to go. Or you know, like vampire fetishes, vampire meetups, where everyone goes round and pretends you're vampires and sucks blood and you know, like they would - that kind of thing will be on there but because it is sort of like a wild west. There is a lot on there that can be scary to see. Even I get scared. Some of the shit I've seen on there I'm like, "Whoa, buddy, like, I don't know how I feel about that."
Florence Bark
I feel like that's the same with all dating apps to be honest. Yeah,
Hannah Witton
But FetLife also isn't like a specific dating site, is it? It's more like, like you said, like a social network. There's like groups and meetups, and it's more just like about connecting with people in general.
Reed Amber
Yeah and like putting yourself out there. So you can like upload your photos and put yourself out there. So it's, it's almost a way of getting yourself out there and feeling comfortable with it. It was a really good way for me to start owning my tickle fetish. I was, I was out on that site before anything else. And then once I felt comfortable and found people in my community - real people, not just like, people, I thought were going to be weird, or, you know - real people in London in the UK, that seemed normal. And then I was like, "Okay, right." I mean, this is - it's hard to find, especially when you have quite a niche fetish, but FetLife was a good starting point. It does come with a fucking warning.
Florence Bark
My favourite dating app, Feeld, is really great for sharing all of those things.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I swear, like every sex educator on Instagram these days is like working with them, but I'm like, I'm so monogamous and married. I'm like, "What is this? This is not around when I was dating?"
Florence Bark
It is a site for everyone that is sort of open about sex. People that are interested in just casual hookups, non monogamy. And then, I think mainly like, kinks and fetishes, or just being you know, being able to just put out there on your profile, like, what you want and what you want to find. That's why Feeld is - it's the best that I've like ever sort of stumbled across.
Hannah Witton
Playing the field, I get it.
Reed Amber
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's how I meet most of my fucks, that are on the same...
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Reed Amber
Yeah, that's how I met most of the fucks that I have -
Florence Bark
You met your boyfriend through Feeld!
Reed Amber
Just because - yeah, met boyfriend through Feeld, just because I was able to write out who I am, what I do, what I'm into. And yeah, just, completely vet people. You know, they're not going to message me if they're not into it.
Florence Bark
Oh you know what, both the people I'm fucking at the moment I met on Feeld too.
Reed Amber
Yeah, nice.
Hannah Witton
What a success story!
Florence Bark
Success stories everywhere.
Reed Amber
You want to pay us now? Hannah will take a cheque.
Hannah Witton
I'll take a commission. Yeah. I love that. What - we talked about, like you guys being really open about sex and stuff, but somebody wanted to know, was being open about it ever difficult for you? Like, was there ever a time when you really couldn't talk about it, didn't want to talk about it? Because clearly by the time you guys met, you were already in that world. So like, how did you get to that point?
Reed Amber
A long time, I think. Long - baby steps, and you're kind of proving to each other that being open about it is okay, and like, nothing bad's gonna happen. And you're not going to get judged for it the way that you think you will.
Florence Bark
That's kind of why we started it in the first place. Because I think that me and Reed had like a lot of things to say when it came to sex, and we wanted to talk about it. And we finally found that person that we could just like, sit there and chat for hours about all these things. We were like, "Oh, I haven't really ever had this conversation like this with anyone else." And that was such like a, you know, it was such a big moment for us and our, like, how we felt about ourselves that, yeah, that's why we continued to just try and be more open but I guess - it's interesting because I think Reed, you grew up - your family's always been quite open about sex. Mine were not. My family never spoke about sex. My parents didn't talk about it at all. Like I would have boyfriends and take them up to my rooms - my rooms? My one room at home. And like my parents would know what was going on up there. But like still just -
Hannah Witton
Not mentioned?
Reed Amber
Oh, shit.
Florence Bark
No, apart from once when I was 17. And I had a one night stand with someone and the condom broke and I needed to get the morning after pill and I was trying so hard to find where to get it myself. And at the end of the day, I was stumped. And I was - I had to go to my mum and be like, "I need some help. I don't know what to do."
Florence Bark
And she said - I know she wouldn't like that she said this now, because she is really super supportive of what we do, but she was just so disappointed in me. And she was just like, "You shouldn't be doing this" like blah blah blah like all of these things. And like made me feel so guilty for going out and having sex and -
Reed Amber
It's not even like a pat on the back for yeah, you tried! At least you tried with the condom!
Hannah Witton
Did you find that morning after pill? Did you get the pill you needed?
Florence Bark
I did yeah, I did. I took it - I took it in such a dramatic way as well, we went down to - we lived in Brighton - went down to the beach, and it was like a stormy day at the sea, and I was like "Here's the pill. Here's a bottle of water. I'll take it." I don't know why we went down to the beach to do it.
Hannah Witton
It's got to be a momentous occasion like - well, this is the kind of shit that they write into Skins. And so you need to have like Skins moment.
Florence Bark
Yeah! I think, you know what, probably because my mum didn't want to do it at home and so my dad could see, most likely.
Reed Amber
Yeah, maybe. I mean, even then, like our parents are just so poorly informed. Like we were poorly informed, imagine what they were - it was just, it's just a succession of just fuckery. I'm so glad that we're doing this now so we can help educate our children and our children's children and hopefully parcel the good down otherwise we're fucked.
Hannah Witton
And like, I had a very, like, open household growing up when it came to this kind of thing, but still didn't escape from a lot of shame. Like, I remember finding, like, finding like this wart kind of thing like around my vulva. And I must have been, I don't know, 15 or 16. And I went to the doctors. I knew, like, at this point, I like knew that I could go to the doctors in confidentiality like and I could do that myself. And they said, it wasn't anything. It wasn't an STI or anything like that, though. I can't actually remember what it was. But they just gave me some pills, I think like antibiotics to take. And I remember hiding myself taking these because I didn't want anyone I was living with to ask me any questions about it. And it was just for a week and then it went away.
Reed Amber
For a week though, poor, like, young Hannah. Every time you have to take a pill.
Hannah Witton
Juts like, nobody ask! Nobody ask me what this is! But yeah, it's so weird to think about like, even though I consider like having grown up in quite an open household, the fact that like, I still - there is still some limits to like, "Ooh, no, like, I can't talk about this." Even though like the doctor even told me like, it wasn't something sexual. It was still on my vulva. So it's like, "This is a no go zone." Look at all of us now!
Reed Amber
Yeah, I truly believe that why I think talk so openly about sex is because my mom actually has Asperger's. And so sex isn't really something that she does feel shame about. Like, she can get awkward about it. But no shame.
Florence Bark
Interesting.
Reed Amber
So there's a lot of stuff. And so like talking to her about it is like very, I don't know, medical? Or just like very normal. What becomes awkward is the feelings part. And like the part she doesn't understand where I'm like, "Yeah, so like my boyfriend, I we're gonna go on a date with a girl." And she's like, "Okay. I hope you, I hope you three have a nice time."
Hannah Witton
There we go, love that! Like, we're always at the end but that's one thing that we haven't talked about, which was - I wanted to bring up ethical non monogamy as well. Quickly, where are you guys at with that? Because I know that it's kind of like a new thing that you're exploring. What's going on? Or at least like what kind of like tips would you have for people who are like in those early stages of being like, "oh, maybe this is something I want to try?"
Florence Bark
Yeah, I would just say conversations, obviously. It's the only way to really get into it is talking to partners and being like, "Oh, actually, I've been thinking that maybe I saw something about non monogamy and I was interested in this." And kind of approaching it from a very like exploratory - is that a word? - way. And just so it's something that you're both kind of exploring together. I had - I've been having like conversations about it with partners that I am seeing. So I'm seeing someone at the moment who has a long distance partner so he has - yeah, he's he's poly I guess, because he's got multiple relationships. And then also I kind of realised at the moment that dating is kind of just non monogamy, because you're just dating so you're just dating loads of people so people are non monogamous without even realising most the time.
Hannah Witton
It's an interesting one though, because I think the cultural like mainstream narrative is that you date lots of people in order to find one person to then settle down with so it's still like it's still non monogamy but a quest to monogamy.
Reed Amber
Yeah, yeah. And the society obsession that we've created where it's like, we've got this weird kind of turn, where it's all like monogamy is everything and that's what you want to be and you want to have that one person, one true love. But then also you get non monogamy popping up and then now there's this weird balance of like monogamous people thinking, "Oh my god, I'm really boring because I'm not monogamous." Or like, you know, and it's not like one is better than the other. They are just different. It's not. it's not a competition. It's not like non monogamy is the next level because it means you can fuck loads of people - doesn't work like that. I think that's such a like a bad way of looking at it. It works for some people.
Hannah Witton
And it's not monogamy that's bad, it's like monogamy as the default. And not like realising like, "Oh wait no I don't have to do this if I don't want to." Like there are other relationships structures exist
Florence Bark
if you are in a non monogamous relationship that doesn't mean that you're consistently fucking other people. It doesn't mean that you have to always be fucking other people. Actually, it kind of turns out that if you're allowed to do it, you don't really want to do it as much.
Reed Amber
You don't fucking do it! Because you have that freedom! And you do it a couple of times and one of the best bits about non monogamy that I find is that if I do fuck somebody else or my partner does or we fuck another but like it brings us so much closer together because it it gives us an element of gratitude that we have somebody that works well for us, and "Oh that was enjoyable but that that's not what I want for the long term. That's not what I want forever." My partner hasn't tried the non monogamy thing but in my last relationship I was non monogamous, and now we're sort of figuring it out together. I actually spoke to him about this and I was like, "What's like the one thing that that helped you figure out that the non monogamous side was going to be okay?" And he was like, "I think it was when you sat me down and said like I'm not going to do anything that you're not completely comfortable with."
And I think a lot of people assume that I'm just going off and fucking other people and he just has to deal with that. And it's not. You're doing it together. With each other and it's not a competition. It's not - it's very much like, "Oh my god, I'm very excited for you and your date tonight, baby, like I hope it goes well. I hope you have a nice time and a nice fuck and enjoy yourself and I want you to feel the same about me." Because it's almost like you're cheering for your best mate to get laid. But then you get to fuck your best mate too!
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love that. Um, well, Reed, Florence, thank you so much for joining me and just thank you so much for being so open! And just like sharing all about your fetishes, your kinks, and all of that and all of your wisdom and everything as well.
Reed Amber
Yeah, thank you for the invite! It's been beautiful.
Florence Bark
So nice to see you as well. It's been so long.
Hannah Witton
I know. Where can people find you online and your podcast and everything?
Florence Bark
Yeah, so our podcast is on all podcast platforms. F**ks Given. That's F * * K S Given or you can search Come Curious which is c o m e. And then everything else is @comecurious.
Reed Amber
And I was going to say, and our personal accounts. Florence - you can find Florence as @florencebark. And then I am @reedamberx but with R E E D. But I mean, my account's blacklisted so you have to write the whole fucking thing in to find me. You'll just find a bunch of other like fucking fan accounts that'll pop up, it's really annoying.
Hannah Witton
You want to find a real deal.
Florence Bark
We also have our podcast on YouTube at the moment and we've been doing a lot more vloggy kind of stuff.
Florence Bark
So instead of just sitting on our bed talking about a sex subject, we're now trying to do the whole vlog thing because I'm still in London and Florence's in LA at the moment. So doing stuff together is kind of tricky!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but you can get that like transatlantic vlogs thing going on.
Reed Amber
Yeah, baby!
Hannah Witton
I love that. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all so much for listening and go and check these amazing women out.
Reed Amber
I love you all. Bye.
Florence Bark
Thanks, Hannah! Bye everyone!
Hannah Witton
Bye!